Refuting Losing Salvation (A)

[netchaplain]

Galatians 5:4 “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” “Whosoever” is not a confirmation but a supposition, thus it can be, it’s as if you have fallen from grace. These Galatians were attempting to be saved by the Law and Christianity. From what Paul said it can be seen that these Galatians had not fully decided to continue this error, mixing the Law with Christianity, which is impossible (Gal 5:10). It’s obvious they were more vulnerable than the other Galatians. Although they were still saved (but ignorant), it should also be realized that Christianity and the Law were new to all the Galatians, and they were also obviously susceptible to the knowledge of the Law. “Who did hinder you from obeying the truth?” The disobedience to the truth was, again, that they were trying to mix law with grace, which I believe they finally understood the impossibility of, from Paul showing them truth. “Should not obey the truth” is less convicting than “did not obey the truth.” “Should not” is not confirmative as “did not.” (NC)



Albert Barnes: Gal 5:4 “Ye are fallen from grace” - This passage does not prove that anyone who has ever been a true Christian has fallen away. The fair interpretation of the passage does not demand that. Its simple and obvious meaning is, that if a man who has been a professed Christian should be justified by his own conformity to the Law, and adopt that mode of justification, then that would amount to a rejection of the mode of salvation by Christ, and would be a renouncing of the plan of justification by grace. The two systems cannot be united. The adoption of the one is, in fact, a rejection of the other. Christ will be “a whole Savior,” or none. This passage, therefore cannot be adduced to prove that any true Christian has in fact fallen away from grace, unless it proves also that man may be justified by the deeds of the Law, contrary to the repeated declarations of Paul himself. The word “grace” here, does not mean grace in the sense of personal religion, it means the “system” of salvation by grace, in contradistinction from that by merit or by works.”

Albert Barnes: Heb 6:6 “If they shall fall away . . .” “That is, this would amount to apostasy from the religion of the Redeemer, and would be in fact a rejection of the grace of the gospel. That this had ever in fact occurred among true Christians the apostle does not affirm unless he affirmed that people can in fact be justified by the Law, since he makes the falling from grace a consequence of that. But did Paul mean to teach that? Did he mean to affirm that any man in fact had been, or could be justified by his own obedience to the Law? Let his own writings answer; see, especially, Romans 3:20. But unless he held that, then this passage does not prove that anyone who has ever been a true Christian has fallen away.

“The fair interpretation of the passage does not demand that. The simple and obvious meaning is, that if a man who has been a professed Christian should be justified by his own conformity to the Law, and adopt that mode of justification, then that would amount to a rejection of the mode of salvation by Christ, and would be a renouncing of the plan of justification by grace. The two systems cannot be united. The adoption of the one is, in fact, a rejection of the other. Christ will be “a whole Savior,” or none. This passage, therefore, cannot be adduced to prove that any true Christian has in fact fallen away from grace, unless it proves also that man may be justified by the deeds of the Law, contrary to the repeated declarations of Paul himself. The word “grace” here, does not mean grace in the sense of personal religion, it means the “system” of salvation by grace, in contradistinction from that by merit or by works.”

“It is not an affirmation that any had actually fallen away, or that in fact they would do it; but the statement is, that “on the supposition that they had fallen away,” it would be impossible to renew them again (it would require re-sacrificing the Lord Jesus, an impossibility—NC). It is the same as supposing a case which in fact might never occur: as if we should say, “had a man fallen down a precipice it would be impossible to save him,” or “had the child fallen into the stream he would certainly have been drowned.” But though this literally means, “having fallen away,” yet the sense in the connection in which it stands is not improperly expressed by our common translation. The Syriac has given a version which is remarkable, not as a correct translation, but as showing what was the prevailing belief in the time in which it was made, (probably the first or second century), in regard to the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. “For it is impossible that they who have been baptized, and who have tasted the gift which is from heaven, and have received the spirit of holiness, and have tasted the good word of God, and the power of the coming age, should again sin, so that they should be renewed again to repentance, and again crucify the Son of God and put him to ignominy.

