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Perseverance or Eternal Security

JM

Member
I just wanted to present what I believe the Bible to clearly state...this is a touchy subject and I'm not trying to force you to believe as I do, only consider what I post.

Many articles have been posted about this from both its promoters and detractors. It brings comfort to some but can be abused by the unrengerated and misinterpreted by the carnal mind. I want to set you at ease by stating, simply, the Bible doesn’t speak of a disobedient faith only obedient faith. The Bible tells us, ‘that all who are by faith united with Christ, who have been justified by God’s grace and regenerated by his Spirit, will never totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but certainly persevere therein to the end.†Henry Thiessen It is because Christ fully paid the penalty for sin, the born again believer has security and assurance of salvation. It lies not in spiritual performance but in God’s work that saves. We know that God has a purpose (Job 23:13), Christ died to save a people (Matthew 20:28) and nothing can separate us from the love of Christ (Romans 8:35-38). We also need to take note of the promise made in Romans 8, “he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son...†This work will be done, even if detractors of eternal security avoid this fact by trying to tell us it doesn’t mean what it plainly states. Latter in Romans 11:29 we find that God’s gifts are without repentance or irrevocable. (see also John 10:27-30)

The Epistle of Romans is such a powerful statement of these truths, see for yourself.
• Romans 4:1-4 justification by faith
• Romans 4:5-12 justifying faith defined
• Romans 5:1-11 seven results of justification
• Romans 5:12-21 sanctification through Christ

Our security is found in Christ. The sacrifice of the sinless Son of God works forever, it never fails, “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.†Rom. 5:8-10. Pauls states in Hebrews 7:25 “…He is able to save them to the uttermost…†because Christ always lives to make intercession for the believer. Unless the Father denies the prayer of the Son, unless there is disagreement in the Godhead, the Father always hears the prayer of the Son. It’s because Christ is praying for us (John 17), we have faith until the end.

Classic scriptures such as Philipians 1:6 and 1 Timothy 1:12 speak of believers “Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.†(1 Peter 1:5, Romans 16:25, Jude 24)

Objections and concerns should be raised and considered but only in light of what the word of God teaches. For instance, an common objection concerning lazy conduct, but in light of 1 John 3:9 we are told that no one that continues in sin can be saved. (Romans 6:1, 2 Timothy 2:19, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:2, 29; 3:14, 5:4) The same can be said for Christian service “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.â€Â

I’ll do what I can to handle objections to this thread, and encourage you to trust Christ for your salvation, setting aside the worries customs can instil. Look to the word of God.

Peace, JM.
 
I like to witness the perseverance of the Holy Spirit delivering Eternal security. It instills hope that Jesus works among us today and has not forgotten one of the least of his promises he made to mankind because it was His Father's will.
 
JM said:
I just wanted to present what I believe the Bible to clearly state...this is a touchy subject and I'm not trying to force you to believe as I do, only consider what I post.
Nice post Jason - let's see who bites - I doubt you will get any response if any -

Many folks around here actually dislike being eternally secure - they would rather believe they can lose it so they can stand before God and pat themselves on the back. They don't understand grace.

They still think because one is truly safe then that gives them a license to sin which we do not teach. The man who is secure will most likely always live more separated and seek to be more holy in his walk than those who believe they can lose it - the "lose its" are living off the power of the flesh and after a while fall away. Just look at the TV preachers that have fallen - they all believed in losing it.

Their idea of grace is:
"God, out of grace, will accept my works." Which is works.

God bless
 
JM,

I want to set you at ease by stating, simply, the Bible doesn’t speak of a disobedient faith only obedient faith.

Thanks for you comments on the scriptures. However, I have to strongly suggest that you may need to read further in your Bible.

One of many, many...

James 5:19-20 KJVR
(19) Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
(20) Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.


In Christ,

farley
 
lol, I understand the point you're making and I'm laughing at myself!

The statement you quoted is in error, it's far too strong to make. I should have wrote something along the lines of, 'you can't claim to be saved and live like the Devil the rest of your life!'

James 5:19-20

A few points...

"Converteth" doesn't mean you are born again, it means "to the worship of the true God" or repent. Strong's #1994.

In v. 20 "d e a th" refers to the d e a th of the body on earth.

I believe it's more consistent in light of John 17 (where we see Jesus's high priestly prayer for HIS people) that James is speaking of convincing a sinner to repent of his sins before God. In v. 20 "save" is sozo which mean's "to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction." With this in mind, I'd say the person isn't lost but in danger of punishment or correct by the Father and not loss of salvation.

Many better men then I have disagreed with my understanding. I used Strong's found on http://www.bible.crosswalk.com I'll post more a little latter.

Peace

JM
 
JM,

A few points...

"Converteth" doesn't mean you are born again, it means "to the worship of the true God" or repent. Strong's #1994.

Ahhh...on this one point we are in harmony!

I see it as meaning 'repent', also.

First off, who is he speaking to? "Brethren,"...Believers! Members of the church! Fellow Christians!

"...if any of you do err from the truth,...", should any obedient Christian stray from the truth (lost, alien sinners don't have the truth to err from), and become a disobedient Christian.

"...and one convert him;...', should one of you lead a disobedient Christian, brother (sister), to repent, and restore him (her) back to the fold, where he will become an obedient Christian, again.

