Predestination

[Iconoclast]

Predestination is Practical

Like many, when I first encountered predestination, I immediately put God in the dock and pled injustice: “But that’s not fair. How could a loving God choose some and not others?” That’s a common objection to this doctrine, and it certainly was mine. But God, true to his character, was tender...

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In some churches, it is a word that conjures up images of an angry and capricious God who acts arbitrarily to save some, but consigns most sinners—including deceased infants—to eternal perdition. For many professing Christians, it is the mother-of-all-swear-words.

Let the pastor breathe it in the presence of the deacon board and he risks firing, fisticuffs or worse. A God who chooses is anti-American, anti democracy. It bespeaks a long-faced religion, a doctrinal novelty invented by a maniacal 16th century minister whose progeny manufactured a theological “ism” that has plunged countless souls into a godless eternity.

In other churches, it is a cherished word that describes a beloved doctrine, one that bestows comfort and unshakable confidence that not one maverick molecule, not one rebel subatomic particle exists outside of God’s loving providential control—even in the matter of salvation. Want to start a lively conversation? Then utter the word:

Predestination.

A Biblical Doctrine

Few doctrines in the history of American religion have assembled such a pugilistic resume. And yet, there it stands, in the plainest and most unapologetic of terms, in Ephesians 1:5, “In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ.” And again six verses later: “In him (Christ) we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.” Those Ephesians texts, along with Romans 9, much of John 6, and Jesus’s high priestly prayer in John 17 toppled my commitment to freewill theology two decades ago. Acts 13:48 threw the knockout punch.

Disputed and disdained though it may be, predestination and its sibling, election, are plainly taught in Scripture and every exegete must make peace with it. In Chapter 3, paragraph 3, the Second London Confession sets forth the doctrine this way:

“By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice.”

Many evangelicals—including pastors—see the doctrine as best left alone, forbidden theological fruit, fraught with speculation. It’s just not practical, they argue. It’s a debate for seminary classes with no real bearing on the full-court press of everyday life.

But John Calvin, the pastor-theologian often credited with inventing predestination, argues to the contrary:

“This great subject is not, as many imagine, a mere thorny and noisy disputation, nor speculation which wearies the minds of men without any profit; but a solid discussion eminently adapted to the service of the godly, because it builds us up in sound faith, trains us to humility, and lifts us up into an admiration of the unbounded goodness of God toward us, while it elevates to praise this goodness in our highest strains.”

Lorraine Boettner, author of perhaps the most extensive single volume ever written on predestination, agrees:

“This is not a cold, barren, speculative theory, not an unnatural system of strange doctrines such as many people are inclined to believe, but a most warm and living, a most vital and important account of God’s relations with men. It is a system of great practical truths which are designed and adapted, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, to mold the affections of the heart and give right direction to conduct.”

A Beautiful Doctrine

Predestination is a beautiful doctrine. Its beauty lies in the fact that a holy God has revealed it to us in his Word. And, as Calvin and Boettner point out, it has significant practical application. Predestination is not merely a topic for discussion and debate among curious seminary students. It tells us much about the character of God:

• God is meticulously writing the story of history according to his own script. Though we speak of “accidents,” really, there are no accidents. Nothing will take place today that hasn’t been carefully planned before in eternity past by an all-powerful and good Creator.
• God loves sinners. We should never get over the stunning reality of this statement. Though we have rebelled against him, yet God sent his only Son to die in the place of sinful men and women to rescue them from sin and death (Rom. 5:8). Christ, who was not guilty, laid down his life for the guilty (1 Pet. 3:18). He bore the wrath we deserve.
• God uses means to achieve his ends. Our Lord selects weak clay pots and sends them to the ends of the earth to preach the good news of his rescue mission in Christ (Rom. 10:14-15). He gives fallen men the unconscionable privilege of proclaiming his sin-slaying, death-defeating gospel.
• God’s glory is ultimate, not man’s. The outset of the Shorter Catechism famously marks out the chief end of man—to glorify God and enjoy him forever. God made us for his glory (Isa. 42:8). Every pursuit in life is to be done with an eye to the spread of his fame.

Predestination also says something important about us: apart from a unilateral work of grace, we cannot please God. We are dead in our sins, and dead men can do nothing (Eph. 2:1). Therefore, we ignore predestination to our own spiritual malnourishment.