“Here it means undoubtedly to “apostatize from” (apostates were never saved—NC) and implies an entire renunciation of Christianity, or a going back to a state of Judaism, paganism, or sin. The Greek word occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It is material to remark here that the apostle does not say that any true Christian ever had fallen away. He makes a statement of what would occur on the supposition that such a thing should happen - but a statement may be made of what would occur on the supposition that a certain thing should take place, and yet it be morally certain that the event never would happen. It would be easy to suppose what would happen if the ocean should overflow a continent, or if the sun should cease to rise, and still there be entire certainty that such an event never would occur.

 

[JLB]

Galatians 5:4 “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” “Whosoever” is not a confirmation but a supposition, thus it can be, it’s as if you have fallen from grace. These Galatians were attempting to be saved by the Law and Christianity. From what Paul said it can be seen that these Galatians had not fully decided to continue this error, mixing the Law with Christianity, which is impossible (Gal 5:10). It’s obvious they were more vulnerable than the other Galatians. Although they were still saved (but ignorant), it should also be realized that Christianity and the Law were new to all the Galatians, and they were also obviously susceptible to the knowledge of the Law. “Who did hinder you from obeying the truth?” The disobedience to the truth was, again, that they were trying to mix law with grace, which I believe they finally understood the impossibility of, from Paul showing them truth. “Should not obey the truth” is less convicting than “did not obey the truth.” “Should not” is not confirmative as “did not.” (NC)



Albert Barnes: Gal 5:4 “Ye are fallen from grace” - This passage does not prove that anyone who has ever been a true Christian has fallen away. The fair interpretation of the passage does not demand that. Its simple and obvious meaning is, that if a man who has been a professed Christian should be justified by his own conformity to the Law, and adopt that mode of justification, then that would amount to a rejection of the mode of salvation by Christ, and would be a renouncing of the plan of justification by grace. The two systems cannot be united. The adoption of the one is, in fact, a rejection of the other. Christ will be “a whole Savior,” or none. This passage, therefore cannot be adduced to prove that any true Christian has in fact fallen away from grace, unless it proves also that man may be justified by the deeds of the Law, contrary to the repeated declarations of Paul himself. The word “grace” here, does not mean grace in the sense of personal religion, it means the “system” of salvation by grace, in contradistinction from that by merit or by works.”

Albert Barnes: Heb 6:6 “If they shall fall away . . .” “That is, this would amount to apostasy from the religion of the Redeemer, and would be in fact a rejection of the grace of the gospel. That this had ever in fact occurred among true Christians the apostle does not affirm unless he affirmed that people can in fact be justified by the Law, since he makes the falling from grace a consequence of that. But did Paul mean to teach that? Did he mean to affirm that any man in fact had been, or could be justified by his own obedience to the Law? Let his own writings answer; see, especially, Romans 3:20. But unless he held that, then this passage does not prove that anyone who has ever been a true Christian has fallen away.

“The fair interpretation of the passage does not demand that. The simple and obvious meaning is, that if a man who has been a professed Christian should be justified by his own conformity to the Law, and adopt that mode of justification, then that would amount to a rejection of the mode of salvation by Christ, and would be a renouncing of the plan of justification by grace. The two systems cannot be united. The adoption of the one is, in fact, a rejection of the other. Christ will be “a whole Savior,” or none. This passage, therefore, cannot be adduced to prove that any true Christian has in fact fallen away from grace, unless it proves also that man may be justified by the deeds of the Law, contrary to the repeated declarations of Paul himself. The word “grace” here, does not mean grace in the sense of personal religion, it means the “system” of salvation by grace, in contradistinction from that by merit or by works.”

“It is not an affirmation that any had actually fallen away, or that in fact they would do it; but the statement is, that “on the supposition that they had fallen away,” it would be impossible to renew them again (it would require re-sacrificing the Lord Jesus, an impossibility—NC). It is the same as supposing a case which in fact might never occur: as if we should say, “had a man fallen down a precipice it would be impossible to save him,” or “had the child fallen into the stream he would certainly have been drowned.” But though this literally means, “having fallen away,” yet the sense in the connection in which it stands is not improperly expressed by our common translation. The Syriac has given a version which is remarkable, not as a correct translation, but as showing what was the prevailing belief in the time in which it was made, (probably the first or second century), in regard to the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. “For it is impossible that they who have been baptized, and who have tasted the gift which is from heaven, and have received the spirit of holiness, and have tasted the good word of God, and the power of the coming age, should again sin, so that they should be renewed again to repentance, and again crucify the Son of God and put him to ignominy.

