Questions about Hell

[thethinkingrebel]

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According to the Lord's testimony as an expert witness in all matters pertaining to the afterlife, no one can either see nor enter the kingdom of God without first undergoing a second birth; which means that Noah, Seth, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon, Samson, Deborah, and all the prophets, et al; have to undergo a second birth too: no exceptions. In point of fact; Nicodemus was supposed to already know about second births so the Lord's teachings weren't all that new even in his day. So then the answer to your question is YES.


You're correct in insisting that a normal human body cannot possibly survive in blazing flame. I know that from personal experience because I was a professional welder for 40 years and I've seen what contact with fire and molten metal does to the flesh of a normal human body. However, the flames of hades aren't normal: they're supernatural; and the people in those flames right now aren't normal either. They exist there in a supernatural condition.

In the future, people being warehoused for now in hades will be resurrected to stand trial at the Great White Throne of Rev 20:11-15 after which they will undergo a second death by immersion in a reservoir of liquefied flame. However; according to Isa 66:23-24 and Mrk 9:47, though their resurrection bodies will be killed in the reservoir, their corpses won't be annihilated but will perpetually exist to provide nourishment for a very unusual fire-proof species of worm.

So then, when you think of hell, you have to think outside the box; viz: think of it as something beyond the limits of empirical evidence; and you have to think of it as supernatural rather than natural; viz: hades is a supernatural place, it's fire is supernatural, and it's prisoners are all incarcerated there in a supernatural condition.

The afterlife is really scary because it's all so strange and unusual. Take for example the burning bush that Moses encountered in the desert. Though the bush was ablaze, it wasn't consumed. That isn't normal; no, that is utterly abnormal. I grew up in San Diego and I've seen for myself what fire does to chaparral. By all rights that bush should have roared out of control— snapping and popping and shooting up sparks until it turned into blackened charcoal; but it didn't because the fire that Moses witnessed was supernatural.


If you're asking me for a precise historical date in the past when God announced His intentions to incarcerate sinners in flame; about the best I can do is sometime around the 8th century BC because that's when the experts say the book of Isaiah was written: hence the passage below.

†. Isa 66:23-24 . . All humanity will come to worship me from week to week and from month to month. And as they go out, they will see the dead bodies of those who have rebelled against me. For the worms that devour them will never die, and the fire that burns them will never go out. All who pass by will view them with utter horror.

Cliff
/

All this post is evidence of what happens when you let other people teach doctrine for you, instead of reading and studying the scriptures for yourself.

Not only is this stuff unbiblical, its inherently blasphemous, heretical, and any other word that relates negatively to disrespectful and demonic teachings.

Not only does this misrepresent God, it wholly depends on philosophy and doctrines from churches and nations that ALSO misrepresent God.

Scary stuff, and I feel for you believing in a god that does this stuff.

 

[Webers_Home]

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Romans 6:23:For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It appears to me you have made the all-too-common error of confusing eternal life with immortality. They are not the same. Immortality has to do with the characteristics of a body that cannot die; while eternal life has to do with the characteristics of a spirit that cannot die.

Bible death is just a wee bit more complicated than getting hit by a train or going down with the Titanic. For example:

†. John 5:24 . . I tell you the truth; whoever hears my word, and believes Him who sent me, has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

The Lord's statement testifies that unbelievers exist in a state of death, and his statement also testifies that eternal life can be obtained prior to the demise of one's body. Note the grammatical tense of his "have" verb: it's present tense, not future; indicating that believers have eternal life right now— no delay, and no waiting period. There's more:

†. John 3:36 . . He who believes in the Son has eternal life

†. John 6:47 . .Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

†. 1John 5:13 . . I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

In other words: Christians who lack eternal life, lack it because they are unbelievers.

Below are two more of the Lord's present-tense statements that I don't use very often because it usually gives rise to futile arguments over the Catholic Eucharist.

†. John 6:53 . . I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

In other words: some in the Lord's audience that day were dead on the hoof.

†. John 6:54 . .Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life

In other words: if someone has correctly ingested the Lord's flesh, and correctly imbibed his blood; then they have eternal life right now— no delay and no waiting period.

