Questions about Hell

[Webers_Home]

.

2 Timothy 3:16:All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Below is a quote from scripture.

†. Gen 3:4 . .You will not surely die.

Was that true, or was it bull?

Here's another:

†. Gen 3:3 . . God has said you shall not eat from it or touch it

Was that true; or was it bull?

Another:

†. Gen 27:19 . . I am Esau your firstborn; I have done just as you told me; please arise, sit and eat of my game

Was that true; or was it bull?

Another:

†. Ex 32:4 . . These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

Was that true, or was it bull?

Another:

†. Job 4:7 . . Remember, I pray thee, who ever perished, being innocent?

Is that true, or is it bull? (apparently Eliphaz forgot all about the little children who died in the Flood and those incinerated in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, and/or those who were swallowed up by a fissure when Korah challenged Moses, and then of course he didn't know about the little babies and toddlers who were vaporized in Nagasaki and Heroshima)

Yes, all scripture is profitable for doctrine; but what then: is doctrine? Well, the koiné Greek word for "doctrine" in 2Tim 3:16 is didaskalia (did-as-kal-ee'-ah) which just simply means instruction (the function or the information). In that respect, even the Bible's untruths are informative; however, I would not recommend using those untruths to build a belief system that cannot be supported by truths. Caveat Lector.

Cliff
/

 

[JJsaint]

.
Stop and think about the Lord's parables for just a moment. Can you think of even one of them that couldn't possibly be an event taken from real life? No; they all, every one of them are 100% realistic; plus they all share one very, very common denominator: none of them reveal names.

Do you really think that Luke 16:19-31 would be the one and only exception to the rule? No; that would just be too inconsistent. Even if Luke 16:19-31 were a parable, it would seriously break ranks with all the others were it unrealistic; and especially by revealing names: and that is why I am positive it cannot possibly be a parable for if it were, it would leave the reader with a false impression about the real-life people named in it. No, I am confident that if Abraham and Lazarus weren't in the netherworld at the time of the story, then the Lord wouldn't have said they were because he is too honest a man to do otherwise. Have some faith in the Lord that he knows what he's talking about.

Cliff
/

1)How would Jesus be able to recall a conversation between Abraham and the man
2)How would Jesus know what was said
3)How come the man did not ask for a bucket of water
4)How can the man be speaking to Abraham if Abraham is in Heaven while the man is been tormented in Hell
5)Do you know anything about symbolism/figure of speech
6)v 24 only says ''flame'' not flames
7)If parables are real events how come most parables are symbolic
8)If parables are real events then it is a very,very odd thing for Jesus to state..


Matthew 13:10-11:10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.


Matthew 13:35:That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.


If parables were real events....






Matthew 13:31-33:31Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
33Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.


1)Was the Kingdom of Heaven sowed in a field?
2)Where can we find this field?
3)Did a woman really hide the Kingdom of Heaven?

 

[JJsaint]

.
Below is a quote from scripture.

†. Gen 3:4 . .You will not surely die.

Was that true, or was it bull?

Here's another:

†. Gen 3:3 . . God has said you shall not eat from it or touch it

Was that true; or was it bull?

Another:

†. Gen 27:19 . . I am Esau your firstborn; I have done just as you told me; please arise, sit and eat of my game

Was that true; or was it bull?

Another:

†. Ex 32:4 . . These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

Was that true, or was it bull?

Another:

†. Job 4:7 . . Remember, I pray thee, who ever perished, being innocent?

Is that true, or is it bull? (apparently Eliphaz forgot all about the little children who died in the Flood and those incinerated in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, and/or those who were swallowed up by a fissure when Korah challenged Moses, and then of course he didn't know about the little babies and toddlers who were vaporized in Nagasaki and Heroshima)

Yes, all scripture is profitable for doctrine; but what then: is doctrine? Well, the koiné Greek word for "doctrine" in 2Tim 3:16 is didaskalia (did-as-kal-ee'-ah) which just simply means instruction (the function or the information). In that respect, even the Bible's untruths are informative; however, I would not recommend using those untruths to build a belief system that cannot be supported by truths. Caveat Lector.

Cliff
/

All you have done is take Scripture out of context and twist it around.

