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This post is for people who are able to think past political slogans.

Pregnancy is a very complex situation and fetal viability is by no means guaranteed There are numerous situations in which either the life of the fetus and/or the life of the mother are imperiled. Aside from such conditions as ectopic pregnancy, in which the fetus develops in the fallopian tube (outside the uterus) which a) has no chance of viability and b) if not aborted, the mother stands an excellent chance of dying, there are other conditions in which it is impossible for the fetus to survive outside the womb. One of these is that either the brain or a vital organ such as the heart, lungs, or kidneys, does not develop properly, guaranteeing that, if the fetus survives to term, it will die very shortly after birth, often in agony. It is senseless, heartless, and cruel not to abort this type pregnancy.

For those who mindless spout the political propaganda slogan that "abortion is murder", I challenge you to witness a situation in which the newborn baby dies an agonizing death. Think of the severe trauma that this causes the mother, any family members that may be present, the attending medical personnel, and others, then see how that jibes with your "Christian" values.

I can assure you from first person knowledge that the greatest majority (by far) of people in the medical profession. who attend births are decent, moral, empathetic people, many, many of whom are Christians, and all of whom have devoted their professional lives to giving the best care to women and babies possible.

It is stupid and mindless to reduce the issue of abortion to a propaganda slogan that is divorced from faith and reason. I am thankful that, during this election, those issues designed to remove the rights of women, their families, and their medical caregivers, from making decisions regarding fetal viability and freedom, were overwhelmingly defeated.

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You need to know how abortions are performed to understand the reasons for them and that by far the vast majority are not murder. Obviously you don't!

You're a staff member and an administrator, yet you behave in an insulting, unChristian manner.

Why are you still intent on continuing with infantile insults? It's a strong indicator that you don't have any rational or biblical reason for believing that abortion is murder. It is definitely an indicator of your cognitive dissonance. It really does seem as though you've never actually studied the arguments for or against, but only go by the right wing propagandists tell you.
 
It is murder. It is the unjustified taking of a human life.


Abortion is murder. Fine, no argument here. As Jesus said, if a man hates his brother without cause, then he has committed murder in his heart. If abortion is murder, then do not commit murder, and walk so thee in thy faith. But you do not present yourself as one who is content to simply live by your faith, but rather you appear to be as one who runs with the mob chasing after the harlot with a stone in your hand, reluctant to cast it, yet threatening with it none the less.

Abortion is murder. So what? Do not have an abortion, walk according to your faith and you will do well. But you want more, you want to stand in judgement over others you deem as being "unjustified" in the taking of a potential human life.

Abortion is murder. Since you sit yourself in the seat as the judge, what is your penalty for someone who has committed murder by having an abortion? Should they be put to death? Is there room for mercy? What is your Judgement on the matter?

And one last question on matter here, but since you must stand upon the Law and upon the scriptures to make your claim that abortion is murder, then by what right do you lay claim to judgement as the avenger of the blood? If you have no right, then you are just another who caught up with the mob chasing after the harlot while worshipping her fetus.
 
Abortion is murder. Fine, no argument here.
Ok.

As Jesus said, if a man hates his brother without cause, then he has committed murder in his heart. If abortion is murder, then do not commit murder, and walk so thee in thy faith. But you do not present yourself as one who is content to simply live by your faith, but rather you appear to be as one who runs with the mob chasing after the harlot with a stone in your hand, reluctant to cast it, yet threatening with it none the less.
I don't understand what your point is here.

Abortion is murder. So what? Do not have an abortion, walk according to your faith and you will do well. But you want more, you want to stand in judgement over others you deem as being "unjustified" in the taking of a potential human life.
"So what?" I strongly suggest you do a study on the Bible's use of "justice," "injustice," and the numerous other times that issues of justice and injustice are brought up without actually mentioning the words. See what God's view of those things is and then compare it with what you have said.

"Do not have an abortion." Are you using the common rhetoric of the world here? I often see them say, "If you're against abortions don't have one." If that's what you're saying, that is a thoroughly worldly argument, not a Christian one. Can you imagine if Wilberforce simply said, "If you don't like slavery, don't own one," and left it at that? Ignoring such incredible injustices is an affront to God.