“Here it means undoubtedly to “apostatize from” (apostates were never saved—NC) and implies an entire renunciation of Christianity, or a going back to a state of Judaism, paganism, or sin. The Greek word occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It is material to remark here that the apostle does not say that any true Christian ever had fallen away. He makes a statement of what would occur on the supposition that such a thing should happen - but a statement may be made of what would occur on the supposition that a certain thing should take place, and yet it be morally certain that the event never would happen. It would be easy to suppose what would happen if the ocean should overflow a continent, or if the sun should cease to rise, and still there be entire certainty that such an event never would occur.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.
Hebrews 3:12-14


Fall away; depart from Strongs G868 - aphistēmi

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
   
   1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
   
   1. to go away, to depart from anyone
   2. to desert, withdraw from one
   3. to fall away, become faithless
   4. to shun, flee from
   5. to cease to vex one
   6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
   7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

Jesus in Luke 8:13 from the parable of the Sower is dealing those who hear and receive the word of salvation with joy, but then experience persecution from Jewish brethren, because they have become followers of Christ.
The idea was for the Jews to get the new followers of Christ to renounce Him as Messiah and to turn them back to Judaism, before they matured. This of course was done under the threat of being stoned to death, if they didn't comply.

The "temptation" was to try and save their life by complying with the demands of the persecutors, in which they would lose their eternal life.

Both scriptures I posted deal with the same thing.

For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. Mark 8:35

Those who depart from Christ (desert) by renouncing Him as Lord and Messiah while being persecuted, while lose his eternal life.

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:9-13

How does one desert from the army he was never in?

 

[netchaplain]

How does one desert from the army he was never in?

Amen- How can one lose something they didn't have!

John Gill - Luke 8:13: "And these have no root; neither "in themselves," as the other evangelists say, they have no true grace in them; nor have they any root in Christ, nor in the love of God:

which for a while believe: their faith is a temporary one, like that of Simon Magus ( Act 8:18-21); which shows it is not true faith; for that is an abiding grace, Christ, who is the author, is the finisher of it, and prays for it, that it fail not. The Persic version renders it, "in the time of hearing they have faith"; and such sort of hearers there are, who, whilst they are hearing, assent to what they hear, but when they are gone, either forget it, or, falling into bad company, are prevailed upon to doubt of it, and disbelieve it. The Arabic version renders it, "they believe for a small time"; their faith do not continue long, nor their profession of it, both are soon dropped:

and in the time of temptation fall away: "or go back," as the Vulgate Latin version, they draw back unto perdition; or "forsake that," as the Arabic version reads, the word, they have heard, and received, their faith in it, and profession of it: "and soon become apostates," as the Persic version renders it. By "the time of temptation," is not meant any particular and sore temptation of Satan, but a time of affliction and persecution, as appears from the other evangelists; which is a trying time to professors of religion, and when those who have not the root of the matter in them, fall away."

 

[Fish153]

Those who have no root----the "stony ground hearers" are perfectly described (see below verse) by John: these are people who "receive the Word with joy" (The Message of the Gospel). Note---it doesn't say they received the Lord, or received salvation---no--they received the message. But they do not have any ROOT so soon fall away. They were NEVER saved to begin with--and they show it by leaving the faith. They "continue" for a time (this could be days, weeks, months or even years) but they always wind up showing who they really are. They have never been saved in the first place---so you can't say they are saved then lost. That is an heretical doctrine. They appear to be believers, but they really aren't---they are tares amongst the wheat.

"They went out from us, but they were not OF us; for if they had been OF us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." (1 John 2:19)

 

[JLB]

Amen- How can one lose something they didn't have!

John Gill - Luke 8:13: "And these have no root; neither "in themselves," as the other evangelists say, they have no true grace in them; nor have they any root in Christ, nor in the love of God:

I think you missed my point.
The word I emphasized G868 means turn away or fall away; to desert

How can a person desert an Army they were never in?