 

[westtexas]

2. The use of the word eternal, means "age-abiding" or "age-enduring". Basically, for the length of an age, period of time. There is nothing in the Greek to suggest that anybody burns into the next age..

I disagree. Let's look at Matt. 25:46 first. The same word "aionios-eternal" is used for both our reward and the punishment of the unrighteous. I'd like to hear your explanation how the same word is used in the same sentence-yet has two separate meanings. Unless you believe our reward is only "for a period of time".

Westtexas

 

[westtexas]

I was brought up in a very fundie church and was surprised in bible college to learn that these many words on hell actually meant something different and that a hell of torture was hardly a concept until 400AD.

Not sure where you went to bible college at but this statement is totally incorrect. Just a few of the better known ECF's that wrote on this doctrine in the 2nd century were Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome, Tatian, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and Tertullian. I'd be glad to show quotes should you so desire but we'll come up with many writings well before 400AD

Ignatius of Antioch was a student of the Apostle John--
"A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire, and so will anyone who listens to him"(Ignatius of Antioch/Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2/110AD)

Westtexas

 

[Webers_Home]

*****************

***************************

 

[Webers_Home]

.

How would Jesus be able to recall a conversation between Abraham and the man, How would Jesus know what was said

The Lord doesn't need eidetic memory. He's micro-managed.

†. John 8:29 . . He who sent me is with me. The Father has not left me alone

At Mtt 10:19, the Lord instructed his disciples not to be concerned about what to say as it would be given to them when they needed it. Well, don't you think God's Spirit did exactly the same thing for Christ?

†. John 3:34 . . He speaks God's words, for God's Spirit is upon him without measure or limit.

The Lord's opponents had no idea what they were up against. They thought they were arguing with him, but in reality were arguing with his Father all along and didn't know it. Poor slobs: there was no way they could ever beat the Lord intellectually without taking his coach down first.

How come the man did not ask for a bucket of water

That just goes to show how desperate the people there really are when even a wet fingertip offers some relief.

How can the man be speaking to Abraham if Abraham is in Heaven while the man is been tormented in Hell

According to John 3:13 Abraham wasn't in heaven at the time of the story. He was in haides (a.k.a. sheol) same as the rich man, except that Abraham was in a comfier section than his.

v 24 only says ''flame'' not flames

That's an interesting observation. The koiné Greek word is phlox (flox) which means: a blaze; which Webster's defines as: an intensely burning fire. Whether it's singular or plural really makes little difference as I'd suspect the effects are the same.

If parables are real events how come most parables are symbolic

The koiné Greek word for "parable" is parabole (par-ab-ol-ay') which means: a similitude; which Webster's defines as: a comparison; viz: a simile. In other words; a New Testament parable is a real-life event used to cryptically illustrate a spiritual principle; which is very similar to an allegory. There's a really good example of an allegory at Gal 4:22-31.

Was the Kingdom of Heaven sowed in a field?

In a manner of speaking; yes, since seed is used by the Lord more than once to represent certain aspects of the kingdom.

Where can we find this field?

According to Mtt 13:38, the field is the world.

Did a woman really hide the Kingdom of Heaven?

Biblical leaven isn't the same as yeast. It's the remnants of an old batch of dough that's gone sour. So then, leavened bread is, technically, an amalgam of old and new. Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is not that; but rather: like that.

Cliff
/

 

[Webers_Home]

.

All you have done is take Scripture out of context and twist it around.

Is it impossible that it is you who has taken scripture out of context and twisted it around instead of me? I would advise you to be a little more circumspect with your choice of words lest the hapless day arrives when you are forced to eat them.

†. Mtt 12:36-37 . . I tell you that people will have to give account on the day of judgment for every thoughtless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

BTW: that amazing interpretation of Luke 16:19-31 you composed in post #29 sure looks twisted to me; but then hey, what do I know; right?

If there is a great gulf fixed - How could Abraham be having a conversation with the man if it is not symbolic?

The koiné Greek word for "gulf" is chasma (khas'-mah) which means a chasm or a vacancy, viz: an impassible interval.

A chasm like America's mile-wide Grand Canyon isn't impassible; not when people can simply hike down one side, walk over, and hike up the other side. A truly impassible void is one that can't be negotiated; and since it's doubtful hell's inmates have access to flying machines, then the "great gulf" need not even be all that wide to suffice for a barrier.

