Questions Regarding Free WIll

[Hospes]

First, I will define free will as the ability for a person to choose to do good or evil, regardless of the influences, for good or for evil, that may work upon them.

I know from posts on this site that a number of writers find this as part of the foundation of their Christian doctrine. I'd like to ask some questions of those people. So let me start with a few:

1. If you believe in free-will and eternal security, how would you explain why a person who chooses to believe in Christ - i.e. is born-again - cannot have the option to stop believing, i.e. stop being born-again. If they walked in the door, shouldn't they be free to walk out?
2. Do we lose free-will once we die? If we do not, what keeps one of the multitudes of Christians in heaven from using their free-will to choose to do evil at some point in eternity?
3. I see posts that teach God is not responsible for sin because he gave us free-will. But if God gives me the ability and choice to do great evil against the innocent, is He not in some way responsible for the evil I have committed? If I give a person the choice and ability to rob your house and they do just that, am I not in some degree responsible for your loss? I guess I am not seeing free-will as a good argument for getting God off the hook for my evil.
4. If free-will is necessary for love, wouldn't you have to believe - in order for the Trinity to love us or one another - that the Trinity has free-will, i.e. the option to choose evil?

I guess that's a good start.

 

[JohnDB]

Pelagianism?
I find that the story of Sampson answers most of those questions.
With some really scary answers to those questions.

 

[Mike]

First, I will define free will as the ability for a person to choose to do good or evil, regardless of the influences, for good or for evil, that may work upon them.

Hospes, I agree with you as it relates to being Chosen as opposed to choosing Christ, but I'm confused by your definition. I often try to steer people away from the line of thinking that predetermination drives our everyday decisions. I always take it back to the reason we are saved. We are Chosen by Him, and our salvation has nothing to do with anything we do or any decision we make.

Romans 3:11-18 says that we all fall short. Even though you and I share the same view of how and why we are saved, we sin daily as well. And that is what confuses me about your definition. Can you explain? Thanks, brother!

 

[chessman]

how would you explain why a person who chooses to believe in Christ - i.e. is born-again - cannot have the option to stop believing,

Who says a person who has choosen to believe in Christ suddenly looses his/her free will ("cannot have the option to stop believing")?
1. Your first question, as worded, assumes a saved person suddenly looses their free will as per your definition of free will. I do not believe that is the case. Saved people do have free will, before and after conversion. But to explain how/why I believe it is no free willed saved person ever stops believing; They (we) simply now have a permant Helper (The Holy Spirit) influencing them (me) as needed in order to stay in the fold. A very, very good Helper, BTW. One might say perfect Helper. And God's discipline. And no, I don't see how the Holy Spirit's influence(s) upon us/me violates free will (per your definition) any more than good parental influence violates a child's free will. If Jesus looses even one of His sheep (to Hell), He's failed, not the sheep, IMO.

2.

Do we lose free-will once we die?

No. But I submit that we do lose all those nasty fallen worldly influences and now live in Paridise with Jesus. Upon reserrection, too.

... what keeps one of the multitudes of Christians in heaven from using their free-will to choose to do evil at some point in eternity?

Um, Jesus!

3.

if God gives me the ability and choice to do great evil against the innocent, is He not in some way responsible for the evil I have committed?

Nope. You did say God gave you the ability to choose good or evil (free will), right? And oh how He's influenced us all (saved or not) to do good every day.

4.

If free-will is necessary for love, wouldn't you have to believe - in order for the Trinity to love us or one another - that the Trinity has free-will, i.e. the option to choose evil?

Free will is necessary for creatures to love their Creator. The Trinity is no creature.

 

[Hospes]

Hospes, I agree with you as it relates to being Chosen as opposed to choosing Christ, but I'm confused by your definition. I often try to steer people away from the line of thinking that predetermination drives our everyday decisions. I always take it back to the reason we are saved. We are Chosen by Him, and our salvation has nothing to do with anything we do or any decision we make.

Romans 3:11-18 says that we all fall short. Even though you and I share the same view of how and why we are saved, we sin daily as well. And that is what confuses me about your definition. Can you explain? Thanks, brother!

I tried to define the term not as I see it, but rather per the posts I have read in which the poster is using it to explain the fall of angels and the fall of Adam and Eve. The whole free-will line of defense is murky to me and I am honestly trying to understand how, or if, others see it clearly. So, I hope you see I am trying to keep my own understanding of good, evil, and how God relates to either out of this discussion. At least for now.

 

[Hospes]

Thanks , Chessman, for replying.