"...shall save a soul from death,...", shall keep a soul from hell.

We'll just have to disagree on the rest though.

I just wanted to present what I believe the Bible to clearly state...

Obviously, all of the sheep of the flock, are not of the same fold. Therefore, it seems to me, that some sheep will find salvation that were not elected to it.

John 10 KJV
(16) And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

In Christ,

farley
 
JM,

Oops...

I'm sorry, JM. I've misinterpreted your post somewhat.

I apologize.

"...the Bible doesn't speak of a disobedient faith only obedient faith.", I shouldn't be wrestling with you, or anyone, over this point.

I just leaped in full speed on OSAS issues.

My regrets,

farley
 
John 10 KJV
(16) And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


Good observation, but I think you missed interpreted who the sheep are in this verse. His sheep of the "fold" are the Jews (to the Jew first) the other fold he is calling are the Gentiles (then the Greek).

That's one of the prophecies from the OT that Jesus came to fulfill that all nations and Gentiles would come to know the true and living God.
 
John 10 KJV
(16) And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


Good observation, but I think you misinterpreted who the sheep are in this verse. His sheep of the "fold" are the Jews (to the Jew first) the other fold he is calling are the Gentiles (then the Greek).

That's one of the prophecies from the OT that Jesus came to fulfill that all nations and Gentiles would come to know the true and living God.
 
The sheep not of the fold of the Jews were those out in the nations. Ephraim Israel living as pagan rejects from their Jewish brothers.

Yahshua, in this passage in John, is directly alluding to Ezekiel 34. Please read for the validation of everything I said above.
 
Yes, I can see some merit to this interpretation. Other sheep than those in this fold can mean two folds, at least, or possibly many more.

But, if we assume that you are right, and there are only two folds, one Jew and one Gentile, and the Jews are the "elect" spoken of in the scripture, why are they evangelized if they are the "elect"?

Are they not predestined to salvation?

In Christ,

farley
 
farley said:
Yes, I can see some merit to this interpretation. Other sheep than those in this fold can mean two folds, at least, or possibly many more.

I would disagree. I'd have to see some indication of this as it relates to Ezekiel. And then again, what other sheep does he have? True gentile pagans don't know YHWH and care nothing for Hebrew culture or Jews.

His sheep (of the other fold) must be speaking of the lost sheep of Israel, which he said he alone came to find (Matthew 15:24). And these lost sheep are those Israelites out in the nations.

But, if we assume that you are right, and there are only two folds, one Jew and one Gentile, and the Jews are the "elect" spoken of in the scripture, why are they evangelized if they are the "elect"?

Are they not predestined to salvation?

Jews are not the elect. Jews are one family of the elect of two families YHWH has chosen (Jeremiah 33:24). They need Messiah because all need Messiah. The house of Judah was just supposed to know and be ready for when he came.

Isaiah 56:1 Thus saith YHWH, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my Salvation is near to come, and my Righteousness to be revealed.

As a whole, though, the house of Judah stumbled at the Stumbling Stone (a remnant remains, however). They are still called, as Israel, to be elect. Speaking of Jewish Israel, Paul says:

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

And, by the way...

Were you even talking to me?
 
wavy,

Actually, I was responding to both you and jpark. After reviewing your comment, I realized that I missed most of what you were actually saying.

I have to admit that at the time Jesus made the statement in John 10, there may not have been any Gentile sheep. Though, it would just be a matter of time!

Surely, you will agree that, now, Christ's flock has sheep that are Gentiles.

farley
 
Of course. Indeed. Yet, they are no longer "gentiles" in the eyes of YHWH. HalleluYAH.

("halleluYah has become more potent and has more meaning when I figured out what it actually meant; sadly, many people do not...)
 
something for consideration

it seems to me that i recall reading something about "the lambs book of life" and having your name written there and that it was possible to have your name "blotted out." That would certainly give a prudent man reason to reflect on the implications don't you think?
 
wavy and jpark,

jpark stated...
Good observation, but I think you misinterpreted who the sheep are in this verse. His sheep of the "fold" are the Jews (to the Jew first) the other fold he is calling are the Gentiles (then the Greek).

I think that there is scripture to support your view, as well as wavy's interpretation. If the chapters in book of John are in chronological order (which I've never questioned before), then in the fourth chapter we find the message regarding the Samaritians, and the woman at the well...

John 4 KJV
(39) And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
(40) So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.
(41) And many more believed because of his own word;
(42) And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.
(43) Now after two days he departed thence, and went into Galilee.

In my small brain, the passage above shows evidence that Christ's flock of John 10 must have contained many different folds of sheep, both Jew and Gentile.

In Christ,

farley
 
Huh?

John 4 KJV
(9) Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.

Based on the above passage, I've always assumed they were Gentile!

A little research has shown that they were a Hebrew mix. Go figure!!

I stand corrected.

But...wait a minute...I see this as being yet ANOTHER fold of sheep in the flock...right?!!

In Christ,

farley
 
Yes, they were part Israelite mixed with Assyrian settlers. She makes a direct claim to being a descendant of Yaakov/Jacob in John 4:12.

But the key is to make all people into one fold. Not one called Israel or Jews and another one called the "church" or gentiles.

If we go back to the scriptures to validate Messiah's Words (something he would encourage; Ezekiel 34), we'll find that this one fold is Israel.
 
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