Abortion is murder. Since you sit yourself in the seat as the judge, what is your penalty for someone who has committed murder by having an abortion? Should they be put to death? Is there room for mercy? What is your Judgement on the matter?
Of course there is room for mercy and God will deal justly with them.

And one last question on matter here, but since you must stand upon the Law and upon the scriptures to make your claim that abortion is murder, then by what right do you lay claim to judgement as the avenger of the blood?
Where have I said or even implied that I am the "avenger of blood?" What you even mean by that?

Again, I strongly urge you to look up what God says about justice in the Bible. There is no neutral ground on abortion and those who remain silent are complicit in it.

If you have no right, then you are just another who caught up with the mob chasing after the harlot while worshipping her fetus.
What do you even mean by this?
 
Abortion is murder. Fine, no argument here. As Jesus said, if a man hates his brother without cause, then he has committed murder in his heart. If abortion is murder, then do not commit murder, and walk so thee in thy faith. But you do not present yourself as one who is content to simply live by your faith, but rather you appear to be as one who runs with the mob chasing after the harlot with a stone in your hand, reluctant to cast it, yet threatening with it none the less.

Abortion is murder. So what? Do not have an abortion, walk according to your faith and you will do well. But you want more, you want to stand in judgement over others you deem as being "unjustified" in the taking of a potential human life.

Abortion is murder. Since you sit yourself in the seat as the judge, what is your penalty for someone who has committed murder by having an abortion? Should they be put to death? Is there room for mercy? What is your Judgement on the matter?

And one last question on matter here, but since you must stand upon the Law and upon the scriptures to make your claim that abortion is murder, then by what right do you lay claim to judgement as the avenger of the blood? If you have no right, then you are just another who caught up with the mob chasing after the harlot while worshipping her fetus.
Abortion is not murder. That is a political phrase created to convince people who are unable to grasp the larger picture. An abortion is a medical procedure performed for a number of different reasons. Anyone who doesn't understand that has no knowledge of the truth.
 
There are situations that are completely out of the womans control where there is no possible way a baby can survive and it will rupture and could put the womans life at risk and needs medical procedure. All that is understandable. I mean just an example if I baby dies in the womb that would need medical procedure, they all forms of abortion.

Medical emergencies are understandable.

Intentionally taking the next generations life just for convenience that's another story. That's taking a life and using up medical resources for no valid reason.
 
I understand that. But Free doesn't. He thinks it is murder, so to him it is murder. If he is afraid of committing murder, then he should not get an abortion. Simple!
If you read my response, you would realize how flawed this argument is. This is what I meant when I mentioned to jaybo that when one actually studies the arguments by pro-abortionists, it becomes apparent just how fallacious and poor they are. Apart from that, science (embryology) and reason tell us that the unborn are fully human. The Bible and the law tell us that the intentional, unjustified killing of a human is murder. Abortion is the intentional, unjustified killing of a human and is, therefore, murder.
 
If you read my response, you would realize how flawed this argument is. This is what I meant when I mentioned to jaybo that when one actually studies the arguments by pro-abortionists, it becomes apparent just how fallacious and poor they are. Apart from that, science (embryology) and reason tell us that the unborn are fully human. The Bible and the law tell us that the intentional, unjustified killing of a human is murder. Abortion is the intentional, unjustified killing of a human and is, therefore, murder.

What is the penalty for having an abortion?
 
Pregnancy is a very complex situation and fetal viability is by no means guaranteed
Of course, but how does that justify abortion?


There are numerous situations in which either the life of the fetus and/or the life of the mother are imperiled. . . . One of these is that either the brain or a vital organ such as the heart, lungs, or kidneys, does not develop properly, guaranteeing that, if the fetus survives to term, it will die very shortly after birth, often in agony. It is senseless, heartless, and cruel not to abort this type pregnancy.
This is misleading, at best.

"If the rib cage of a developing fetus does not form properly, the heart can develop outside of the body without the protection of skin, muscle, and bone.

If a fetus survives until birth, immediate treatment to cover the heart or place it within the body can be life-saving but risky.