If you believe in free-will and eternal security, how would you explain why a person who chooses to believe in Christ - i.e. is born-again - cannot have the option to stop believing, i.e. stop being born-again. If they walked in the door, shouldn't they be free to walk out?

Who says a person who has chosen to believe in Christ suddenly looses his/her free will ("cannot have the option to stop believing")?
Your first question, as worded, assumes a saved person suddenly looses their free will as per your definition of free will. I do not believe that is the case. Saved people do have free will, before and after conversion. But to explain how/why I believe it is no free willed saved person ever stops believing; They (we) simply now have a permanent Helper (The Holy Spirit) influencing them (me) as needed in order to stay in the fold. A very, very good Helper, BTW. One might say perfect Helper. And God's discipline. And no, I don't see how the Holy Spirit's influence(s) upon us/me violates free will (per your definition) any more than good parental influence violates a child's free will. If Jesus looses even one of His sheep (to Hell), He's failed, not the sheep, IMO.

If you still have the free-will to stop believing once you are saved, I struggle how you can then write you will not stop believing due to the influences of the Holy Spirit. Does the Holy Spirit always out-influence all influences affecting your free-will? If not, why is it not a possibility a born-again person can be un-born?

​

Do we lose free-will once we die?...

No. But I submit that we do lose all those nasty fallen worldly influences and now live in Paradise with Jesus. Upon resurrection, too.

...If we do not, what keeps one of the multitudes of Christians in heaven from using their free-will to choose to do evil at some point in eternity?

Um, Jesus!

How would Jesus' presence be any different than with Adam and Eve in the Garden or with Satan and the angels in heaven? In both cases, creatures chose rebellion against their Maker.​

I see posts that teach God is not responsible for sin because he gave us free-will. But if God gives me the ability and choice to do great evil against the innocent, is He not in some way responsible for the evil I have committed? If I give a person the choice and ability to rob your house and they do just that, am I not in some degree responsible for your loss? I guess I am not seeing free-will as a good argument for getting God off the hook for my evil.

[Answering the underlined portion] Nope. You did say God gave you the ability to choose good or evil (free will), right? And oh how He's influenced us all (saved or not) to do good every day.

Given my analogous question immediately following the question you addressed, would there be no guilt on my part for the robbery of your house?
​

If free-will is necessary for love, wouldn't you have to believe - in order for the Trinity to love us or one another - that the Trinity has free-will, i.e. the option to choose evil?

Free will is necessary for creatures to love their Creator. The Trinity is no creature.

So in some cases, at least in the case of God, free will is not necessary for love?
(BTW, Amen to your last statement!!)
​

Thanks, again.


GENERAL NOTE:
I am not necessarily expressing any of my own beliefs in any of my questions. In other words, please do not take my question as a disagreement. Example, when Chessman says it is Jesus who will keep us for eternity and I question his thoughts about it, it does not mean I think Jesus will not keep us for eternity.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

First, I will define free will as the ability for a person to choose to do good or evil, regardless of the influences, for good or for evil, that may work upon them.

I know from posts on this site that a number of writers find this as part of the foundation of their Christian doctrine. I'd like to ask some questions of those people. So let me start with a few:

1. If you believe in free-will and eternal security, how would you explain why a person who chooses to believe in Christ - i.e. is born-again - cannot have the option to stop believing, i.e. stop being born-again. If they walked in the door, shouldn't they be free to walk out?
2. Do we lose free-will once we die? If we do not, what keeps one of the multitudes of Christians in heaven from using their free-will to choose to do evil at some point in eternity?
3. I see posts that teach God is not responsible for sin because he gave us free-will. But if God gives me the ability and choice to do great evil against the innocent, is He not in some way responsible for the evil I have committed? If I give a person the choice and ability to rob your house and they do just that, am I not in some degree responsible for your loss? I guess I am not seeing free-will as a good argument for getting God off the hook for my evil.
4. If free-will is necessary for love, wouldn't you have to believe - in order for the Trinity to love us or one another - that the Trinity has free-will, i.e. the option to choose evil?

I guess that's a good start.

I'll try to answer. But before I do,I want to explain that I think both free will and predestination are true, or at least hold a lot of merrit. I say this because I can observe my own freedom to choose and make decisions, and I believe from the bible that God is all knowing and that He has a plan.