Something else about hell that's often overlooked by its opponents is that hell is supernatural. In other words, it's not subject to the known laws of physics. In nature, air is necessary in order to generate sound waves that people can then detect with the auditory mechanisms in their ears. Well, people leave their natural ears behind when they cross over to the other side to an area where natural laws of physics have no jurisdiction. Just exactly how people are able to hear each other over there I have no clue but apparently distance isn't a factor.

Especially interesting to me is that the rich man was able to recognize Abraham and Lazarus though they were far off. I seriously doubt the natural unaided human eye could even recognize your own mother across the Grand Canyon. But people leave their natural eyes behind when they cross over to the other side; viz: the eyes they have now are supernatural.

Cliff
/

 

[thethinkingrebel]

.
Stop and think about the Lord's parables for just a moment. Can you think of even one of them that couldn't possibly be an event taken from real life? No; they all, every one of them are 100% realistic; plus they all share one very, very common denominator: none of them reveal names.

Do you really think that Luke 16:19-31 would be the one and only exception to the rule? No; that would just be too inconsistent. Even if Luke 16:19-31 were a parable, it would seriously break ranks with all the others were it unrealistic; and especially by revealing names: and that is why I am positive it cannot possibly be a parable for if it were, it would leave the reader with a false impression about the real-life people named in it. No, I am confident that if Abraham and Lazarus weren't in the netherworld at the time of the story, then the Lord wouldn't have said they were because he is too honest a man to do otherwise. Have some faith in the Lord that he knows what he's talking about.

Cliff
/

You are just repeating what you heard someone else say. But it cannot be true, and those who heard it knew it wasnt. If it were true it would go in the face of the most firm beliefs of God's people.

THE RESURRECTION.

1. It says Lazarus was carried off by Angels..why? Hes dead. Wheres he going to go? Hes asleep awaiting the resurrection.

2. It says Lazarus is in Abrahams bosom. What? Was Lazarus a righteous man? Had he been judged and found to be so? This flies in the face of God's justice.

3.It says that the "Rich man" was in Hades being tormented. although it doesnt say for eternity. Now, as far as I am aware, this is the only place in the entire bible that says Hades is a place of torment. Isnt it odd however, that there is a man in the gospels named Lazarus? Who is resurrected?

If Jesus himself preaches that the dead do not sleep, when he says elsewhere that they so..its a parable. If Jesus says something that defies all that which is said in the prophets about the day of judgement..then he is speaking in parables. If we are all awake and walking around then WHERE is the hope of the resurrection? There is no consciousness after death. The DEAD know nothing!!

All this nonsense about theres A name so it must be real. Why dont people know their bibles?

The first will be last! The last will be first!

 

[Webers_Home]

.

It says Lazarus was carried off by Angels..why? Hes dead. Wheres he going to go? Hes asleep awaiting the resurrection.

Human beings consist of three elements: body, soul, and spirit; and those three elements are divisible. In other words: it is very possible for your corpse to repose in a grave while your spirit and soul disconnect and go elsewhere.

The man under the sun, as per the book of Ecclesiastes, perceives himself to exist only as an organism and that's perfectly normal because the man under the sun only knows what he can observe for himself in the physical world; viz: empirical evidence. The man under the sun cannot accept that human beings exist beyond the demise of their bodies simply because he cannot see it for himself.

It says Lazarus is in Abrahams bosom. What? Was Lazarus a righteous man? Had he been judged and found to be so? This flies in the face of God's justice.

Doesn't the Bible's God know the future? Apparently Lazarus is going to come out just fine in judgment, so it is okay for God to locate him in a place consistent with the outcome; and that's why the rich guy got the dirty end of the stick. In other words: should you find yourself in a place of torment when you cross over to the other side; then you can rest assured that the verdict of your upcoming day in court is a forgone conclusion.

It says that the "Rich man" was in Hades being tormented. although it doesnt say for eternity.

Hades is only a temporary confinement where people are kept in custody while awaiting their day in court. In the future, hades itself will be relocated to the reservoir of liquefied flame depicted at Rev 20:11-15.

Now, as far as I am aware, this is the only place in the entire bible that says Hades is a place of torment.