The usual objection to that interpretation goes like this: Well if eaters of the Lord's flesh, and drinkers of his blood have eternal life right now; then why do they still grow old and die? But that objection typically fails to take into consideration the difference between eternal life and immortality. The salient difference between the two is that eternal life is a spirit kind of life as opposed to immortality which is a solid kind of life; which is why it's possible for believers to obtain eternal life now while they reside in a non-immortal body.

†. John 3:6 . .That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

It's very possible to be standing right next to someone in an elevator car who has eternal life and not even know it.

†. John 3:8 . .The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

Continuing:

†. Eph 2:1-5 . . As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins . . . but because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions.

In other words, prior to God making them alive, Paul's friends were all dead on the hoof.

Here's another:

†. Rev 20:12-13 . . I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne . . .The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Those people John saw were all dead; yet there they were standing, and there they were being judged— including the dead brought up from hades. Had they not been dead, their names would have been found recorded in Rev 20:15's book of life.

So you see; interpreting the meaning of death in a particular context is no easy task; and certainly not as simple as the man under the sun might wish.

Incidentally, according to God's testimony as an expert witness in all matters pertaining to eternal life, people passing themselves off as His son's followers, while not possessing eternal life, do not have His son; viz: though they be called Christians; they are actually quite christless.

†. 1John 5:9-12 . .We accept human testimony; but God's testimony carries more weight because it's the testimony of God, which He has given about His son . . . And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His son. He who has The Son has this life; he who does not have this life, does not have God's son.

Christians of the opinion that they can have Christ without first obtaining eternal life, openly insinuate that the Bible's God is a person of questionable integrity who cannot be trusted to tell the truth.

†. 1John 5:10 . . Any individual who disbelieves God makes Him a liar, because they haven't believed the testimony God has given about His son.

Christless Christians are in a very bad way.

†. Rom 8:9 . . If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

In other words; christless Christians are none of the Lord's sheep.

Cliff
/

 

[JJsaint]

.
It appears to me you have made the all-too-common error of confusing eternal life with immortality. They are not the same. Immortality has to do with the characteristics of a body that cannot die; while eternal life has to do with the characteristics of a spirit that cannot die.

Bible death is just a wee bit more complicated than getting hit by a train or going down with the Titanic. For example:

†. John 5:24 . . I tell you the truth; whoever hears my word, and believes Him who sent me, has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

The Lord's statement testifies that unbelievers exist in a state of death, and his statement also testifies that eternal life can be obtained prior to the demise of one's body. Note the grammatical tense of his "have" verb: it's present tense, not future; indicating that believers have eternal life right now— no delay, and no waiting period. There's more:

†. John 3:36 . . He who believes in the Son has eternal life

†. John 6:47 . .Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

†. 1John 5:13 . . I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

In other words: Christians who lack eternal life, lack it because they are unbelievers.

Below are two more of the Lord's present-tense statements that I don't use very often because it usually gives rise to futile arguments over the Catholic Eucharist.

†. John 6:53 . . I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

In other words: some in the Lord's audience that day were dead on the hoof.

†. John 6:54 . .Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life

In other words: if someone has correctly ingested the Lord's flesh, and correctly imbibed his blood; then they have eternal life right now— no delay and no waiting period.

The usual objection to that interpretation goes like this: Well if eaters of the Lord's flesh, and drinkers of his blood have eternal life right now; then why do they still grow old and die? But that objection typically fails to take into consideration the difference between eternal life and immortality. The salient difference between the two is that eternal life is a spirit kind of life as opposed to immortality which is a solid kind of life; which is why it's possible for believers to obtain eternal life now while they reside in a non-immortal body.

†. John 3:6 . .That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

It's very possible to be standing right next to someone in an elevator car who has eternal life and not even know it.

†. John 3:8 . .The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

Continuing:

†. Eph 2:1-5 . . As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins . . . but because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions.

In other words, prior to God making them alive, Paul's friends were all dead on the hoof.

Here's another:

†. Rev 20:12-13 . . I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne . . .The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Those people John saw were all dead; yet there they were standing, and there they were being judged— including the dead brought up from hades. Had they not been dead, their names would have been found recorded in Rev 20:15's book of life.

So you see; interpreting the meaning of death in a particular context is no easy task; and certainly not as simple as the man under the sun might wish.

Incidentally, according to God's testimony as an expert witness in all matters pertaining to eternal life, people passing themselves off as His son's followers, while not possessing eternal life, do not have His son; viz: though they be called Christians; they are actually quite christless.