IOW’s a person must first be in the Army in order to desert.

The picture being painted in the parable of the Sower is a person defecting or deserting to join the other side while being in combat, so rather than fighting and dying they desert.

These on the “rocky soil” were being persecuted BECAUSE they were Christian’s.

Because of the word they received.

 

[netchaplain]

Those who have no root----the "stony ground hearers" are perfectly described (see below verse) by John: these are people who "receive the Word with joy" (The Message of the Gospel). Note---it doesn't say they received the Lord, or received salvation---no--they received the message. But they do not have any ROOT so soon fall away. They were NEVER saved to begin with--and they show it by leaving the faith. They "continue" for a time (this could be days, weeks, months or even years) but they always wind up showing who they really are. They have never been saved in the first place---so you can't say they are saved then lost. That is an heretical doctrine. They appear to be believers, but they really aren't---they are tares amongst the wheat.

"They went out from us, but they were not OF us; for if they had been OF us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." (1 John 2:19)

Hi F, and great Word applicable to the subject! Thanks and God bless!!

 

[netchaplain]

How can a person desert an Army they were never in?

IOW’s a person must first be in the Army in order to desert.

The picture being painted in the parable of the Sower is a person defecting or deserting to join the other side while being in combat, so rather than fighting and dying they desert.

These on the “rocky soil” were being persecuted BECAUSE they were Christian’s.

Because of the word they received.

Jesus said there are two type of branches in Him and only one's which are connected to Him will live (Jn 15:2).
“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

 

[JLB]

Jesus said there are two type of branches in Him and only one's which are connected to Him will live (Jn 15:2).
“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Actually He said… I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:12

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away

People who are in Christ are people who are saved.

 

[JLB]

Those who have no root----the "stony ground hearers" are perfectly described (see below verse) by John: these are people who "receive the Word with joy" (The Message of the Gospel).

Yes.


Received the word with joy, plainly identifies these with being saved.

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved... 1 Corinthians 15:1-2

Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-17


Received the word is clear language in the New Testament that identifies the person who received the word as being saved.

Received = Saved.

 

[Fish153]

Yes.


Received the word with joy, plainly identifies these with being saved.

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved... 1 Corinthians 15:1-2

Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-17


Received the word is clear language in the New Testament that identifies the person who received the word as being saved.

Received = Saved.

JLB-- you said: "Received the word with joy, plainly identifies these with being saved."

No---not at all. Take note--you also quoted: "Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and IN WHICH YOU STAND, by which also you are saved"
Note: "IN WHICH YOU STAND":

It is very possible to "receive" the Gospel message with joy and not be saved. Many rejoice that they are "going to Heaven" due to what they READ. Even Cults receive the message with joy. Such as the JW's who state there is a new world coming where peace dwells. THEY ARE NOT SAVED.

The important part about the Sower and the Seed to note is that the "stony ground hearers" had "NO ROOT IN THEMESELVES" and they "wither away". They have given a "mental assent" to the Gospel. They love the thought of Heaven. But they have never truly ACCEPTED JESUS AS THEIR SAVIOR. They do not KNOW the Lord.

The following verses describe what I am explaining above perfectly. Please read this carefully and consider it:

"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God"
(John 6: 65-69)

Note that the above verses call these people "disciples" who "went back and walked no more with him". But they were not TRUE BELIEVERS. They followed Jesus for what He could GIVE THEM. They saw him feed 5000, and followed Him for what they could GET OUT OF IT.

But note Peter, a TRUE BELIEVER, and what he says when Jesus asks if he would turn back also: Peter says "to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. And we BELIEVE and ARE SURE that you are the Christ, the Son of the Living God".

There is a HUGE difference between the "disciples" who turned back and what a TRUE BELIEVER, like Peter knows in their heart. One CANNOT be SAVED and then LOST---that is a false doctrine. Someone who is truly saved is SAVED FOREVER. A true believer is SEALED with the Spirit, and KEPT by the power of God.

 

[JLB]

JLB-- you said: "Received the word with joy, plainly identifies these with being saved."

