Reasoning Together

[netchaplain]

What sense and worth could there be if one truly received salvation and then truly lost it? Can it be rightly said that God can give “eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him” (Heb 5:9), while knowing they will eventually lose it? Such a situation would have no value at any time, but only confirms a misunderstanding of God’s omniscience. After rebirth, one will never conceive the desire against what He “works” within (Phl 2:13), which is “to desire and to perform of His good pleasure.” If those who profess faith in Christ cease to outwardly manifest the Christian walk, it confirms they have yet to be reborn.

It is this very “work” that keeps one from ever desiring to return to the former state of an unregenerate—which is “irrevocable” (Rom 11:29 - NKJV). If you’re reborn God will “keep you from evil” and “keep you from falling” (2Th 3:3; Jude 1:24), otherwise none could possibly remain in the faith; which answers to why salvation is permanent, and apostates (hypocrites) eventually manifest the absence of rebirth.

No matter who you are, there will always be a certain degree of misinterpretation of Scripture (concerning spiritual growth but not how to receive salvation), as it often presents statements that require researching beyond how a passage is given. This difficulty exists to confound the hypocrite (believers never cease from seeking truth), and admonish the saved to study; and without the use of at least one acceptable Bible commentator of your choice, there will always be a weighty time-lag in your learning progress

 

[SamNI]

If those who profess faith in Christ cease to outwardly manifest the Christian walk, it confirms they have yet to be reborn.

I’m sure you realise how controversial this statement can be. It made me think of Galatians 6:1 (those caught in a sin who needed restored), and those Paul handed over “to Satan” for the “destruction of the flesh” and so that “they may learn not to blaspheme” (1st Corinthians 5:5; 1st Timothy 1:20).

And what about those who are “so easily” entangled in sin (Hebrews 12:1). Who are those who need to “lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light” and “make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts” (Romans 13:12, 14)? They are “us”. We need to encourage one another not to do these things expressly because it is possible.

As you know, the root of the problem here (and in other Scripture texts) is explained in Galatians:

“For the flesh has desires that are opposed to the Spirit, and the Spirit has desires that are opposed to the flesh, for these are in opposition to each other, so that you cannot do what you want” (Galatians 5:17).​

The crunch issue is this: we will see the works of the flesh in true believers’ lives. We see them taken in trespasses, needing their fleshly tendencies destroyed, entangled in sin, making provision for the flesh, etc. When behaving and struggling in this way over a longer period of time, do they “outwardly manifest the Christian walk”? Should we conclude that these are “yet to be reborn”?

There is another vital dimension to this, and those of us who are mature in Christ need to be careful how we expound it. Combating sin and the deeds of the flesh in our lives is not the same as practising those things. There is a crucial distinction here because “those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God” (Galatians 5:21).

There is a danger that we may mislead and dishearten those who are often struggling to overcome sin in their lives. They may begin to doubt if they ever came to Christ at all. Eventually they may wrongly decide that they have never been born again. Some people are in turmoil when they don’t need to be and we need wisdom when dealing with it.

God looks on the heart and He knows those who are His. Let’s be convinced of better things when we draw alongside those who seem to be no longer walking with Christ. If we step into their lives let’s first of all show them love, encouragement, along with caring admonishment and discipline. God will discipline those He loves. We can play a part in their restoration. If it seems they are truly practising sin, they may indeed need to fully understand they are in need of salvation.

Appearances can be deceptive. Sometimes life isn't black and white. Lapsing into disillusionment, worldliness and destructive sins isn’t necessarily falling away into eternal destruction.

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

The "Oh, they were never saved to begin with" jazz doesn't go too well with

Heb 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

but people hold OSAS even in the face of it. Amazing.

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

"OSAS vs OSNAS is no longer allowed to be discussed here in CF. Same goes with Arminianism vs Calvinism or pinning any particular religion against another that causes division among the members in what and how they believe by what or who is teaching them."

This rule used to have a sticky somewhere. I feel it was a good rule. Some of us want to be free from Calvinists, Piper Cubs and other OSASers spewing the stuff all over.

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

The sticky is there under Theology Forum.

 

[netchaplain]

The "Oh, they were never saved to begin with" jazz doesn't go too well with

Heb 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

but people hold OSAS even in the face of it. Amazing.

One can avoid using the term OSAS (which is the site rule), but discussing it as truth or error cannot be avoided, it being a prevailing issue in all Scripture.

 

[for_his_glory]

The crunch issue is this: we will see the works of the flesh in true believers’ lives. We see them taken in trespasses, needing their fleshly tendencies destroyed, entangled in sin, making provision for the flesh, etc. When behaving and struggling in this way over a longer period of time, do they “outwardly manifest the Christian walk”? Should we conclude that these are “yet to be reborn”?

If someone who calls themselves a Christian is making provision for the flesh, walking in disobedience instead of crucify the flesh daily as they are to be lead by the Holy Spirit, do you really think they are displaying the fruits of the Spirit letting the light of Christ shine through them?

2Tim 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Tim 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Tim 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Tim 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Tim 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Tim 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Tim 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
(Read the full in Colossians 3:1-17)

 

[for_his_glory]

"OSAS vs OSNAS is no longer allowed to be discussed here in CF. Same goes with Arminianism vs Calvinism or pinning any particular religion against another that causes division among the members in what and how they believe by what or who is teaching them."

This rule used to have a sticky somewhere. I feel it was a good rule. Some of us want to be free from Calvinists, Piper Cubs and other OSASers spewing the stuff all over.

This has nothing to do with OSAS vs OSNAS so there is no violation. This is about those who only give lip service to the Lord as they do not display the fruits of the Spirit or any Spiritual growth as they remain in the desires of the flesh.

 

[netchaplain]

Appearances can be deceptive. Sometimes life isn't black and white. Lapsing into disillusionment, worldliness and destructive sins isn’t necessarily falling away into eternal destruction.

Though I like part of what you've commented, I not sure of what you mean by "lapsing."

Thanks and God bless!