†. 1John 5:9-12 . .We accept human testimony; but God's testimony carries more weight because it's the testimony of God, which He has given about His son . . . And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His son. He who has The Son has this life; he who does not have this life, does not have God's son.

Christians of the opinion that they can have Christ without first obtaining eternal life, openly insinuate that the Bible's God is a person of questionable integrity who cannot be trusted to tell the truth.

†. 1John 5:10 . . Any individual who disbelieves God makes Him a liar, because they haven't believed the testimony God has given about His son.

Christless Christians are in a very bad way.

†. Rom 8:9 . . If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

In other words; christless Christians are none of the Lord's sheep.

Cliff
/

So..the wages of sin IS NOT DEATH???????????

You are trying to prove their is a burning hell which is no where in the Bible,and you are pulling lots of strings to do so to prove there is a burning hell!

Answer this:

Where in the Bible does God demands torture and torment for sin?
Where in the Bible does it state God will burn his children for ever if they are sinners?

also read up on Greek Mythology....the very mythology that you are confusing a burning hell with....

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I still have to get my head around this.



Either burning hell as a place of eternal torment and torture for gods creation not in Christ

Or plain old death in the ground without eternal life with Christ as option 2 it is confusing which the OT means.

The problem in understanding the truly accurate message about what hell is is that the biblical messages are inconsistent. You won't find it at all in the OT, and some NT texts appear to speak about it while others do not.

Hell requires some things we'd do well to me mindful of. 1st, man must have innate immortality for hell to be real.

 

[Webers_Home]

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So..the wages of sin IS NOT DEATH? Where in the Bible does God demands torture and torment for sin? Where in the Bible does it state God will burn his children for ever if they are sinners?

Those questions have been addressed already in previous posts. Sorry; but I do not care to repeat myself, especially since you didn't pay attention the first time, so there's no reason to believe you will pay attention a second time.

Cliff
/

 

[Webers_Home]

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Hell requires some things we'd do well to me mindful of. 1st, man must have innate immortality for hell to be real.

Webster's defines "immortal" as: exempt from death; viz: imperishable.

Well; the proliferation of cemeteries proves that human beings aren't immortal; in point of fact, the World Trade Center, the Haitian earthquake, and Japan's tsunami prove human beings are quite perishable rather than imperishable. So then, obviously hades' current inmates were never immortal in life or they wouldn't be down there.

In addition; John 5:24, John 6:53, and Eph 2:1-5 essentially state that people are dead on the hoof— in other words: not only is the human body not immortal, but neither is the human spirit.

FAQ : If people exist in hell for eternity, then doesn't that mean they have eternal life?

Answer : Eternal life is the life of God; which is a kind of life that never had a beginning nor will it ever have an ending. No, people in hell don't have eternal life; they have human life; which is a created kind of life rather than the life of God. The best that can be said of human life is that it's perpetual rather than eternal; in other words: once a human being comes into existence, it stays in existence— whether in a body or out of a body; human beings are permanent; but certainly not eternal.

FAQ : if human life isn't eternal, then why do so many New Testament passages attest that believers have eternal life?

Answer : Like I said, eternal life is the life of God rather than the created life of a human being. However; the life of God can be shared with others. It is, therefore, a transferrable kind of life.

†. John 5:26 . . For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in himself.

†. John 17:2 . .You granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

In other words; the Bible's Jesus was not only given eternal life; but he is also now the sole authorized distributor of the life of God; so if people want it, they have to contact him with their request.

†. John 4:10 . . If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.

Here's a bit of Christian trivia you can keep under your hat for those rare occasions where it might actually come in handy: that living water is one of the two essential elements of the miraculous birth about which the Lord spoke at John 3:3-8

†. John 3:5 . . I tell you the truth: no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

In other words: when believers undergo a birth from above, they come out of it with God's life rather than human life all over again. Pretty amazing.

Cliff
/

 

[thethinkingrebel]

The problem in understanding the truly accurate message about what hell is is that the biblical messages are inconsistent. You won't find it at all in the OT, and some NT texts appear to speak about it while others do not.

Hell requires some things we'd do well to me mindful of. 1st, man must have innate immortality for hell to be real.

Yes man must be immortal or be sustained by God in order to be alive in hell. Hell is supposed to be seperation from God 100%, therefore my own posit does not matter.