No---not at all. Take note--you also quoted: "Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and IN WHICH YOU STAND, by which also you are saved"
Note: "IN WHICH YOU STAND":

Yes.

Once we receive (believe) the word and are saved, then we must stand, and continue believing until the end.

If we fall away and no longer believe then we are no longer saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

• lest they should believe and be saved.

We are saved when we believe.

Believe = saved.

Do you agree?

If you don't agree then please explain what more we need to do to be saved.

 

[Hopeful 2]

JLB-- you said: "Received the word with joy, plainly identifies these with being saved."

No---not at all. Take note--you also quoted: "Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and IN WHICH YOU STAND, by which also you are saved"
Note: "IN WHICH YOU STAND":

It is very possible to "receive" the Gospel message with joy and not be saved. Many rejoice that they are "going to Heaven" due to what they READ. Even Cults receive the message with joy. Such as the JW's who state there is a new world coming where peace dwells. THEY ARE NOT SAVED.

The important part about the Sower and the Seed to note is that the "stony ground hearers" had "NO ROOT IN THEMESELVES" and they "wither away". They have given a "mental assent" to the Gospel. They love the thought of Heaven. But they have never truly ACCEPTED JESUS AS THEIR SAVIOR. They do not KNOW the Lord.

The following verses describe what I am explaining above perfectly. Please read this carefully and consider it:

"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God"
(John 6: 65-69)

Note that the above verses call these people "disciples" who "went back and walked no more with him". But they were not TRUE BELIEVERS. They followed Jesus for what He could GIVE THEM. They saw him feed 5000, and followed Him for what they could GET OUT OF IT.

But note Peter, a TRUE BELIEVER, and what he says when Jesus asks if he would turn back also: Peter says "to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. And we BELIEVE and ARE SURE that you are the Christ, the Son of the Living God".

There is a HUGE difference between the "disciples" who turned back and what a TRUE BELIEVER, like Peter knows in their heart. One CANNOT be SAVED and then LOST---that is a false doctrine. Someone who is truly saved is SAVED FOREVER. A true believer is SEALED with the Spirit, and KEPT by the power of God.

I gotta agree with you, and those were good examples.
As salvation will only be determined on the last day's resurrection, I feel that claiming anyone is "saved" is jumping the gun.

 

[Fish153]

Yes.

Once we receive (believe) the word and are saved, then we must stand, and continue believing until the end.

If we fall away and no longer believe then we are no longer saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

• lest they should believe and be saved.

We are saved when we believe.

Believe = saved.

Do you agree?

If you don't agree then please explain what more we need to do to be saved.

JLB---

Yes if one TRULY believes they will be saved. But as I said, many give a "mental assent" to what they are hearing--or they get very emotional and "feel" great joy about the message they are hearing. But then, just like those "disciples" in John 6, once it wears off they go back to where they were before. But someone who has truly received Jesus and is born-again is like Peter. They say "where can we go?". They realize they have found the true savior---who else can they go to? They have come to TRULY believe are SURE Jesus is the only way (just as Peter said). The Lord is now holding onto them----and He isn't going to let go.

 

[JLB]

Yes if one TRULY believes they will be saved. But as I said, many give a "mental assent" to what they are hearing-

That's the problem, "as I said".

Where did Jesus say, truly believe? I don't find anywhere in the new testament where anyone added the phrase "truly believe". When you start adding man made criteria to God's word, then you end up with man's doctrine.

Jesus said these believed; they received it with joy. The joy of salvation.

The problem came afterward, when persecution came.

Do you understand why persecutions came?

• Why were these persecuted?

There is only one reason.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

 

[Fish153]

JLB----

I'm sorry but you are wrong. The words "truly believe" may not be in scripture. But look at this verse:

"Examine yourselves to see if your faith is genuine. Test yourselves. Surely you know that Jesus Christ is among you; if not, you have failed the test of genuine faith". (2 Corinthians 13:5 NLT)

Paul is clearly inferring that it is possible to think you "believe" and yet not truly be saved. GENUINE faith is TRUE BELIEF. As I stated, one can "mentally assent" to the Gospel---they can receive the MESSAGE with joy and count themselves as one who is going to Heaven, but have never TRULY believed. It is very possible.