Hades isn't specifically a place of torment; it's also a place of comfort. In other words: classical hades is the unseen world of all the dead: both the good and the bad.

Isnt it odd however, that there is a man in the gospels named Lazarus?

It would be even more odd if the Lord's friend had been the only Jew in Israel with that name. Even the Lord's name wasn't all that uncommon. The Hebrew equivalent of his name is Joshua.

If we are all awake and walking around then WHERE is the hope of the resurrection?

Human beings are not fully human sans a human body. It is abnormal for human beings to exist solely as spirits. That condition has to be rectified, and it will.

The DEAD know nothing

That statement is true in at least one respect— a corpse is quite non-sentient sans the spirit of the man who once occupied it.

Cliff
/

 

[thethinkingrebel]

.
Human beings consist of three elements: body, soul, and spirit; and those three elements are divisible. In other words: it is very possible for your corpse to repose in a grave while your spirit and soul disconnect and go elsewhere.

That stuff is from the Greek philosophers, it has no bearing on reality. The soul means life/being, the spirit is breath of God, the body is...the body. No consciousness travels elsewhere. When you die, you really do die. Otherwise what reason would Paul have to view this as the sole fulfillment of the Gospel? This is his hope! To be restored to LIFE. Not to be given a body after wandering the Earth for 2000 years, or after sitting in the nice suburb of hades. Utter nonsense.

The man under the sun, as per the book of Ecclesiastes, perceives himself to exist only as an organism and that's perfectly normal because the man under the sun only knows what he can observe for himself in the physical world; viz: empirical evidence. The man under the sun cannot accept that human beings exist beyond the demise of their bodies simply because he cannot see it for himself.

These are modern interpretations that have to exist because you cant accept that people are truly dead [asleep/unconscious] until the day of the resurrection.

Doesn't the Bible's God know the future? Apparently Lazarus is going to come out just fine in judgment, so it is okay for God to locate him in a place consistent with the outcome; and that's why the rich guy got the dirty end of the stick. In other words: should you find yourself in a place of torment when you cross over to the other side; then you can rest assured that the verdict of your upcoming day in court is a forgone conclusion.

Yes but if God starts torturing people pre-judgment, as you evidently believe, why have the judgment in the first place? Also why is it a foregone conclusion? If the judgment hasnt yet taken place, why is this person being tormented. Its a fundamental of all legal systems to be treated innocent until proven guilty. Considering that God himself established this rule in Deuteronomy 17:6, as well as the man giving account for what he has done..the case hasnt even begun...so why would he be tormented by God? Who is patient and kind?

Hades is only a temporary confinement where people are kept in custody while awaiting their day in court. In the future, hades itself will be relocated to the reservoir of liquefied flame depicted at Rev 20:11-15.

Yes but you are missing the whole point of this, death the place of the dead were thrown into the lake of fire. You assume that to mean something beyond it, you add fantasy and fairytale from Greek myths to it. The truth is it is the place of THE DEAD. People who are DEAD. Inert and inactive.

Hades isn't specifically a place of torment; it's also a place of comfort. In other words: classical hades is the unseen world of all the dead: both the good and the bad.

Hades is simply a figurative term for death. Some people die at peace, as christians, and most afraid, not believing in Jesus. Noone is tormented in Hades, they are all dead, asleep. Add theology to it if you wish. But it wont change the fact. Yes the hebrews believed in Sheol, and the greeks hades. But the promise of the gospel is not and afterlife, the promise is to A. Join a new kingdom for 1000 years ministering, and then a new jerusalem that reigns forever...physically, where God COMES DOWN FROM HEAVEN...physically..to dwell with us. Theres no place for a spiritual Hades where people are tormented until being judged, and then tortured even more. The wicked will be resurrected to LIFE and then judged, and then executed in the lake of fire..the second death. Thats it..simple.

It would be even more odd if the Lord's friend had been the only Jew in Israel with that name. Even the Lord's name wasn't all that uncommon. The Hebrew equivalent of his name is Joshua.

i wasnt trying to say anything other than to simply point out that its possible he used that name because he and the disciples knew him.

Human beings are not fully human sans a human body. It is abnormal for human beings to exist solely as spirits. That condition has to be rectified, and it will.

its abnormal because it doesnt happen. The human being became a living soul [animated, alive] due to God's breath/spirit/nephesh being poured upon it..a la Genesis.

