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Predestination and Calvinism

K2CHRIST

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I understand that opening this thread is like opening the proverbial can of worms. I can hardly believe I am doing it. Especially because in my own mind the problem between freewill and predestination. They both make perfectly good sense to me. God knows and control what I will choose, but I can still choose. It's that simple to me. But apparently not for everyone else. Some really seem to struggle over this issue. In fact it has become a major arguments over and over in Christianity, and because it seems so easy for me my real problem comes from trying to understand why others have a problem with it. I guess that is why I posted on it.

So the question I would like to propose is:

Why do you think Calvinism and predestination verse freewill and a persons ability to choose has caused such problems?
 

turnorburn

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They discard foreknowledge because with out that you get...

can_small.jpg
 

Cygnus

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Why do you think Calvinism and predestination verse freewill and a persons ability to choose has caused such problems?

Because man is a prideful creature and wants to think they have something to do with their salvation.
 

reba

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Very often it is because those who profess they have no self will are rude arrogant snobs.
The Grace of the Lord is not found in them ..
 

for_his_glory

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We always make choices, some good, some bad. God knows the intents of our heart and there will he judge all of us.
 

K2CHRIST

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I find all the posts so far interesting, but again many seem to have that "they think" used against one side or the other. I see where God both knew what He was doing and still does, but the same God has given me life, freedom, and the ability to choose. I personally a see both predestination and freewill as both being correct and designed by God.

I like the fact that God knew what He was doing and still does. I wouldn't want a God that was less than that. He choose me, and I like it as someone who was courted by another who loved them. At the same time I like my freedom. So a truly great God would be One that was both in control and aloud me my freedom. I want a God that I can seek and find, and who will reward me for seeking Him. ( Heb 11:6)

So the only thing I don't like is a theology that lead people away from our Lord Jesus Christ. If a person uses predestination as a reason to not seek God, that bothers me. It's not the fact that God is in control, but the suggesting that control means we don't need to seek the Lord which gets to me. On the other hand if someone uses their freewill as an excuse to lead people away from God, that is equally disturbing to me. Some seem to suggest that because we have freewill, everything is ok for us to do. No, that is not right. What is ok to do is to ask God what is best and consider what He says before doing what we do.

So both freewill and predestination can be used to accuse others and also lead people away from the Lord. It's not the freewill theology or the predestination theology that bother me, but the application of them. I think we need to look at that. :)
 

reba

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So both freewill and predestination can be used to accuse others and also lead people away from the Lord. It's not the freewill theology or the predestination theology that bother me, but the application of them. I think we need to look at that.

AMEN and AMEN
 

for_his_glory

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Great post K2CHRIST. I have never seen anyone put this all together as you have done and like reba said...........Amen, Amen
 

Cygnus

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So both freewill and predestination can be used to accuse others and also lead people away from the Lord. It's not the freewill theology or the predestination theology that bother me, but the application of them. I think we need to look at that. :)

Do you have any examples?
 

JohnDB

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Pelagianism is an excuse no matter Whom you blame your behavior upon.

So either God made you do it or the Devil made you do it.

But

Then...just because God knows what you will choose doesn't mean that He made you do it or the attitude you had when doing it.

Because if love is to be genuine it must be real and freewill.
I can make a gizmo to tell me that it loves me...but it means nothing.

If I achieve mind control and make someone say that they love me... It means nothing.

But those who choose freely to love me have all the power of persuasion.

I think God is of the same opinion.
 

brother Paul

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And to as many as received Him, He gave the power to BECOME the children of God...
 

wondering

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HI K2CHRIST

I like what you say here.
So the only thing I don't like is a theology that lead people away from our Lord Jesus Christ. If a person uses predestination as a reason to not seek God,

So, you've said a mouthful.
If GOD is going to choose me and it's all up to Him, and I've already been either chosen or not

WHY would I ever have to witness to anyone OR WHY would I ever have to seek God??

This is such a simple concept that the other side (predestination) cannot seem to grasp it.

Of course it leads people away for the Lord! It's kind of like Islam. They think Allah has pre-planned everything. So all you hear them say is something to the effect of "if Allah wills it". So what they do is be very passive and just wait for Allah to do everything. IOW, if God wants me and has chosen me, He'll come and get me and I have to do nothing.

Does that sound reasonable? NO. But some insist on this.

JohnDB makes a lot of sense. But sense doesn't seem to be a part of the TULIP crowd. Yes. I said that. Hope the moderator doesn't delete. GOD MAKES SENSE. And nothing of predestination makes sense.


But you're interested in the application of one or the other. Sometimes I'm slow and I don't really know what you mean by this...