These are not people who were once SAVED and have now become LOST. They were never SAVED to begin with---they were "stony ground hearers" who never truly received the Lord or repented. It is very possible that the "believer" sitting next to you in church is not SAVED. Paul would not ask believers to test themselves if it were NOT possible.

 

[JLB]

I'm sorry but you are wrong. The words "truly believe" may not be in scripture. But look at this verse:

The ones on the rocky soil fell away because they were persecuted.


Do you know why they were persecuted?

 

[Fish153]

The ones on the rocky soil fell away because they were persecuted.


Do you know why they were persecuted?

JLB---

You are stretching the meaning. Jesus states that the moment they face any offense due to the word they begin to wither away. They may "say" they are Christians and then be mocked for it. When they see what really being a Christian means they turn back. They were never saved and have no real love for the Lord so when they face the first pressures of being a quote "believer" they turn back. They want Heaven and rejoiced at the thought---but seeing the cost they decide it's not worth it. They were never saved.

 

[JLB]

JLB---

You are stretching the meaning. Jesus states that the moment they face any offense due to the word they begin to wither away. They may "say" they are Christians and then be mocked for it. When they see what really being a Christian means they turn back. They were never saved and have no real love for the Lord so when they face the first pressures of being a quote "believer" they turn back. They want Heaven and rejoiced at the thought---but seeing the cost they decide it's not worth it. They were never saved.

Here is Matthews account:


But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21

• For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Do you know why these were persecuted?

 

[JLB]

When they see what really being a Christian means they turn back. They were never saved and have no real love for the Lord so when they face the first pressures of being a quote "believer" they turn back. They want Heaven and rejoiced at the thought---but seeing the cost they decide it's not worth it. They were never saved.

You seem to presume to know what is in the heart of men, when only God knows the hearts.

The God who knows said they believed and received the word with joy.

Clearly and plainly they believed.

Jesus said they believed.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

So now please explain what more a person must do to be saved, except believe?

Contextually Jesus said to be saved, we must believe.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

 

[mailmandan]

Amen- How can one lose something they didn't have!

John Gill - Luke 8:13: "And these have no root; neither "in themselves," as the other evangelists say, they have no true grace in them; nor have they any root in Christ, nor in the love of God:

which for a while believe: their faith is a temporary one, like that of Simon Magus ( Act 8:18-21); which shows it is not true faith; for that is an abiding grace, Christ, who is the author, is the finisher of it, and prays for it, that it fail not. The Persic version renders it, "in the time of hearing they have faith"; and such sort of hearers there are, who, whilst they are hearing, assent to what they hear, but when they are gone, either forget it, or, falling into bad company, are prevailed upon to doubt of it, and disbelieve it. The Arabic version renders it, "they believe for a small time"; their faith do not continue long, nor their profession of it, both are soon dropped:

and in the time of temptation fall away: "or go back," as the Vulgate Latin version, they draw back unto perdition; or "forsake that," as the Arabic version reads, the word, they have heard, and received, their faith in it, and profession of it: "and soon become apostates," as the Persic version renders it. By "the time of temptation," is not meant any particular and sore temptation of Satan, but a time of affliction and persecution, as appears from the other evangelists; which is a trying time to professors of religion, and when those who have not the root of the matter in them, fall away."

Amen! Unlike saving belief, temporary, shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, withers away represent saving belief? (Matthew 13:5-6; Luke 8:6) I doesn't.

Also, the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they are not saved. So, even though this shallow ground hearer in is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? I will explain the reasons.

First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. So, the rocky soil represents a person not properly prepared in heart and the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted or established) and good soil represents a person properly prepared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with patience.

In regard to Simon Magus in Acts 8, he was said to have “believed and was baptized” at the preaching of Philip (Acts 8:13) but later, when Simon offers the apostles money to have their ability to impart the Holy Spirit (verses 18–19), he is rebuked by Peter. Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity. (verses 20-24) That is not descriptive of a salvation experience but a false conversion. Now even though we read that Simon "believed," the remainder of the verse hints at the true object of his belief: "the miracles and signs which were done." No saving belief in Christ.