While there are cases of successful surgery, this remains a very serious condition with a low chance of survival."

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319929

Since such a child has a chance at survival, which contradicts what you said, isn't trying to save its life the ethical and Christian thing to do?

The same goes for those with the brain born on the outside:

https://www.liveaction.org/news/parents-refused-abort-baby-brain-outside-skull-receive-miracle/

https://childrenswi.org/medical-car...conditions/infant-complications/encephalocele

Or intestines:

https://www.liveaction.org/news/mom-refuses-abortion-baby-intestines-outside-body/

https://childrenswi.org/medical-car...conditions/infant-complications/gastroschisis

Other organs:

https://childrenswi.org/medical-car...r/conditions/infant-complications/omphalocele

For those who mindless spout the political propaganda slogan that "abortion is murder", I challenge you to witness a situation in which the newborn baby dies an agonizing death. Think of the severe trauma that this causes the mother, any family members that may be present, the attending medical personnel, and others, then see how that jibes with your "Christian" values.
And, yet, abortion is often an agonizing death for the unborn and is known to cause psychological trauma to the mother.

I can assure you from first person knowledge that the greatest majority (by far) of people in the medical profession. who attend births are decent, moral, empathetic people, many, many of whom are Christians, and all of whom have devoted their professional lives to giving the best care to women and babies possible.
Births, yes; abortions, well, it doesn't really seem like it.

It is stupid and mindless to reduce the issue of abortion to a propaganda slogan that is divorced from faith and reason.
It is far more than just a "propaganda slogan," as anyone who has read and studied the arguments knows. The propaganda is referring to "abortion is murder" as "a propaganda slogan." To be anti-abortion is far more reasonable and in line with the Christian faith. Early church documents and theologians show that their faith led them to be anti-abortion, because that is the only rational conclusion one can come to when reading the Bible and reasoning through things.
 
If you read my response, you would realize how flawed this argument is. This is what I meant when I mentioned to jaybo that when one actually studies the arguments by pro-abortionists, it becomes apparent just how fallacious and poor they are. Apart from that, science (embryology) and reason tell us that the unborn are fully human. The Bible and the law tell us that the intentional, unjustified killing of a human is murder. Abortion is the intentional, unjustified killing of a human and is, therefore, murder.
The arguments of anti-abortionists are both fallacious and poor, The unborn are not "fully human". They are in the fetal development stage are incapable of surviving outside the womb. Abortion is not the intentional, unjustified killing of a human! That is propaganda! It is a medical procedure that, for a variety of reasons, terminates a pregnancy.

We can go on and on about this, but I'm thankful that you have stopped the personal attacks on those, including me, who disagree with your position.
 
The arguments of anti-abortionists are both fallacious and poor, The unborn are not "fully human". They are in the fetal development stage are incapable of surviving outside the womb.
You are arguing, as all pro-abortionists do, that because fetuses at a certain stage in development cannot survive outside the womb, that they are not fully human. One reason this is a poor argument is that viability is getting earlier and earlier, due to the technology available. It could be that one day viability will be right up to the point of conception.

Another reason this is a poor argument is because it argues that humans are only human once they are capable of surviving on their own outside the womb. An obvious problem with this is the logical conclusion that when born persons cease to be able to survive outside the womb on their own, or never become able to survive outside the womb on their own, then we could terminate them as well. And we are seeing that occur more and more around the world with euthanasia, so we know the logic I presented is sound. But another similar conclusion can also be seen--infants are incapable of surviving without help, so we should be able to end their lives as well.

Of course, another main reason the argument is poor is that some aborted fetuses would have been able to survive.

The superior view is the substance view, since it is not subject to such disturbing and irrational conclusions. Fetuses are fully human because they are made of the same stuff all humans are made of. They are simply at the earliest stages of development, vulnerable, and deserving of all the protections afforded born persons.

Abortion is not the intentional, unjustified killing of a human!
But it is, since human fetuses are human.

That is propaganda! It is a medical procedure that, for a variety of reasons, terminates a pregnancy.
Calling it a medical procedure doesn't change a thing. It's a medical procedure for the sole purpose of intentionally and, in the vast majority of cases, unjustifiably ending a human life.