 

[Iconoclast]

pt2;
A Practical Doctrine

Here are a few ways this often-maligned doctrine puts steel in our spiritual backbones.

1. Predestination means our salvation is as secure and settled as the God who selected us. If our inheritance is rooted in God—who chose us before the salvation of the world—then we cannot fall away. We did nothing to gain it. We can do nothing to lose it (Rom. 8:31-29). By his grace, God’s people will persevere to the end, even through many dangers, toils, and snares. This truth is a balm of comfort to saints who are wearied by the daily struggles of life, whose spiritual legs may be weakened by the daily war within and without. The God who chose you will surely keep you (John 10:28). Calvin:

“For there is not a more effectual means of building up faith than the giving our open ears to the election of God, which the Holy Spirit seals upon our heart while we hear, showing us that it stands in the eternal and immutable goodwill of God towards us; and that, therefore, it cannot be moved or altered by any storms of the world, by any assaults of Satan, by any changes, by any fluctuations or weaknesses of the flesh. For our salvation is then sure to us, when we find the cause of it in the breast of God.”

2. Predestination means our salvation is eternally grounded in a sovereign, good God, therefore, our sufferings, sorrows, persecutions, and defeats are not an accident. God is not taken off guard when we suffer. As Spurgeon put it, “All the hounds of affliction are muzzled till God sets them free.” And, of greater importance, as Paul famously articulated it in Romans 8:28, “God causes all things to work together for good for those who love him and are called according to his purpose.” God is never late. He never gets the wrong address. Though you may never fully understand it, your hurt is his instrument put to use in his indefatigable mission of remaking you into the image of his Son. God’s absolute sovereignty wed with his goodness is the best medicine for human anxiety.

Boettner draws on the words of Presbyterian pastor Clarence E. Macartney:

“The misfortunes and adversities of life, so called, assume a different color when we look at them through this glass. It is sad to hear people trying to live over their lives again and saying to themselves, ‘If I had taken a different turning of the road,’ ‘If I had married another person.’ All this is weak and unchristian. The web of destiny we have woven, in a sense, with our own hands, and yet God had His part in it. It is God’s part in it, and not our part, that gives us faith and hope.”

3. Predestination means we should be humble and thankful, not bitter, fearful or always spoiling for debate. Why did God choose to adopt me into his family? Why am I a Christian and (at least for now) my neighbor is not? Why was I born to parents who valued the church and treasured God’s Word? Why do I have the indescribable privilege of serving as a herald of God’s truth and serving God’s people. I can’t explain any of it except as Scripture does: It was the kind intention of his will (Eph. 1:5). I did not—could not—save myself. That it pleased God to do so should humble me and put thanksgiving on my lips every moment of every day—because God did it all, and I did nothing. My life could’ve been radically different, but because of his grace, it’s not. God has been good to me, has suffered long with me, and I must extend the same grace to others, particularly brothers and sisters in Christ who have yet to fully wrestle with this doctrine.

Like many, when I first encountered predestination, I immediately put God in the dock and pled injustice: “But that’s not fair. How could a loving God choose some and not others?” That’s a common objection to this doctrine, and it certainly was mine. But God, true to his character, was tender and patient with me. He eventually gave me eyes to see the beauty and life-stabilizing force of this unfathomable biblical tenet.

If God had given me what I demanded—justice—then I would be receiving the wrath my sins deserve this very moment. But he has given me—and millions of others along his unfolding timeline of history—something no human deserves: mercy. And there is nothing more practical than that.

 

[Iconoclast]

Calvinism, Hyper-Calvinism & Arminianism ..by W.R. Downing, used by permission
Arminians teach that it is man, not God, who chooses in the matter of salvation. They maintain, in effect, that God elects those who elect Him. God ratifies the choices of men; His election is conditional. Calvinism, on the other hand, claims that election is unconditional. It is based on nothing “foreseen” in man. It is one hundred percent the work of God. The doctrine of election is part of the broader doctrine of God’s absolute sovereignty which was discussed in chapter two. There are several erroneous concepts concerning what Calvinism teaches regarding election. First, election is not salvation. Election precedes salvation. The Father has elected certain persons unto salvation in Christ from all eternity. Paul writes: “He [God] chose us [the elect saints] in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him” (Ephesians 1:4). Election is an action that takes place supra-history, whereas salvation takes place in history. The latter occurs at the time an individual confesses Christ as Savior and Lord (Romans 10:9-10).