Question 1.
This is a hard one for me, because though I trust the words of the bible, and I really hope in the idea of being saved once means being saved for your whole life, I have also seen a few people who seemed to walk away from our faith. The parable of the 4 soils comes to mind with some people rejecting the Word of God right away, two two different means of losing faith, to those who's faith stay strong and yield a good crop. (Mathew 13:1-23). One explaination for this observation of leaving the faith is that those people were never really saved then. Which if true then that shakes my confidance that anyone can be secure in their knowledge of being saved. For lack of a better word it could all be comparable to an optical illusion, because how would any of us know we're really saved or not until we meet our maker in death? I have no answer for the above question, but I do have hope. Hope that all who are saved are saved through their entire life, even if I can't explain it.

Question 2.
We'll find out what happens to us when we die, after we die. The focus for answers when there are none leads to a lot of philosophies, and while intreasting to think on, most of them can be just as true as their other competing perspectives without us coming closer to knowing which (if any) of them are true.

Question 3.
We live in a broken world. One that has been broken and breaking since the fall of Adam and Eve. We've been flooded out, and in Revelations it seems that life will be put to a massive loss again even if it is not by a massive flood. Why God allowed this to happen, I honestly don't know outside of a guess that there is a bigger picture at play here then our human lives and human history. I think it's possible that Gid is using us as a means to wipe any temptation to turn from Him by the other authorities in Heaven. Kind of like with Satan's rebellion, and if any angels followed, let the history and struggle of mankind be a testimony to never let that occurrence in heaven be repeated. It's my best guess. I do think God takes our sitution with a great amount of responsibility. He even sent His Son to take away the burdens of our sins, and gave us a history and tradition through Isreal to understand the sacrifice to be for removing our sins.

Question 4.
I suppose I would define free will to be different then you do. That change in defination changes a lot. In my opinion free will is the free ability to choose and make one's choices and actions. It has the implications of good and evil in it, but is not defined by the presence of both options of good and options of evil to choose from. In my opinion, evil is at it's root and it's growth the turning away from God. The Trinity being God, Jesus, and The Holy Spirit can not turn away from themselves. Just like you can't turn away from yourself nor I turn away from myself. But it's not a limitation to our ability to freely make our decisions and choices and actions.

*Side note, there is a verse that is translated that God does evil. The wording and context when looked up the meaning in a codex sort of thing is that God causes both blessing and disasters (evil). But I think there things that are differences between evil from turning away from God or by submitting to our sins; and great devastations of punishments sent from God, or devestations whether sent or not show the world to be broken by both natural disasters and man made disasters.

 

[chessman]

Thanks, again.

You're welcome. You pose very interesting questions.

Does the Holy Spirit always out-influence all influences affecting your free-will?

No, In this world we still live with afflictions affecting our free will and thus make bad choices (i.e. we sin). In the New World though, no more afflictions. Plus, we will be living in the very presence of the Son, how could we ever deny Him?

I struggle how you can then write you will not stop believing due to the influences of the Holy Spirit.

Because I, thru the power of The Holy Spirit, believed in Christ who has already conqured the world. That same Spirit now guides me into all truth. That's the very reason Jesus left us with the Holy Spirit. Note, it's a guiding into (an influencial process) as I'm not fully there yet. Just headed there under His guidence.

why is it not a possibility a born-again person can be un-born?

Because that would be a failure of the Holy Spirit to accomplish His job. I reject that notion on the basis of The Holy Spirit being God and perfect.

How would Jesus' presence be any different than with Adam and Eve in the Garden or with Satan and the angels in heaven? In both cases, creatures chose rebellion against their Maker.

In this world, we (as were Adam and Eve) are still being afflicted by these worldly influences. Adam and Eve were in a garden within this world (along with Satan) not in the New World which will be free of Satan and ALL afflictions. The analogy of Eden to God's New World seems to assume they are they same. They aren't.

Given my analogous question immediately following the question you addressed, would there be no guilt on my part for the robbery of your house?

No. Do you have children and if so would you be guilty if your child freely chose to rob a house even though you'd taught the child robbery is wrong? I wouldn't think you guilty.

So in some cases, at least in the case of God, free will is not necessary for love?

I think the analogical language comparisons of God's attributes to our attributes only go so far. Humans are not little gods, so comparing how we love (each other or God) to how Love occurs within the eternal Trinity is only an image. Not a direct comparison.

 

[Edward]

First, I will define free will as the ability for a person to choose to do good or evil, regardless of the influences, for good or for evil, that may work upon them.