I believe the first error is to believe that Hell is a place, something of equal importance as say "Heaven", which I also believe in terms of an afterlife for humans to not exist..but just for now I will use it as an example. Hell is not the kingdom of Satan - Its his place of execution.

Also, Whilst its not going to be quick, regardless of what our translations say, theres ample evidence in the greek that it wont be forever.

Now I am sure its lovely to have it all figured out traditionalists, but please read Isaiah 66:24 and Revelation 21, and tell me whyyy we need to have spirits floating to heaven? and people burning in hell?

There is mention of "hell" in the OT, it just isnt what a traditionalist would consider hell..it is however final judgment.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

tell me whyyy we need to have spirits floating to heaven? and people burning in hell?

Fire is not only useful as a punishment; but also as a means for disposing of rubbish and toxic waste. The people in hell are there because they are not only toxic, but also highly contagious. Fire, therefore, is the ultimate sanitizer. Unfortunately, the damned are permanently diseased so they have to remain quarantined in flame in order to prevent them from infecting others. The fire depicted at Rev 20:11-15 is liquefied so it should certainly do a thorough job of it.

†. Rev 22:10-11 . . He who is filthy, let him be filthy still

Cliff
/

 

[JJsaint]

.
Those questions have been addressed already in previous posts. Sorry; but I do not care to repeat myself, especially since you didn't pay attention the first time, so there's no reason to believe you will pay attention a second time.

Cliff
/

Are the wages of sin death or torment and torture in hell fire?

 

[Free]

Are the wages of sin death or torment and torture in hell fire?

You should define "death" before asking that question.

 

[JJsaint]

You should define "death" before asking that question.

If the wages of sin is death then obviously it cannot be torment and torture in hellfire.....

 

[Free]

If the wages of sin is death then obviously it cannot be torment and torture in hellfire.....

And how does that answer what I posted? You need to define death, as it has more than one meaning in the NT.

 

[JJsaint]

And how does that answer what I posted? You need to define death, as it has more than one meaning in the NT.

Death is likened to sleep.

Deuteronomy 31:!6:And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

1 Samuel 3:3:And ere the lamp of God went out in the temple of the LORD, where the ark of God was, and Samuel was laid down to sleep;

2 Samuel 7:12:And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

1 Kings 1:21:Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders.

Job 7:21:And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

1 Kings 2:10:So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

1 Kings 11:43:And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.

DEATH IS LIKE SLEEP

Psalm 13:3:Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

John 11:11:These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

NO ONE GOES TO HEAVEN

John 3:13:And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Acts 2:29:Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Acts 2:34:For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Job 14:12:So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

MAN RETURNS TO DUST

Genesis 3:19:In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Job 10:9:Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again?

WHEN MAN DIES HE BECOMES A DEAD SOUL - SOUL DOES NOT LIVE ON

Before man was a living soul,he was a dead soul,and so it is with death,the soul dies.

Genesis 2:7:And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The soul makes up the person.

It is the Spirit that returns to God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7:Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

EVERYONE GOES TO THE GRAVE - THERE ARE NO SEPARATE SECTIONS.

Job 3:11-19:11Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly? 12Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?
13For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,
14With kings and counsellors of the earth, which build desolate places for themselves;
15Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver:
16Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.
17There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.
18There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.
19The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

Read post 2 for more info


PEOPLE ARE RAISED AT THE FIRST RESURRECTION


Revelations 20:5-6:

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Revelations 20:13:And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.




You have to ask,if people live on in other realms,then how can they be resurrected if they are already resurrected?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Not really -

Isn't 'burning hell' as scary as 'the OT flood'?

"Burning hell" is a possible future for us when we die.

And the "OT Flood" won't happen again - so nothing to worry about at all.

 

[John 8:32]

And how does that answer what I posted? You need to define death, as it has more than one meaning in the NT.

Well alrighty then...

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.-KJV

The word for perish here is #622 in Strong's...

apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly​

Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Short Definition: I destroy, lose, am perishing
Definition: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.-KJV

θάνατοςdeaththanatos
θάνατος (properly, an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively)
Derivation: from G2348;
KJV Usage: X deadly, (be…) death. G2348

Sorry for the discrepencies in the formatting, not at my usual computer with the tools I like to use. Anyhoo, the death is death. A good study is to investigate what death means in the N.T. It does not mean a living separation, that is the lie the Devil told our first parents...