Wondering
 

Radagast

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Especially because in my own mind the problem between freewill and predestination. They both make perfectly good sense to me.

The Bible requires us to accept predestination. God is in control of everything.

The Bible requires us to accept free will, at least in some sense. We choose to do things.

Reconciling those two things is the big theological debate.

Why do you think Calvinism and predestination verse freewill and a persons ability to choose has caused such problems?

Because some people like simple answers to complex questions.
 

Radagast

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Very often it is because those who profess they have no self will are rude arrogant snobs.
The Grace of the Lord is not found in them ..

I'm very disappointed that the staff here say things like that.
 

Cygnus

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Pelagianism is an excuse no matter Whom you blame your behavior upon.

So either God made you do it or the Devil made you do it.

But

Then...just because God knows what you will choose doesn't mean that He made you do it or the attitude you had when doing it.

Because if love is to be genuine it must be real and freewill.
I can make a gizmo to tell me that it loves me...but it means nothing.

If I achieve mind control and make someone say that they love me... It means nothing.

But those who choose freely to love me have all the power of persuasion.

I think God is of the same opinion.

When I read the bible I see God choosing us and then giving us to Jesus....not us choosing Jesus.
 

Cygnus

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HI K2CHRIST

I like what you say here.
So the only thing I don't like is a theology that lead people away from our Lord Jesus Christ. If a person uses predestination as a reason to not seek God,

So, you've said a mouthful.
If GOD is going to choose me and it's all up to Him, and I've already been either chosen or not

WHY would I ever have to witness to anyone OR WHY would I ever have to seek God??

This is such a simple concept that the other side (predestination) cannot seem to grasp it.

Of course it leads people away for the Lord! It's kind of like Islam. They think Allah has pre-planned everything. So all you hear them say is something to the effect of "if Allah wills it". So what they do is be very passive and just wait for Allah to do everything. IOW, if God wants me and has chosen me, He'll come and get me and I have to do nothing.

Does that sound reasonable? NO. But some insist on this.

JohnDB makes a lot of sense. But sense doesn't seem to be a part of the TULIP crowd. Yes. I said that. Hope the moderator doesn't delete. GOD MAKES SENSE. And nothing of predestination makes sense.


But you're interested in the application of one or the other. Sometimes I'm slow and I don't really know what you mean by this...

Wondering

Wondering, in your above post you said:

"WHY would I ever have to witness to anyone OR WHY would I ever have to seek God??

This is such a simple concept that the other side (predestination) cannot seem to grasp it."

I'm truly surprised you asked that. Why would I witness to anyone? Because God may be using me to preach the gospel to that individual bringing them to salvation. Now if that's not a good enough reason...what can I say to you?
 

wondering

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Wondering, in your above post you said:

"WHY would I ever have to witness to anyone OR WHY would I ever have to seek God??

This is such a simple concept that the other side (predestination) cannot seem to grasp it."

I'm truly surprised you asked that. Why would I witness to anyone? Because God may be using me to preach the gospel to that individual bringing them to salvation. Now if that's not a good enough reason...what can I say to you?
I don't know which side you're on, so I don't know how to answer.

If you're on the side of predestination and no free will, then I would have to ask you, again,
WHY would I have to preach the gospel if I am already chosen by God to be saved??

If God chose me to be saved, I'm certain He'll be able to come through on His promise, no?
He IS God, after all.

If you're on the side of free will and the ability to choose, then the question is not for you.

Wondering
 

Cygnus

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I don't know which side you're on, so I don't know how to answer.

If you're on the side of predestination and no free will, then I would have to ask you, again,
WHY would I have to preach the gospel if I am already chosen by God to be saved??

If God chose me to be saved, I'm certain He'll be able to come through on His promise, no?
He IS God, after all.

If you're on the side of free will and the ability to choose, then the question is not for you.

Wondering

I thought I answered that above....but, here goes again. God chooses to have you hear the gospel through a sister, brother, friend, preacher...who ever.

John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

John 15:19 If you were of the world, it would love you as its own. Instead, the world hates you, because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world.
 

WIP

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I thought I answered that above....but, here goes again. God chooses to have you hear the gospel through a sister, brother, friend, preacher...who ever.

John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

John 15:19 If you were of the world, it would love you as its own. Instead, the world hates you, because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world.
Wasn't He talking to His disciples rather than mankind in general?
 

Cygnus

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Wasn't He talking to His disciples rather than mankind in general?

The next verse says this:

17This is My command to you: Love one another.

Was verse 17 for His disciples rather than mankind in general?
 
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