I know from posts on this site that a number of writers find this as part of the foundation of their Christian doctrine. I'd like to ask some questions of those people. So let me start with a few:

1. If you believe in free-will and eternal security, how would you explain why a person who chooses to believe in Christ - i.e. is born-again - cannot have the option to stop believing, i.e. stop being born-again. If they walked in the door, shouldn't they be free to walk out?
2. Do we lose free-will once we die? If we do not, what keeps one of the multitudes of Christians in heaven from using their free-will to choose to do evil at some point in eternity?
3. I see posts that teach God is not responsible for sin because he gave us free-will. But if God gives me the ability and choice to do great evil against the innocent, is He not in some way responsible for the evil I have committed? If I give a person the choice and ability to rob your house and they do just that, am I not in some degree responsible for your loss? I guess I am not seeing free-will as a good argument for getting God off the hook for my evil.
4. If free-will is necessary for love, wouldn't you have to believe - in order for the Trinity to love us or one another - that the Trinity has free-will, i.e. the option to choose evil?

I guess that's a good start.

1. People are free to turn and walk back out. God wont keep you in heaven against your will.

2. No, we wont lose free will when we die in the flesh. We will have free will in heaven. There will not be liars there, or murderers, adulterers, thieves, etc., because God looks at the heart...and wont redeem them so they wont be there! That scripture that says, many will say Lord Lord on that day...will be a lot of people who think osas and God will take away the evil intentions of their heart, with no effort on their part (ha!).

3. How could you blame God for your actions? You did it. The heart is deceitfully wicked. Most sins are not even the devils fault, they're from the evil lusts of our own heart. A house divided against itself can not stand...and God don't roll like that. So have fun searching for someone to point the finger of guilt at...when we should be looking in the mirror.

4. Maybe this question needs it's own thread. I'll need time to chew on this one...

 

[smaller]

I started out my believing life in the freewill camps. That's what I was taught. And let's face it. The world teaches us this as well. How many of us are advised by our "free" governments that we can be anything we want to be? Most of us are taught that from a very early age. So it's a hard understanding to break. It's so ingrained into us. Programmed even.

I had to confront this matter eventually, after salvation. Most who have a succinct engagement with our Savior quite normally go about ridding their lives of everything they consider to be a sin. I was very diligent in this exercise (and remain so) but eventually this issue boiled down to the "source" of sin, which is internal, in temptations and deceptions and also even in lack of insight into the scriptures i.e. not understanding things, partial sight as Paul may describe it.

My scriptural "discoveries" in this arena eventually convinced me that my will was in fact not free whatsoever and quite well bound. I was not able to completely rid myself of internal temptations. I don't think anyone truthfully does. I was not able to rid myself of evil present with me. I don't think anyone truthfully does.

The source of these issues are quite well described by Paul for himself, in Romans 7, in particular vs. 7-13, where Paul shows that sin dwelling in the flesh takes hold of the law and caused every manner of concupiscence to transpire in him. That would be "in his mind." Paul concluded from that truthful exercise that evil was present with him. Romans 7:21. And from this he also concluded that he was a wretched man, because of this conflict in his mind/heart/flesh. Romans 7:24. Let's just say I "relate" to what Paul proposes in these matters from my own experiences with the same matters.

This pinpointed the problem, for me at least. I appreciate the vivid truthful reality of this matter. And it showed me my will was not free whatsoever. And that the mind of indwelling sin has a mind of it's own that I have to contend with in my own flesh. Paul described the sin that dwelt in his flesh "no longer I" twice in Romans 7:17-21.

Free? I might say the source of my freedom, Christ, is free. And in Him, I am also free. But that does not speak to the entire package of who "I" presently am or who any other believer presently is. I think we all deal with similar "issues" as the above. I would not term the whole of myself or my will presently free.

It is my HOPE for that eventuality, but I do not really know what that might consist of. Because I only see in part. Just as Paul saw. Only in part. If we follow Paul as Paul advises us to do, we should be able to conclude that we also see only in part. Seeing in part alone precludes any truth claims of freedom. After all, what mind of us doesn't want to see more? How can we see freedom when seeing in part? We might see our own illusions or delusions or fantasies of freedom, but it's not yet a reality. Not at all. I would not consider partial sight "free" will. My will however will lead me to fantasy's and delusions, if not kept in check. Again, not free. 1 Cor. 13:12.

I suspect there is a great deal of wisdom in Paul's sights of glorying in his infirmities/weakness. 2 Cor. 11:13. Paul presents in 2 Cor. 12:9 that to glory in our weakness, our infirmites, shows us our need for the Power of Christ to be upon us in His Grace. This is an inverse principle for the natural/flesh mind who prefers, rather, fantasies and delusions.