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

And people have believed it ever since.

 

[thethinkingrebel]

Death is likened to sleep.

Deuteronomy 31:!6:And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

1 Samuel 3:3:And ere the lamp of God went out in the temple of the LORD, where the ark of God was, and Samuel was laid down to sleep;

2 Samuel 7:12:And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

1 Kings 1:21:Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders.

Job 7:21:And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

1 Kings 2:10:So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

1 Kings 11:43:And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.

DEATH IS LIKE SLEEP

Psalm 13:3:Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

John 11:11:These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

NO ONE GOES TO HEAVEN

John 3:13:And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Acts 2:29:Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Acts 2:34:For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Job 14:12:So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

MAN RETURNS TO DUST

Genesis 3:19:In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Job 10:9:Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again?

WHEN MAN DIES HE BECOMES A DEAD SOUL - SOUL DOES NOT LIVE ON

Before man was a living soul,he was a dead soul,and so it is with death,the soul dies.

Genesis 2:7:And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The soul makes up the person.

It is the Spirit that returns to God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7:Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

EVERYONE GOES TO THE GRAVE - THERE ARE NO SEPARATE SECTIONS.

Job 3:11-19:11Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly? 12Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?
13For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,
14With kings and counsellors of the earth, which build desolate places for themselves;
15Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver:
16Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.
17There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.
18There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.
19The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

Read post 2 for more info


PEOPLE ARE RAISED AT THE FIRST RESURRECTION


Revelations 20:5-6:

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Revelations 20:13:And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.




You have to ask,if people live on in other realms,then how can they be resurrected if they are already resurrected?

Pretty much definitive proof that what we are saying here is the truth. Well done

 

[skraito]

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

what is born of water and born of spirit here mean by Jesus Christ?

So only those who born of water and spirit can enter heaven.

Hi Guys,

Let me explain john 3:5 what the Lord mean by born of water and born of spirit. As it is so important to our salvation.

Born of water.

The Bible tells us that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God†(Rom 3:23). That is why Jesus said that the only way you can see the kingdom of God is to be “born again†(Jn 3:3).

How can that happen? you ask. Can a person just crawl back into his mother and be born again? someone asked Jesus.

Jesus replied, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God†(Jn 3:5). And He enabled us to be born again of water through water baptism.

The Bible calls baptism the “washing of regeneration†(Titus 3:5) because it effects a spiritual transformation. When you are immersed in the living water, your sinful being dies and is buried, and you are clothed with a new life—the life of Jesus Christ (Col 2:11-13).

So Water baptism is necessary for our salvation as it is during water baptism that your sin is forgiven.

How Can Water Baptism Wash Away Sins?

The Bible tells us that “according to the law almost all things are purged with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission†(Heb 9:22). Any covenant was dedicated with blood. No amount of sacrifice, however, could atone for mankind’s sins and fully restore our relationship with God. The only means of redemption was through the Lord’s own blood (Col 1:14; Rev 1:5). Jesus Christ’s blood seals a new and everlasting covenant between God and His children (Heb 12:24).

If baptism were merely immersion in water, then it would be nothing but a religious rite, since water cannot take away guilt. But the mystery of baptism lies in the profound unity of water, blood, and the Holy Spirit.

After Jesus died on the cross, “one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe†(Jn 19:34-35).

John, a disciple of Jesus, witnessed how Jesus Christ poured out His blood along with water and opened the fountain of cleansing. He explained the meaning of what he saw:

This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth…there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and these three agree as one (1 Jn 5:6-8).

Baptism is where water and blood come together under the eternal Spirit of God. Jesus Christ arose from death by the Holy Spirit (1 Pet 3:18) to enter heaven as our mediator before God (Heb 9:15, 24). The Holy Spirit, which God gives to believers, testifies that Jesus is alive and that His blood cleanses us (Heb 9:14) today. So while a sinner is immersed in water physically, his spiritual being is being cleansed in the blood of Christ (Heb 10:22: “washed†= immersed).

No sin is too great to be forgiven. God is ready to pardon everyone who turns back to Him and seeks cleansing. But you must first accept Jesus Christ and His gospel of salvation, confess your sins before God, and determine to follow His words.

“Repent,†the apostle Peter tells us, “and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins†(Acts 2:38).