Second, election does not mean “to ratify” as in Arminianism; rather, it means “to select or choose out of”. Thus, when we speak of election in relation to God and salvation, we speak of that which God is doing, not man. God chooses His “elect.” All men are worthy of eternal death, but God elected a certain number unto salvation before the foundation of the world. Third, as alluded to above, God’s election is not due to His foresight or foreknowledge of whether or not certain men will choose Him. The Westminster Confession of Faith states: “Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions; yet hath He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.” 9 As we have already seen, the whole human race is guilty in Adam’s sin. All men are born dead in sin and incapable of doing anything that pleases God (Ephesians 2:1; Romans 8:7-8; Psalm 51:5; 58:3). They do not have the ability to choose God. He chooses them. Herein is a serious difference between Calvinism and Arminianism. According to the latter, God, in His divine foresight, looked down through the corridors of time and saw all of those who would choose salvation in Jesus Christ. Having this divine foreknowledge, He then ratified certain men’s choices of Him. Romans 8:29 is the classic passage which addresses the issue of God’s foreknowledge: “For those whom God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.” Is the Arminian understanding of foreknowledge in this verse that of Paul’s? Is the apostle merely speaking of divine prescience? Not at all! Verse twenty-eight, which precedes the verse under discussion, gives us the answer: “We know that in all things, God works for the good of those that love Him; those who have been called according to His purpose.” The whole order of salvation, as found in Romans 8:28-30, turns on the word “purpose” in verse twenty-eight. And it is God’s purpose, not man’s. This is of utmost significance.

 

[Iconoclast]

pt2.
Divine Election or Human Decision?
What, then, does the word “foreknow” mean? It is practically synonymous with “forelove.” Notice that in Genesis 4:1, we read that: “Adam knew his wife Eve.” Here the word “know” is used of the intimate relationship between man and wife. The same usage is found in Luke 1:34, where Mary relates to the angel Gabriel that she has never (literally in the Greek text) “known” a man; that is, she has never had sexual intercourse with anyone. In Matthew 7:23, speaking of some unbelievers, Jesus says: “And then I will declare unto them, I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of iniquity.” Does the Lord mean that He never knew who these men were? As the sovereign ruler of the universe, the one who gives life and breath to all mankind, does Jesus Christ not know who these people are? Is this possible? Of course not! What He means is that He never loved them with a saving love. Know, as it is used in this sense, is that intimate relationship which exists between God and His elect, based solely on His electing grace.

Regarding the biblical usage of “foreknowledge” in Romans 8:29, John Murray writes: “It means ‘whom He set His regard upon’ or ‘whom He knew from eternity with distinguishing affection and delight’ and is virtually equivalent to ‘whom He foreloved.’” 10 James Boice observes that in Scripture, “The word foreknowledge itself is never used in reference to events or actions—that is, as advance knowledge of what one would or might do—but always of persons, whose lives are affected by that foreknowledge rather than the other way around.” 11 To be sure, election is according to foreknowledge, but not foresight. Obviously, any Christian will affirm that God, as the sovereign Master of the rse, knows all things and thus foreknows all things. But God knows all things because He is the Creator of all, and everything exists according to His sovereign decretive will. He knows and foreknows all things from all eternity simply because He is God and has foreordained or decreed all that will ever come to pass. Logically, to insist that God merely knows Calvinism, Hyper-Calvinism & Arminianism by looking into the future is to insist that God is not sovereign. Such, of course, is not the God of the Bible. What then is election? Boettner writes: God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation, before the foundation of the world, rested solely on His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause, of God’s choice. Election, therefore, was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus, God’s choice of the sinner, not the sinner’s choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
There are a number of Scripture passages which support the Calvinist doctrine of divine election. Ephesians 1:4, which is one of the strongest verses in the Bible on this subject, has already been quoted above. In this verse we read that it is God who does the choosing from all eternity. Likewise, in 2 Thessalonians 2:13- 14, Paul states: “But we should always give thanks to God for you,
brothers, beloved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Again, it is God who has chosen the Thessalonians, not vice versa. In Acts 13 we read of Paul’s missionary activities in Pisidian Antioch (vv. 13-52). When the Gentiles heard his message of salvation in Jesus Christ alone they rejoiced: “they were glad and honored the Word of the Lord; and all of those appointed unto eternal life believed” (v. 48). Notice that those who believed were those who had been chosen by God to believe