Just stepping through were I was prior in the freewill camp, and why I left such claims far behind, quite long ago now. It did not hurt me any to put my fantasies and delusions of freedom in check mate.

God saves the afflicted, the sinners. I am afflicted and a sinner. I no longer have to prove it to be true.

 

[Kidron]

First, I will define free will as the ability for a person to choose to do good or evil, regardless of the influences, for good or for evil, that may work upon them.

I know from posts on this site that a number of writers find this as part of the foundation of their Christian doctrine. I'd like to ask some questions of those people. So let me start with a few:

1. If you believe in free-will and eternal security, how would you explain why a person who chooses to believe in Christ - i.e. is born-again - cannot have the option to stop believing, i.e. stop being born-again. If they walked in the door, shouldn't they be free to walk out?
2. Do we lose free-will once we die? If we do not, what keeps one of the multitudes of Christians in heaven from using their free-will to choose to do evil at some point in eternity?
3. I see posts that teach God is not responsible for sin because he gave us free-will. But if God gives me the ability and choice to do great evil against the innocent, is He not in some way responsible for the evil I have committed? If I give a person the choice and ability to rob your house and they do just that, am I not in some degree responsible for your loss? I guess I am not seeing free-will as a good argument for getting God off the hook for my evil.
4. If free-will is necessary for love, wouldn't you have to believe - in order for the Trinity to love us or one another - that the Trinity has free-will, i.e. the option to choose evil?

I guess that's a good start.

1. If you believe in free-will and eternal security, how would you explain why a person who chooses to believe in Christ - i.e. is born-again - cannot have the option to stop believing, i.e. stop being born-again. If they walked in the door, shouldn't they be free to walk out?

Salvation is not dependent on "keep believing"....= this is a misunderstanding about "faith", as when a person believes they have to hold undo or abide in this word "faith", they are actually trying to establish their salvation based on their faith, as if faith is the savior.
But faith isnt....faith is just the "decision moment" that happens ONCE IN YOUR LIFE, when a person "trusts CHRIST" and at that INSTANT, God redeems them, SAVES them, Forgives them, and all of this (redemption) is only based on Christ's sacrifice.
Its Jesus, via GOD who does the SAVING< and faith is a one time event of TRUST, that God accepted on your behalf to save you.
Done deal.
So, your faith didnt save you, but your faith was accepted that very second by GOD when your trusted Christ, and God then Saved you.
This is why the scripture says...."Faith is Counted as RIGHTEOUSNESS".
God takes your faith, and based on your this trust He Gives you..= "The Gift of righteousness', that establishes you as SAVED.
AS to be "righteous" is to be like Him.....and that is what the blood of Jesus bought for you and provided for you.
It provided you HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS< the very second you trusted Christ.
And now you are "in Christ' and ..."as Jesus IS so are WE in this WORLD" right now, and that never changes.
So, at that "decision moment", you received God's righteousness and the Atonement for your sins, and your were born again, instantly.
And all of this is provided for you the instant you trusted Jesus as your savior and you received him in your heart to be so and you are "born again".
After this, God completes your salvation because Jesus finishes your faith.

Hebrews 8:12
Hebrews 12:2
Philippians 1:6

1. Do we lose free-will once we die? If we do not, what keeps one of the multitudes of Christians in heaven from using their free-will to choose to do evil at some point in eternity?

Your bible tells you that "as Jesus IS (right now) so are you in the world"....so, this is "spiritually" = born again, "In Christ".
In heaven you'll be just like Jesus, and have a new body.
So, unless Jesus lost his Free will, then you wont be losing yours any time soon....

1. I see posts that teach God is not responsible for sin because he gave us free-will. But if God gives me the ability and choice to do great evil against the innocent, is He not in some way responsible for the evil I have committed?

You are born a free moral agent with a big issue....and that issue, is that you have a fallen nature.
You have a fallen Adamic nature that is inclined to sin, that loves to, actually.
Now, im going to get really deep and then pull way back ( to the salvation stuff)..., but i will show you something that your preacher or your priest or your bible teacher has not shown you...... more then likely.
God is a very responsible Holy being, and He takes personal responsibility-accountability very very seriously.
God understand that while Adam and Eve blew it, ....we didnt......we didnt ask to be born into this "adamic" mess.
So, What Salvation actually is.....Is 2 things...... 1.) Its God taking the responsibility for your situation by sacrificing himself to pay for your sins......2.) so that you can be restored into His eternal family as His GIFT of Love.
That is why He came here from Heaven born as a man, and died on a cross.......God was being culpable for the situation that humanity is born into, that we didnt ask to be born into.
God sees that we are here, not by choice and STUCK, and so, to solve this, He loves us so much that He personally "laid down His life for us, because there is no greater love".....
So, if you really want to know what "salvation'' Is, its God solving a situation for us that we didnt ask to be put into and have no control over it.
So, He came down from Heaven, wrapped himself in OUR BODY, and hung it up ON A CROSS to sacrifice it to SAVE US because He loves us so so so much that He was willing to die to solve our (sin) issue and get us back into His family.