Notice it is not at repent and accepting Jesus Christ our sins are forgiven but through baptism.

So born of water mean water baptism.

How about born of Spirit?

Titus 3:5

New King James Version (NKJV)

5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit

How can we be renew by the Holy Spirit if we dont have Holy Spirit in us? the other question we should ask when actually do i receive the Holy Spirit. Is it when I confess Jesus Christ is saviour? or during baptism or if not when?

The only evidence that someone has received Holy Spirit is when he can speak in tounge. But why some said Speaking in tounge is just a gift and not everyone can speak in tounge. The question should we ask do all speak in tounge if we received Holy Spirit? the answer is Yes all speak in tounge. Those who cant speak in tounge mean they didnt received the Holy Spirit yet.

Another question that we should ask. So many churches today claim they have the Holy Spirit. So which one is right? do they received the same spirit which is Holy Spirit?

John 16:13
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

Here the Lord call Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth and will guide us into all truth. If someone said baptism is not necessary for our salvation and they claim they received Holy Spirit how is that spirit is the Holy Spirit. For if we do some math calculation 1+1 = 2 and those that said 1+1 = 2.1 although miss by one point one is not the truth.

So Another question that we should ask. Have you really born by water and by Spirit? for those who are not born of water and spirit will not enter heaven. So make sure ure sure with your own salvation.

True Jesus Church tjc.org

 

[westtexas]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.-KJV

The word for perish here is #622 in Strong's...

apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly​

Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Sapollumipeech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Short Definition: I destroy, lose, am perishing
Definition: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).

And this is from Vines Expository Dictionary:

apollumi-a strenghtened form of ollumi, signifies "to destroy utterly", in middle voice, "to perish". THE IDEA IS NOT EXTINCTION but ruin, loss, NOT OF BEING, BUT OF WELL-BEING. (Vines Expository Dictionary pg. 164--caps are mine)

This doesn't fit your theology very well, does it.
Westtexas

 

[Free]

Death is likened to sleep.

Deuteronomy 31:!6:And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

1 Samuel 3:3:And ere the lamp of God went out in the temple of the LORD, where the ark of God was, and Samuel was laid down to sleep;

2 Samuel 7:12:And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

1 Kings 1:21:Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders.

Job 7:21:And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

1 Kings 2:10:So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

1 Kings 11:43:And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.

DEATH IS LIKE SLEEP

Psalm 13:3:Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

John 11:11:These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

NO ONE GOES TO HEAVEN

John 3:13:And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Acts 2:29:Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Acts 2:34:For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Job 14:12:So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

MAN RETURNS TO DUST

Genesis 3:19:In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Job 10:9:Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again?

WHEN MAN DIES HE BECOMES A DEAD SOUL - SOUL DOES NOT LIVE ON

Before man was a living soul,he was a dead soul,and so it is with death,the soul dies.

Genesis 2:7:And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The soul makes up the person.

It is the Spirit that returns to God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7:Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

EVERYONE GOES TO THE GRAVE - THERE ARE NO SEPARATE SECTIONS.

Job 3:11-19:11Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly? 12Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?
13For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,
14With kings and counsellors of the earth, which build desolate places for themselves;
15Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver:
16Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.
17There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.
18There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.
19The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

Read post 2 for more info


PEOPLE ARE RAISED AT THE FIRST RESURRECTION


Revelations 20:5-6:

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Revelations 20:13:And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.




You have to ask,if people live on in other realms,then how can they be resurrected if they are already resurrected?

Pretty much definitive proof that what we are saying here is the truth. Well done

Not really. It doesn't answer what was asked. "Death" must be defined first and posting passages in which the word "death" appears does give us a complete definition of death and all it's nuances.

 

[westtexas]

Death is likened to sleep.

I won't speak for Free-but your answer to him is much too simplistic and inaccurate.

This is from Vines:
thanatos, "death" is used in scripture of:
(b)the separation of man from God; Adam died on the day he disobeyed God, Gen. 2:17, and hence all mankind are born in the same spiritual condition, from which, however, those who believe in Christ are delivered. "Death" is the opposite of life; it never denotes non-existence. As spiritual life is "conscious existence in communion with God", so spiritual death is "conscious existence in separation away from God". Vines Expository Dictionary pg. 149

Any thoughts? Westtexas