 

[Iconoclast]

pt3;
Divine Election or Human Decision? 51 In Romans 9:10-13, Paul teaches that even before Jacob and Esau were born, or had done anything good or bad, God had chosen the former and rejected the latter. For what reason? “In order that God’s purpose in election might stand” (v. 11). The natural question then is: “Is God unjust?” (v.14); “God forbid,” says Paul: (v.14). “For He [God] says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion; so it does not depend on man’s will or effort, but on God’s mercy” (vv. 15-16). How much more obvious could the apostle make it? God’s election is unconditional. In Revelation 17:8 we read of those “whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world” (see also 13:8). Several things should be noticed in this passage. First, some names have already been written in the book of life before the foundation of the world and some have not. Will any be added? None! Will any be lost? None! The elect and the non-elect have been predetermined from all eternity. There is an absolute fixity to the number. It should be carefully noted that this is true in both Calvinism and Arminianism. Now, as in the Arminian a, if God foresees all who will choose Him and ratifies their choice by writing down their names in the book of life, can any more be saved than those that He foresees? Of course not! Were that possible, then God would fail to be God. Something would have escaped His knowledge. Thus, there is no difference in the number of elect and nonelect, the saved and unsaved, in either Arminianism or Calvinism. The number is set from all eternity. No one can change it. The only difference is in who does the choosing. Either God saves men by election unto Jesus Christ, or men save themselves by willing themselves unto Jesus Christ. The Bible asserts that God is the author of salvation: “Salvation is of Jehovah” (Jonah 2:9). In John 1:12-13 we read: “But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe in His Calvinism, Hyper-Calvinism & Arminianism name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” Additional Scriptures: God has an elect people. Deuteronomy 10:14-15: Indeed heaven and the highest heavens belong to the LORD your God, also the earth with all that is in it. The LORD delighted only in your fathers, to love them; and He chose their descendants after them, you above all peoples, as it is this day. Psalm 33:12: Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people He has chosen as His own inheritance. Psalm 65:4: Blessed is the man You choose, and cause to approach You, that he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, of Your holy temple. Matthew 11:27: All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Matthew 22:14: For many are called, but few are chosen. Luke 18:7: And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? Romans 8:28-30: And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn Divine Election or Human among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Romans 8:33: Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Titus 1:1: Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness. 1 Peter 1:12: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. It is God who does the choosing of individuals unto salvation by Grace. John 15:16: You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. Acts 13:48: Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 18:27: And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace. Romans 9:10-24: And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Ephesians 1:5: Having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will. Ephesians 2:10: For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Philippians 1:29: For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14: But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Robert Pate]

pt3;
Divine Election or Human Decision? 51 In Romans 9:10-13, Paul teaches that even before Jacob and Esau were born, or had done anything good or bad, God had chosen the former and rejected the latter. For what reason? “In order that God’s purpose in election might stand” (v. 11). The natural question then is: “Is God unjust?” (v.14); “God forbid,” says Paul: (v.14). “For He [God] says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion; so it does not depend on man’s will or effort, but on God’s mercy” (vv. 15-16). How much more obvious could the apostle make it? God’s election is unconditional. In Revelation 17:8 we read of those “whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world” (see also 13:8). Several things should be noticed in this passage. First, some names have already been written in the book of life before the foundation of the world and some have not. Will any be added? None! Will any be lost? None! The elect and the non-elect have been predetermined from all eternity. There is an absolute fixity to the number. It should be carefully noted that this is true in both Calvinism and Arminianism. Now, as in the Arminian a, if God foresees all who will choose Him and ratifies their choice by writing down their names in the book of life, can any more be saved than those that He foresees? Of course not! Were that possible, then God would fail to be God. Something would have escaped His knowledge. Thus, there is no difference in the number of elect and nonelect, the saved and unsaved, in either Arminianism or Calvinism. The number is set from all eternity. No one can change it. The only difference is in who does the choosing. Either God saves men by election unto Jesus Christ, or men save themselves by willing themselves unto Jesus Christ. The Bible asserts that God is the author of salvation: “Salvation is of Jehovah” (Jonah 2:9). In John 1:12-13 we read: “But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe in His Calvinism, Hyper-Calvinism & Arminianism name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” Additional Scriptures: God has an elect people. Deuteronomy 10:14-15: Indeed heaven and the highest heavens belong to the LORD your God, also the earth with all that is in it. The LORD delighted only in your fathers, to love them; and He chose their descendants after them, you above all peoples, as it is this day. Psalm 33:12: Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people He has chosen as His own inheritance. Psalm 65:4: Blessed is the man You choose, and cause to approach You, that he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, of Your holy temple. Matthew 11:27: All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Matthew 22:14: For many are called, but few are chosen. Luke 18:7: And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? Romans 8:28-30: And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn Divine Election or Human among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Romans 8:33: Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Titus 1:1: Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness. 1 Peter 1:12: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. It is God who does the choosing of individuals unto salvation by Grace. John 15:16: You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. Acts 13:48: Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 18:27: And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace. Romans 9:10-24: And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Ephesians 1:5: Having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will. Ephesians 2:10: For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Philippians 1:29: For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14: But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