That statement is true in at least one respect— a corpse is quite non-sentient sans the spirit of the man who once occupied it.

Yes and Jesus said of the girl he resurrected..She is not dead, only sleeping! Not "she is not dead, shes alive and well in hades", No she is sleeping!

Luke 8:52
Matthew 9:24
Mark 5:39

 

[JJsaint]

.
The Lord doesn't need eidetic memory. He's micro-managed.

†. John 8:29 . . He who sent me is with me. The Father has not left me alone

At Mtt 10:19, the Lord instructed his disciples not to be concerned about what to say as it would be given to them when they needed it. Well, don't you think God's Spirit did exactly the same thing for Christ?

†. John 3:34 . . He speaks God's words, for God's Spirit is upon him without measure or limit.

The Lord's opponents had no idea what they were up against. They thought they were arguing with him, but in reality were arguing with his Father all along and didn't know it. Poor slobs: there was no way they could ever beat the Lord intellectually without taking his coach down first.


That just goes to show how desperate the people there really are when even a wet fingertip offers some relief.


According to John 3:13 Abraham wasn't in heaven at the time of the story. He was in haides (a.k.a. sheol) same as the rich man, except that Abraham was in a comfier section than his.


That's an interesting observation. The koiné Greek word is phlox (flox) which means: a blaze; which Webster's defines as: an intensely burning fire. Whether it's singular or plural really makes little difference as I'd suspect the effects are the same.


The koiné Greek word for "parable" is parabole (par-ab-ol-ay') which means: a similitude; which Webster's defines as: a comparison; viz: a simile. In other words; a New Testament parable is a real-life event used to cryptically illustrate a spiritual principle; which is very similar to an allegory. There's a really good example of an allegory at Gal 4:22-31.


In a manner of speaking; yes, since seed is used by the Lord more than once to represent certain aspects of the kingdom.


According to Mtt 13:38, the field is the world.


Biblical leaven isn't the same as yeast. It's the remnants of an old batch of dough that's gone sour. So then, leavened bread is, technically, an amalgam of old and new. Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is not that; but rather: like that.

Cliff
/

Biblical leaven isn't the same as yeast. It's the remnants of an old batch of dough that's gone sour. So then, leavened bread is, technically, an amalgam of old and new. Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is not that; but rather: like that.

So this is not a real event if something is not like that....

Luke 16:23-24:23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.


The man saw Abraham ''afar off'' and ''he lift up his eyes''
This is not hell or a burning hell.
Was Abraham the ruler of hell?
Why ask for Abraham to have mercy on him and not God?
It states flame - if flame in the plural was important it would have stated flames but it did not.


This is all symbolic,why in the world would Jesus present a literal event yet give off so many symbolic details?


''rich man'' ''clothed in purple and fine linen'' ''beggar named Lazarus'' ''gate'' ''sores'' ''crumbs'' ''dogs'' ''Abraham's bosom''


It does not state Abraham was in another part of hell or ''comfier section''
That is your invention.


Luke 16:22:And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;


It does not state Lazarus went to hell or another part.


Luke 16:26:And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.


If a great gulf is fixed then obviously those people in hell cannot get to heaven,they are stuck there.

 

[JJsaint]

.
Is it impossible that it is you who has taken scripture out of context and twisted it around instead of me? I would advise you to be a little more circumspect with your choice of words lest the hapless day arrives when you are forced to eat them.

†. Mtt 12:36-37 . . I tell you that people will have to give account on the day of judgment for every thoughtless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

BTW: that amazing interpretation of Luke 16:19-31 you composed in post #29 sure looks twisted to me; but then hey, what do I know; right?


The koiné Greek word for "gulf" is chasma (khas'-mah) which means a chasm or a vacancy, viz: an impassible interval.

A chasm like America's mile-wide Grand Canyon isn't impassible; not when people can simply hike down one side, walk over, and hike up the other side. A truly impassible void is one that can't be negotiated; and since it's doubtful hell's inmates have access to flying machines, then the "great gulf" need not even be all that wide to suffice for a barrier.