1. If free-will is necessary for love, wouldn't you have to believe - in order for the Trinity to love us or one another - that the Trinity has free-will, i.e. the option to choose evil?

Jesus is a part of the "trinity", and your bible says he was tempted in ALL THINGS just like you, yet, without sin.

 

[th1b.taylor]

First, I will define free will as the ability for a person to choose to do good or evil, regardless of the influences, for good or for evil, that may work upon them.

I know from posts on this site that a number of writers find this as part of the foundation of their Christian doctrine. I'd like to ask some questions of those people. So let me start with a few:If you believe in free-will and eternal security, how would you explain why a person who chooses to believe in Christ - i.e. is born-again - cannot have the option to stop believing, i.e. stop being born-again. If they walked in the door, shouldn't they be free to walk out?

I know folks must be sick of it but again I reference the Barna Survey of the American Church in the mid-eighties and Jesus speaking of the Wide Gate and the Narrow Gate.

God sees the spiritual heart of man but none of us can see that and do not know their hearts except for their fruit nd thus, we know not he that is saved and he that is lost, there are too many pretenders.

Do we lose free-will once we die? If we do not, what keeps one of the multitudes of Christians in heaven from using their free-will to choose to do evil at some point in eternity?

Isaiah 14:12-14 & Ezekial 28:12-18 speaks of Lucifer falling from Heaven to the Earth and when we study this from a good study bible, I use the Nave's, we learn that the Angels have the same Free Will God created man with and a third of all the Angels chose to follow Satan, then Lucifer, in rebelling against God. I am of the opinion that the answer is no for this and one more reason.

As I read the scriptures I see a Loving God desiring love. Love requires Hate and Dislike to be possible for it not to be a Computer Programed Robotic response.

I see posts that teach God is not responsible for sin because he gave us free-will. But if God gives me the ability and choice to do great evil against the innocent, is He not in some way responsible for the evil I have committed?

No, no more than any Commander whose men misuse their powerful positions while seated under him. i.e. God has not ordered us to slaughter our own children and in fact God hates that we sacrifice our offspring to the Sex Gods.

If I give a person the choice and ability to rob your house and they do just that, am I not in some degree responsible for your loss?

Giving you, figuratively, the God Head for a moment. Can you, short of using your foreknowledge, prevent a free will from any action? It is foreknowledge because He saw it happen before we were created. (Isaiah 42:9&10)

I guess I am not seeing free-will as a good argument for getting God off the hook for my evil.

God made you perfect and to have done less would have produced robots that give pleasure like a toy does a child, for a season.[/quote]
If free-will is necessary for love, wouldn't you have to believe - in order for the Trinity to love us or one another - that the Trinity has free-will, i.e. the option to choose evil?[/QUOTE] God can choose evil but that would then be Satan and no longer God, an enigma, I admit.

 

[Edward]

I started out my believing life in the freewill camps. That's what I was taught. And let's face it. The world teaches us this as well. How many of us are advised by our "free" governments that we can be anything we want to be? Most of us are taught that from a very early age. So it's a hard understanding to break. It's so ingrained into us. Programmed even.

I had to confront this matter eventually, after salvation. Most who have a succinct engagement with our Savior quite normally go about ridding their lives of everything they consider to be a sin. I was very diligent in this exercise (and remain so) but eventually this issue boiled down to the "source" of sin, which is internal, in temptations and deceptions and also even in lack of insight into the scriptures i.e. not understanding things, partial sight as Paul may describe it.

My scriptural "discoveries" in this arena eventually convinced me that my will was in fact not free whatsoever and quite well bound. I was not able to completely rid myself of internal temptations. I don't think anyone truthfully does. I was not able to rid myself of evil present with me. I don't think anyone truthfully does.