All of the scripture that you listed is also for me that is not a Calvinist.

The fact remains. There is no scripture in the Bible that says God predestinates people to heaven or to hell.

From the very beginning salvation was by grace through faith. This is why the word "predestination" does not appear in the Old Testament. In the Old Testament they were saved and justified by God's promise of a savior. Nothing has changed, we are still saved and justified by faith in the promised savior Jesus Christ.

The words "Faith" and "Believe" appear in the Bible hundreds of times, while the word "Predestination only appears in the Bible four times. Nowhere does it say that anyone is predestinated to heaven or to hell. If predestination was a true doctrine of salvation the Bible would be full of it. There is nothing.

 

[Iconoclast]

All of the scripture that you listed is also for me that is not a Calvinist.

The fact remains. There is no scripture in the Bible that says God predestinates people to heaven or to hell.

From the very beginning salvation was by grace through faith. This is why the word "predestination" does not appear in the Old Testament. In the Old Testament they were saved and justified by God's promise of a savior. Nothing has changed, we are still saved and justified by faith in the promised savior Jesus Christ.

The words "Faith" and "Believe" appear in the Bible hundreds of times, while the word "Predestination only appears in the Bible four times. Nowhere does it say that anyone is predestinated to heaven or to hell. If predestination was a true doctrine of salvation the Bible would be full of it. There is nothing.

God only has to say something once.
Predestination has to do with elect persons being conformed to the image of the Son.
Election was mentioned
What I posted is very clear.
Did you answer my earlier post?
I answered you and asked you to post a response. Did you do it?

 

[Iconoclast]

All of the scripture that you listed is also for me that is not a Calvinist.

So you are starting to agree now. Here is the other post, looks like you did not answer?

Calvinism teaches what the bible says unlike your objection.

You say;
[If you have been predestinated by God before the foundation of the world to be saved,

Yes, we have ELECTED by God before the world was, to believe in Jesus, His Holy Person, His sinless, law-keeping life.

[then you don't need Jesus Christ and his Gospel, nor do you need to be judged]

Of course, we need Jesus, what are you talking about?
He seeks and saves us giving His perfect law-keeping to us, taking our sin upon Himself.
We are predestined to be conformed to His Image Rom8:29-30

So we see no by pass, no sham. We see these first charges are shallow and void of credibility

 

[Iconoclast]

So you are starting to agree now. Here is the other post, looks like you did not answer?

Calvinism teaches what the bible says unlike your objection.

You say;
[If you have been predestinated by God before the foundation of the world to be saved,

Yes, we have ELECTED by God before the world was, to believe in Jesus, His Holy Person, His sinless, law-keeping life.

[then you don't need Jesus Christ and his Gospel, nor do you need to be judged]

Of course, we need Jesus, what are you talking about?
He seeks and saves us giving His perfect law-keeping to us, taking our sin upon Himself.
We are predestined to be conformed to His Image Rom8:29-30

So we see no by pass, no sham. We see these first charges are shallow and void of credibility

so....you see it now? If you agree with all the verses it should be a slam dunk.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

For the predestined to Hell before the foundation of the world it is a hideous, unjust doctrine. Every place Jesus tells men to choose proves it is not a biblical doctrine. It reminds me of Hinduism where the rich savor the comforts of their wealth relieving themselves of any twinge of guilt when they see skinny beggars on the street that it was fated to be so.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Pages and pages of how great that “predestined for heaven” doctrine sounds is destroyed by simply pointing out how the majority of mankind ending up in hell see it (for what it is.) The only difficulty is how this affects those who first realize this problem. From observation based on what the adherents say, either a hardness of the heart occurs or they commit intellectual suicide and turn off the brain so that they needn’t consider this problem. What never occurs to them is that they might be among the damned to hell before the foundation of the world and nothing can change that. That state is ok for others but not themselves.