Something else about hell that's often overlooked by its opponents is that hell is supernatural. In other words, it's not subject to the known laws of physics. In nature, air is necessary in order to generate sound waves that people can then detect with the auditory mechanisms in their ears. Well, people leave their natural ears behind when they cross over to the other side to an area where natural laws of physics have no jurisdiction. Just exactly how people are able to hear each other over there I have no clue but apparently distance isn't a factor.

Especially interesting to me is that the rich man was able to recognize Abraham and Lazarus though they were far off. I seriously doubt the natural unaided human eye could even recognize your own mother across the Grand Canyon. But people leave their natural eyes behind when they cross over to the other side; viz: the eyes they have now are supernatural.

Cliff
/

Twisted?

Your trying to prove their is a burning hell where people are tormented - how twisted is that,un biblical.

You seem to be focusing on the hell of Greek mythology.

Jeremiah 32:35:And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

If God did not want his children burnt to Molech,why would he burn his children in hell fire?

 

[Webers_Home]

.

If God did not want his children burnt to Molech, why would he burn his children in hell fire?

A response to your question is located in post #18.

Cliff
/

 

[JJsaint]

.
A response to your question is located in post #18.

Cliff
/

How does what was written in post 18 have to do with the contradiction you are making about God burning people in fire?

 

[Webers_Home]

.

How does what was written in post 18 have to do with the contradiction you are making about God burning people in fire?

It would be better if you were to read post #18 before asking me any questions about how it relates to your comment about children offered to Molech.

Cliff
/

 

[Webers_Home]

.

Especially interesting to me is that the rich man was able to recognize Abraham and Lazarus though they were far off.

The term "far off" doesn't necessarily denote distance measure; for example at Luke 18:10-14 a publican stood "far off" when he went up to the Temple to pray.

Note: in those days, when people went up to the Temple; they didn't actually go inside the main building. It was situated inside a walled compound; and the whole compound— it's structures and its grounds —was referred to as the Temple. Outside the main building, was an area called the great court (2Chrn 4:9). It was in the great court where worshippers gathered. Jews stood the closest and Gentiles the farthest. (cf. Eph 2:11-22)

Anyway; point being: "far off" doesn't indicate distance nearly as much as it represents one of the aspects of Jim Crow; viz: segregation; and that's why the publican of Luke 18:10-14 stood in the Gentile section to pray instead of the Jews' section. Jewish society ostracized publicans and wrote them off as traitors.

So then, what does all that suggest to me about the rich man of Luke 16:19-31? Well: it's not good. His location "far off" from Abraham indicates he is just as ostracized from Abraham as the publican was from Jewish society. In other words; relative to Abraham's God; the rich man's ties are severed.

Cliff
/

 

[JJsaint]

.
It would be better if you were to read post #18 before asking me any questions about how it relates to your comment about children offered to Molech.

Cliff
/

Post 18 - if everyone is not born from above does that mean those not born from above are destined to be burned in a fire and tormented forever?


Answer these 2

If hell is a literal fire - how are sinners burnt in the fire? the most we can say is they are burnt and then destroyed and not burnt on and on,how is the hell fire literal?

And another - since when does God demand torment and torture in fire for sin?

 

[Webers_Home]

.

Post 18 - if everyone is not born from above does that mean those not born from above are destined to be burned in a fire and tormented forever?

According to the Lord's testimony as an expert witness in all matters pertaining to the afterlife, no one can either see nor enter the kingdom of God without first undergoing a second birth; which means that Noah, Seth, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon, Samson, Deborah, and all the prophets, et al; have to undergo a second birth too: no exceptions. In point of fact; Nicodemus was supposed to already know about second births so the Lord's teachings weren't all that new even in his day. So then the answer to your question is YES.

If hell is a literal fire - how are sinners burnt in the fire? the most we can say is they are burnt and then destroyed and not burnt on and on, how is the hell fire literal?

You're correct in insisting that a normal human body cannot possibly survive in blazing flame. I know that from personal experience because I was a professional welder for 40 years and I've seen what contact with fire and molten metal does to the flesh of a normal human body. However, the flames of hades aren't normal: they're supernatural; and the people in those flames right now aren't normal either. They exist there in a supernatural condition.