The source of these issues are quite well described by Paul for himself, in Romans 7, in particular vs. 7-13, where Paul shows that sin dwelling in the flesh takes hold of the law and caused every manner of concupiscence to transpire in him. That would be "in his mind." Paul concluded from that truthful exercise that evil was present with him. Romans 7:21. And from this he also concluded that he was a wretched man, because of this conflict in his mind/heart/flesh. Romans 7:24. Let's just say I "relate" to what Paul proposes in these matters from my own experiences with the same matters.

This pinpointed the problem, for me at least. I appreciate the vivid truthful reality of this matter. And it showed me my will was not free whatsoever. And that the mind of indwelling sin has a mind of it's own that I have to contend with in my own flesh. Paul described the sin that dwelt in his flesh "no longer I" twice in Romans 7:17-21.

Free? I might say the source of my freedom, Christ, is free. And in Him, I am also free. But that does not speak to the entire package of who "I" presently am or who any other believer presently is. I think we all deal with similar "issues" as the above. I would not term the whole of myself or my will presently free.

It is my HOPE for that eventuality, but I do not really know what that might consist of. Because I only see in part. Just as Paul saw. Only in part. If we follow Paul as Paul advises us to do, we should be able to conclude that we also see only in part. Seeing in part alone precludes any truth claims of freedom. After all, what mind of us doesn't want to see more? How can we see freedom when seeing in part? We might see our own illusions or delusions or fantasies of freedom, but it's not yet a reality. Not at all. I would not consider partial sight "free" will. My will however will lead me to fantasy's and delusions, if not kept in check. Again, not free. 1 Cor. 13:12.

I suspect there is a great deal of wisdom in Paul's sights of glorying in his infirmities/weakness. 2 Cor. 11:13. Paul presents in 2 Cor. 12:9 that to glory in our weakness, our infirmites, shows us our need for the Power of Christ to be upon us in His Grace. This is an inverse principle for the natural/flesh mind who prefers, rather, fantasies and delusions.

Just stepping through were I was prior in the freewill camp, and why I left such claims far behind, quite long ago now. It did not hurt me any to put my fantasies and delusions of freedom in check mate.

God saves the afflicted, the sinners. I am afflicted and a sinner. I no longer have to prove it to be true.

I've considered this too, and what I came up with is, sin does dwell in us and exerts influence upon us like paul says. Alone, we could not stand, we need Jesus or we will die.

But it's the condition of our heart that is important. At the time that sin manifests in our flesh (not I, but...) what do we do with it?
Try to cast those thoughts down and cling to Jesus?
Entertain those thoughts and say not I but sin?

Some love the "loopholes" and will embrace sin, pointing fingers for personal justification.

Others will continue to seek God with their whole mind heart & soul, while fearing God.

God knows we can not be perfect in the flesh, and yet, told us to be ye perfect even as I am perfect. Why is that?
He wants us to try. And it's not easy and we will fail!
But are we trying, and not just looking for loopholes? (As humans tend to do...

Or so it seems to me.

 

[smaller]

He wants us to try. And it's not easy and we will fail!
But are we trying, and not just looking for loopholes? (As humans tend to do...

Or so it seems to me.

I might observe that the fruit God obtains from the dilemma of sin is honesty. I honestly will say that indwelling sin and evil present will not be obedient, period. Failure is guaranteed. The Laws of God were not to make anyone lawful, but to arouse, provoke and empower sin, so that we know our condition. It is a condition that God Himself set upon us in this present life.

From there, we see our factual weakness. And yes, we do contend with it. But to claim that we made our indwelling sin and evil present "obedient" to the Gospel is merely to fall into lying hypocrisy, as that never happens.

Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

We can try to whistle ourselves past the fact of evil present with us, and past the death of the flesh under the guise of freewill, but neither of these current facts have yet changed for anyone. Many believers quite falsely think that because they don't sin where everyone can see it, they are not sinners. Jesus tells us that evil comes from within. It's not a maybe. And no amount of freewill applied is going to change what indwelling sin and evil present does internally. It does what it does. Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23

Anyone who sez otherwise is just kidding themselves. In the more severe cases they are simply liars and hypocrites. I don't care to take a seat in those postures. If we desire for Jesus to HATE us, we should just be lying hypocrites because these people Jesus openly shows his HATRED of.

It's not because of freewill, but because of the obvious, which I know to be the case, internally, of what this internal badness does. My "will" has no effect on what indwelling sin and evil present does, other than to hopefully keep it in check so it doesn't rule me. But it's a short hop from thinking and doing REIGN OVER to delusions of sinlessness and no evil present, and that is the seat of lying hypocrisy. It's a very short hop. There is certainly no freedom whatsoever in those shoes. There is only false braggadocio.