 

[GodsGrace]

so....you see it now? If you agree with all the verses it should be a slam dunk.

I ran through what you posted.
I won't be contributing to this thread although I would like to and here's why...

1. It's truly impossible to have a reasonable and intelligent conversation with you and I don't want anymore personal insults.

2. I see now where some of the problem lies...
You read a lot from persons that explain away the illogical beliefs of calvinism. I read a lot too,why do we arrive at different conclusions?
Indoctrination.

3. Have you read the Institutes?
Do you go through one of the Confessions on your own, with no commentary to arrive at your own conclusion?

4. Too much writing about what non-calvinists believe... so this causes you not to Listen to what I'm posting because you just throw all of us "arminians" into the batch.

5. I keep hearing I don't know calvinism. There's a disconnect between calvinism and how you THINK of it. There's a layer of sweet sugar thrown upon its teachings or you could not but be horrified by this God of calvinism if you would open your mind to it.

6. I make a statement, asked to prove it because I'm dishonest, i post the actual persons saying it on YOUTUBE! and it's still not enough! So how would You feel?

I guess that's enough reasons.
I'm tired of being told I don't understand calvinism because that God is truly difficult to accept by calvinists, so He's softened up.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I ran through what you posted.
I won't be contributing to this thread although I would like to and here's why...

1. It's truly impossible to have a reasonable and intelligent conversation with you and I don't want anymore personal insults.

2. I see now where some of the problem lies...
You read a lot from persons that explain away the illogical beliefs of calvinism. I read a lot too,why do we arrive at different conclusions?
Indoctrination.

3. Have you read the Institutes?
Do you go through one of the Confessions on your own, with no commentary to arrive at your own conclusion?

4. Too much writing about what non-calvinists believe... so this causes you not to Listen to what I'm posting because you just throw all of us "arminians" into the batch.

5. I keep hearing I don't know calvinism. There's a disconnect between calvinism and how you THINK of it. There's a layer of sweet sugar thrown upon its teachings or you could not but be horrified by this God of calvinism if you would open your mind to it.

6. I make a statement, asked to prove it because I'm dishonest, i post the actual persons saying it on YOUTUBE! and it's still not enough! So how would You feel?

I guess that's enough reasons.
I'm tired of being told I don't understand calvinism because that God is truly difficult to accept by calvinists, so He's softened up.

The interesting thing is, those who were firm supporters of man proceeding from non-man slowly over time have been found to have examined real science and rejected that theory. Even though some of these were university professors of evolutionary biology who taught evolution for decades, as soon as they no longer accepted its premises as true, they were instantly classified as “not understanding evolution.” Really similar to the argument you identify as false or at least weak. It’s easier than refuting the problems. Just use the ad hominem. It’s very common.

 

[Iconoclast]

For the predestined to Hell before the foundation of the world it is a hideous, unjust doctrine. Every place Jesus tells men to choose proves it is not a biblical doctrine. It reminds me of Hinduism where the rich savor the comforts of their wealth relieving themselves of any twinge of guilt when they see skinny beggars on the street that it was fated to be so.

Hello Dorothy MAE,

I come on any message board looking to help by offering some verses or removing an obstacle that is hindering someone.
If we do not agree some make the charge of being insulted. Most of the time...no insult is intended at all. To be told....you are wrong, or you do not understand, is not pleasant but may indeed be true.

For the predestined to Hell before the foundation of the world it is a hideous, unjust doctrine.

I do not see the words.....predestined to hell in scripture anywhere.
The word predestined in scripture is a positive word. believers are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus. Do you think that is positive? I do.

What I think you and others mean by saying this is you do not like that God has ordained that all sin is going to be punished.
DM.....can I ask you....Is it " just" that a Holy God punishes sin?
Do you think it would be more just to just ignore sin?

Every place Jesus tells men to choose proves it is not a biblical doctrine.