We can go on and on about this, but I'm thankful that you have stopped the personal attacks on those, including me, who disagree with your position.
It was not I who was doing the personal attacks, but let's just keep them stopped.
 
The arguments of anti-abortionists are both fallacious and poor, The unborn are not "fully human". They are in the fetal development stage are incapable of surviving outside the womb. Abortion is not the intentional, unjustified killing of a human! That is propaganda! It is a medical procedure that, for a variety of reasons, terminates a pregnancy.

We can go on and on about this, but I'm thankful that you have stopped the personal attacks on those, including me, who disagree with your position.
At the moment Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb what was he ?

I say he was fully human and fully God .
 
What is the penalty for having an abortion?

There isn't one anywhere, that I know of.

Then why do you spend so much time insisting that abortion is murder? Under our laws, there are different degrees of murder, each carrying subsequent penalties. I suppose if a woman had an abortion, then that would be premeditated murder with intent. That would make it first degree murder by definition, which most often comes with the penalty of death or life in prison. Would you be willing to put a women to death for having an abortion? How about putting them in prison. If you wish to call abortion murder and against the law, then what punishment to you seems fit?

If you can't answer what punishment that you would see fit for a women who has an abortion, and just keep deflecting, then you are nothing but one of lost in the mob chasing after the harlot, with no judgement of your own, but hold up the threat of God's Judgement as the stone in your hand instead. Are you without sin that you should hold up that stone as a threat?
 
Where have I said or even implied that I am the "avenger of blood?" What you even mean by that?

The avenger of the blood, it's in your laws, you should go learn of them. I implied nothing, I only asked by what right under the law would you claim as the avenger of the blood.
 
The avenger of the blood, it's in your laws, you should go learn of them. I implied nothing, I only asked by what right under the law would you claim as the avenger of the blood.
I never said you implied anything. As I asked, where have I said or even implied that I am the "avenger of blood?"
 
Then why do you spend so much time insisting that abortion is murder?
Are you seriously arguing that because there is no law against abortion that therefore it isn’t murder?
 
Are you seriously arguing that because there is no law against abortion that therefore it isn’t murder?

which degree? what punishment?

If you can't answer what punishment that you would see fit for a women who has an abortion, and just keep deflecting, then you are nothing but one of lost in the mob chasing after the harlot, with no judgement of your own, but hold up the threat of God's Judgement as the stone in your hand instead. Are you without sin that you should hold up that stone as a threat?

guess I have your answer as one chasing after the harlot....
 
which degree? what punishment?
If only it were as simple as you make it out to be. Once again, are you arguing that because there is no law against abortion that therefore it isn’t murder?

guess I have your answer as one chasing after the harlot....
This doesn't even make sense and has nothing to do with the discussion.
 
If only it were as simple as you make it out to be. Once again, are you arguing that because there is no law against abortion that therefore it isn’t murder?

Doesn't matter what you want to call it. If 3rd degree MURDER might get you 5-10 years in prison, or if 2nd degree MURDER might get a stiffer punishment of 10 to 25 years in prison, while 1st degree MURDER would get the stiffest penalty under the law, that being up to multiple life sentences in prison, or even the ultimate payment in death.

Now being that all these degrees of MURDER have varying degrees of punishment for the said crimes, and also seeing that you are unable to define any sort of penal measures for the act of an abortion, then rightly, how can you justify calling it murder? Perhaps that argument would best be made by the avenger of the blood.


This doesn't even make sense and has nothing to do with the discussion.

Oh, come on now. I know you now the story in the bible, about the mob of people running after the adulterous women seeking to stone her to death; when Jesus stepped in and said let he who is without sin cast the first stone. You are akin to those of the mob running after the adulterous women with stones in their hands, ready to judge the harlot with child, with no penal measure under the law, carrying with them only the threat of God's judgement.

Paul himself was a murderer, yet he became chief among the Apostles. I suppose there is room for redemption for those who have had an abortion. But what of those who worship at the alter of the unborn fetus? Do they require yet another sacrifice for redemption?
 
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