In the future, people being warehoused for now in hades will be resurrected to stand trial at the Great White Throne of Rev 20:11-15 after which they will undergo a second death by immersion in a reservoir of liquefied flame. However; according to Isa 66:23-24 and Mrk 9:47, though their resurrection bodies will be killed in the reservoir, their corpses won't be annihilated but will perpetually exist to provide nourishment for a very unusual fire-proof species of worm.

So then, when you think of hell, you have to think outside the box; viz: think of it as something beyond the limits of empirical evidence; and you have to think of it as supernatural rather than natural; viz: hades is a supernatural place, it's fire is supernatural, and it's prisoners are all incarcerated there in a supernatural condition.

The afterlife is really scary because it's all so strange and unusual. Take for example the burning bush that Moses encountered in the desert. Though the bush was ablaze, it wasn't consumed. That isn't normal; no, that is utterly abnormal. I grew up in San Diego and I've seen for myself what fire does to chaparral. By all rights that bush should have roared out of control— snapping and popping and shooting up sparks until it turned into blackened charcoal; but it didn't because the fire that Moses witnessed was supernatural.

since when does God demand torment and torture in fire for sin?

If you're asking me for a precise historical date in the past when God announced His intentions to incarcerate sinners in flame; about the best I can do is sometime around the 8th century BC because that's when the experts say the book of Isaiah was written: hence the passage below.

†. Isa 66:23-24 . . All humanity will come to worship me from week to week and from month to month. And as they go out, they will see the dead bodies of those who have rebelled against me. For the worms that devour them will never die, and the fire that burns them will never go out. All who pass by will view them with utter horror.

Cliff
/

 

[JJsaint]

.
According to the Lord's testimony as an expert witness in all matters pertaining to the afterlife, no one can either see nor enter the kingdom of God without first undergoing a second birth; which means that Noah, Seth, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon, Samson, Deborah, and all the prophets, et al; have to undergo a second birth too: no exceptions. In point of fact; Nicodemus was supposed to already know about second births so the Lord's teachings weren't all that new even in his day. So then the answer to your question is YES.


You're correct in insisting that a normal human body cannot possibly survive in blazing flame. I know that from personal experience because I was a professional welder for 40 years and I've seen what contact with fire and molten metal does to the flesh of a normal human body. However, the flames of hades aren't normal: they're supernatural; and the people in those flames right now aren't normal either. They exist there in a supernatural condition.

In the future, people being warehoused for now in hades will be resurrected to stand trial at the Great White Throne of Rev 20:11-15 after which they will undergo a second death by immersion in a reservoir of liquefied flame. However; according to Isa 66:23-24 and Mrk 9:47, though their resurrection bodies will be killed in the reservoir, their corpses won't be annihilated but will perpetually exist to provide nourishment for a very unusual fire-proof species of worm.

So then, when you think of hell, you have to think outside the box; viz: think of it as something beyond the limits of empirical evidence; and you have to think of it as supernatural rather than natural; viz: hades is a supernatural place, it's fire is supernatural, and it's prisoners are all incarcerated there in a supernatural condition.

The afterlife is really scary because it's all so strange and unusual. Take for example the burning bush that Moses encountered in the desert. Though the bush was ablaze, it wasn't consumed. That isn't normal; no, that is utterly abnormal. I grew up in San Diego and I've seen for myself what fire does to chaparral. By all rights that bush should have roared out of control— snapping and popping and shooting up sparks until it turned into blackened charcoal; but it didn't because the fire that Moses witnessed was supernatural.


If you're asking me for a precise historical date in the past when God announced His intentions to incarcerate sinners in flame; about the best I can do is sometime around the 8th century BC because that's when the experts say the book of Isaiah was written: hence the passage below.

†. Isa 66:23-24 . . All humanity will come to worship me from week to week and from month to month. And as they go out, they will see the dead bodies of those who have rebelled against me. For the worms that devour them will never die, and the fire that burns them will never go out. All who pass by will view them with utter horror.

Cliff
/

Romans 6:23:For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Not Spiritual death.

Where in the Bible does God demand torture and torment for sin?


So then, when you think of hell, you have to think outside the box; viz: think of it as something beyond the limits of empirical evidence; and you have to think of it as supernatural rather than natural; viz: hades is a supernatural place, it's fire is supernatural, and it's prisoners are all incarcerated there in a supernatural condition.

You are confusing the hades with Greek Mythology.