We are free moral agents. We make choices every day. Your will is bound by your nature however.
A Holy God cannot sin, not possible. In Heaven, no one will be able to sin.
Predestination has nothing to do with this, at all.

It reminds me of Hinduism where the rich savor the comforts of their wealth relieving themselves of any twinge of guilt when they see skinny beggars on the street that it was fated to be so.

God has ordained whatsoever comes to pass...nothing is "fated"
God is the author and finisher of faith.
I trust God. Calvinists trust God. I think non cals trust God in a limited way.TRust has to be 100%

 

[GodsGrace]

The interesting thing is, those who were firm supporters of man proceeding from non-man slowly over time have been found to have examined real science and rejected that theory. Even though some of these were university professors of evolutionary biology who taught evolution for decades, as soon as they no longer accepted its premises as true, they were instantly classified as “not understanding evolution.” Really similar to the argument you identify as false or at least weak. It’s easier than refuting the problems. Just use the ad hominem. It’s very common.

Interesting. I never thought of this, but it's true.
I've already left one denomination, so I'm open to new ideas and studying the old ones well.
I do believe we should use the NT as our reference, but persons can teach us new things.
We need to LISTEN though, and not just think everybody is saying exactly the same thing.
And IF they are,,,maybe we should listen twice as hard?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hello Dorothy MAE,

I come on any message board looking to help by offering some verses or removing an obstacle that is hindering someone.
If we do not agree some make the charge of being insulted. Most of the time...no insult is intended at all. To be told....you are wrong, or you do not understand, is not pleasant but may indeed be true.

You are not allowed to tell anyone here that they are wrong. It’s a rule here. So that’s out. True or not play no role.

I do not see the words.....predestined to hell in scripture anywhere.

Do you believe people are predestined for Heaven?

The word predestined in scripture is a positive word. believers are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus. Do you think that is positive? I do.

Positive or negative are terms God doesn’t use. He loves truth, not the “ positive.” If we are to have the mind of Christ we need to drop that modern view. It’s doesn’t reflect Christ’s thinking which was VERY negative at times.

What I think you and others mean by saying this is you do not like that God has ordained that all sin is going to be punished.

Nope. This is not even close.

DM.....can I ask you....Is it " just" that a Holy God punishes sin?
Do you think it would be more just to just ignore sin?

We are free moral agents. We make choices every day. Your will is bound by your nature however.

Nature is bound by your will.

A Holy God cannot sin, not possible. In Heaven, no one will be able to sin.
Predestination has nothing to do with this, at all.



God has ordained whatsoever comes to pass...nothing is "fated"
God is the author and finisher of faith.
I trust God. Calvinists trust God. I think non cals trust God in a limited way.TRust has to be 100%

You do not understand those who don’t subscribe to your theology it seems. You say things of us we DO NOT think. Do you want to understand what we think or have you made your mind what we think?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Interesting. I never thought of this, but it's true.
I've already left one denomination, so I'm open to new ideas and studying the old ones well.
I do believe we should use the NT as our reference, but persons can teach us new things.
We need to LISTEN though, and not just think everybody is saying exactly the same thing.
And IF they are,,,maybe we should listen twice as hard?

I am VERY interested in what others think and how they think. You are or were engaged with a Calvinist here. I’ve done that quite a bit and a very interesting pattern emerges. They aren’t all alike but they’re not very many different types.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

wondering, I have no hope nor desire to change his/her mind. I only want to offer the solidly rational and biblical opposition to that theology for those considering it. I have found that, without exception, no one who embraces that theology understands God. To be fair not many do in any case, but those who like to comfort themselves with God being so cruel as to predestine eternal destinations haven’t the slightest chance. This is easy to prove, btw. Just ask them to explain why God does this. They cannot give an answer. Thus, they don’t understand Him.

 

[Iconoclast]

3. Have you read the Institutes?
Do you go through one of the Confessions on your own, with no commentary to arrive at your own conclusion?

4. Too much writing about what non-calvinists believe... so this causes you not to Listen to what I'm posting because you just throw all of us "arminians" into the batch.

5. I keep hearing I don't know calvinism. There's a disconnect between calvinism and how you THINK of it. There's a layer of sweet sugar thrown upon its teachings or you could not but be horrified by this God of calvinism if you would open your mind to it.