And we are warned off of such postures by our Lord.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I might observe that the fruit God obtains from the dilemma of sin is honesty. I honestly will say that indwelling sin and evil present will not be obedient, period. Failure is guaranteed. The Laws of God were not to make anyone lawful, but to arouse, provoke and empower sin, so that we know our condition. It is a condition that God Himself set upon us in this present life.

From there, we see our factual weakness. And yes, we do contend with it. But to claim that we made our indwelling sin and evil present "obedient" to the Gospel is merely to fall into lying hypocrisy, as that never happens.

Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

We can try to whistle ourselves past the fact of evil present with us, and past the death of the flesh under the guise of freewill, but neither of these current facts have yet changed for anyone. Many believers quite falsely think that because they don't sin where everyone can see it, they are not sinners. Jesus tells us that evil comes from within. It's not a maybe. And no amount of freewill applied is going to change what indwelling sin and evil present does internally. It does what it does. Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23

Anyone who sez otherwise is just kidding themselves. In the more severe cases they are simply liars and hypocrites. I don't care to take a seat in those postures. If we desire for Jesus to HATE us, we should just be lying hypocrites because these people Jesus openly shows his HATRED of.

It's not because of freewill, but because of the obvious, which I know to be the case, internally, of what this internal badness does. My "will" has no effect on what indwelling sin and evil present does, other than to hopefully keep it in check so it doesn't rule me. But it's a short hop from thinking and doing REIGN OVER to delusions of sinlessness and no evil present, and that is the seat of lying hypocrisy. It's a very short hop. There is certainly no freedom whatsoever in those shoes. There is only false braggadocio.

And we are warned off of such postures by our Lord.

But neither you nor I are fully able to say who is saved and who is pretending.

 

[childeye]

First, I will define free will as the ability for a person to choose to do good or evil, regardless of the influences, for good or for evil, that may work upon them.

Nice thread. Good questions. But bad definition of free will. The spirit of free will is that a person is responsible for their own actions good or bad. The validity of that spirit cannot be substantiated upon the existence of options. Here's a question; how would a person who chose to do good, know it was their free will and not a spiritual quality endowed by their Maker? For a freewill to exist, the Maker would have to place equal parts good and evil which would make the choice random.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Nice thread. Good questions. But bad definition of free will. The spirit of free will is that a person is responsible for their own actions good or bad. The validity of that spirit cannot be substantiated upon the existence of options. Here's a question; how would a person who chose to do good, know it was their free will and not a spiritual quality endowed by their Maker? For a freewill to exist, the Maker would have to place equal parts good and evil which would make the choice random.

Random is a computer choice capable of being programmed and has nothing to do with the Human Nature. In the case of Free Will there must be a free and independent gathering of information and that is completely independent of input. There is nothing random about the choice of Good or Evil, it is a specific, informed choice!

 

[Kidron]

But it's the condition of our heart that is important. At the time that sin manifests in our flesh (not I, but...) what do we do with it?

-
You first of all "Recon yourself dead to sin" by realizing that "sin shall not have dominion over you because you are no longer under the LAW".
See, sin got it power from the law, and now we are under Grace.
So realize this.

The other way to deal with it, is not to feed your carnal nature.
If you think of the New man as a "Spiritual muscle" and the Adamic nature as a "flesh muscle", then by feeding ither you are strengthening it.....and the one that is stronger is going to dictate your behavior.
Feed the right one, as this weakens the wrong one.

 

[smaller]

But neither you nor I are fully able to say who is saved and who is pretending.

I take it that those who have asked Jesus to save them, are saved. There is no reason to see it otherwise. It's not dependent on them at that point in any case. Not looking at them but Jesus.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

And let's face the fact that a very small % of believers are all that honest about sin/evil when it comes to themselves. They don't have enough freewill to have a forthright discussion, and are apt to pretend they are something else instead.

 

[Edward]

-
You first of all "Recon yourself dead to sin" by realizing that "sin shall not have dominion over you because you are no longer under the LAW".
See, sin got it power from the law, and now we are under Grace.
So realize this.

The other way to deal with it, is not to feed your carnal nature.
If you think of the New man as a "Spiritual muscle" and the Adamic nature as a "flesh muscle", then by feeding ither you are strengthening it.....and the one that is stronger is going to dictate your behavior.
Feed the right one, as this weakens the wrong one.

I'll buy that. And it's the Word of God that is spiritual food for our spirit man.