6. I make a statement, asked to prove it because I'm dishonest, i post the actual persons saying it on YOUTUBE! and it's still not enough! So how would You feel?

I guess that's enough reasons.
I'm tired of being told I don't understand calvinism because that God is truly difficult to accept by calvinists, so He's softened up.

[I ran through what you posted.
I won't be contributing to this thread although I would like to and here's why...]

Okay...lets see what you offer here.

[1. It's truly impossible to have a reasonable and intelligent conversation with you and I don't want anymore personal insults.]
Wondering......do you think that goes both ways? If you offer some sarcasm, or disparaging comments...should you be shocked when you receive some "return fire"?
If you are going to poke a stick in the eyes of Calvinists with comments that question their salvation, or their knowledge, I do not think you should be upset if it comes back to you.
On the other thread about cultural interaction we went back and forth pleasantly.
Why was that? If you look...there was not offensive attack either way.
I can do that, and in fact prefer that as being more biblical 2 tim2:24-26.
As a truck driver ,I can also do the other way, and can get under your skin, if that is what you want. Sadly, I can do that very well. Let's put it this way. A sincere, non attacking question will get a sincere biblical response. You might not "like" the answer, but it will be honest.


2. I see now where some of the problem lies...
You read a lot from persons that explain away the illogical beliefs of calvinism. I read a lot too,why do we arrive at different conclusions?
Indoctrination.]

Since I was first saved, I always read the bible first, make my own outlines first.
I cross reference as many other verses as I can to let the bible interpret itself.
Before I knew or heard anything about doctrine, church history, Calvin, Arminius, puritans, reformers, I believed the core of what is known as Calvinism.
Reading eph 1. told me God is God, He is in complete control, and we are not God, and we are not in complete control.
Eph 4 says gave has given Pastors and teachers...they are men. A teacher has students.
I have taught in 4 churches. If a more gifted person comes, I shut up, sit down, and listen to him.
When I would prepare a lesson, I made my own notes.
Then my first line of follow up is to see if Spurgeon preached on the main text I am using.
Almost every time he saw something that never crossed my mind. I add that to my previous understanding. Sometimes I have to change or modify what I believe.
That is healthy...it is growing in grace, not indoctrination.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

[I ran through what you posted.
I won't be contributing to this thread although I would like to and here's why...]

Okay...lets see what you offer here.

[1. It's truly impossible to have a reasonable and intelligent conversation with you and I don't want anymore personal insults.]
Wondering......do you think that goes both ways? If you offer some sarcasm, or disparaging comments...should you be shocked when you receive some "return fire"?
If you are going to poke a stick in the eyes of Calvinists with comments that question their salvation, or their knowledge, I do not think you should be upset if it comes back to you.
On the other thread about cultural interaction we went back and forth pleasantly.
Why was that? If you look...there was not offensive attack either way.
I can do that, and in fact prefer that as being more biblical 2 tim2:24-26.
As a truck driver ,I can also do the other way, and can get under your skin, if that is what you want. Sadly, I can do that very well. Let's put it this way. A sincere, non attacking question will get a sincere biblical response. You might not "like" the answer, but it will be honest.


2. I see now where some of the problem lies...
You read a lot from persons that explain away the illogical beliefs of calvinism. I read a lot too,why do we arrive at different conclusions?
Indoctrination.]

Since I was first saved, I always read the bible first, make my own outlines first.
I cross reference as many other verses as I can to let the bible interpret itself.
Before I knew or heard anything about doctrine, church history, Calvin, Arminius, puritans, reformers, I believed the core of what is known as Calvinism.
Reading eph 1. told me God is God, He is in complete control, and we are not God, and we are not in complete control.
Eph 4 says gave has given Pastors and teachers...they are men. A teacher has students.
I have taught in 4 churches. If a more gifted person comes, I shut up, sit down, and listen to him.
When I would prepare a lesson, I made my own notes.
Then my first line of follow up is to see if Spurgeon preached on the main text I am using.
Almost every time he saw something that never crossed my mind. I add that to my previous understanding. Sometimes I have to change or modify what I believe.
That is healthy...it is growing in grace, not indoctrination.

There is nothing here that supports your position. It’s all personal experience which while meaningful to you, means nothing to us.

Secondly, those who are “predestined to be confirmed to the image of Christ” do not justify their returning insult for insult, something Christ NEVER did. That you think this is OK is telling.