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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Regaining salvation...
- Thread starter Cygnus
- Start date
turnorburn
Member
Some think that you must be born again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again...
I can only give you what the scripture says.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:19-23
This scripture shows us that through unbelief, some of them [Jews: natural branches] were cut off from the covenant they were in with God.
This scripture also warns us, [Gentiles: wild branches] that we also could be cut off, [just as they were] if we don't continue... otherwise we also could be cut off.
Likewise, if we were to lose faith, we also could be grafted back in, if we didn't continue in unbelief...
Also -
There is a difference in being backslidden and willfully renouncing Jesus Christ, to serve Allah or Buddha, or even Judaism.
JLB
Cygnus
Member
I believe you have a lot of that right...Jews being cut on and now the need for Christ sacrifice....
Paul then warns that the goodness of God (salvation). This doesn't apply to the believers but rather to the people called gentiles.....all the nations of the world. In others words, if God didn't spare the Jews...natural branches...which makes you think God will spare the gentiles? (grafted branches)
Keeping in mind a Jew can be grafted back into the vine, but only via the sacrificial blood of Christ.
If what you say is biblical then all people, natural and grafted have already lost their salvation because there are many moments of life where they are not participating in Gods goodness. Everytime you sin would be one of those moments.
One could also reason that if you are TRULY saved there will be a changing, circumcision, of the heart as well as a renewing of the mind when the gift of faith is received and these changes will always allow the TRUE believer to have faith and never lose it. Remember nothing can snatch a believer who was given to Christ by the father from His hands.
Sinthesis
Member
You can't know the answer.
Cygnus
Member
The question was kinda rhetorical....can it be more than once? Can it be many, many times? If you were to lose it, that's it?
Paul writing to the Church in Rome, is addressing believers, both Jew and Gentile.
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. Romans 11:13-18
A wild olive "grafted in" is a reference to those who believe and therefore were "grafted in".
Grafted in being a reference to be "in Christ", there being "in covenant" with Christ.
And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:23
JLB
Can't lose it. Therefore, can't "regain" it.
Yes, that is the only way to go.
The context for Paul's discussion of Jews in Romans is about their service to God by means of their election. To be "cut off" refers to their being cut off from service to Him, a most shocking idea to the Jews.
And no where in Scripture is the term "cut off" used in reference to loss of salvation.
In fact, throughout the OT, the term was used primarily for physical death for certain sins.
However, back to your initial comment about what the Scriptures say.
Rom 11:29 says that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.
Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift of God.
Therefore, eternal life is irrevocable, or, as some prefer, "not to be repented of". But that's just a very awkward way of saying irrevocable.
iow, God does not change His mind (repent) when He gives the free gift of eternal life to anyone.
Plus, there are no verses in Scripture that tells us that eternal life can be taken away for any reason.
But the thread should be interesting reading if those of the loss of salvation persuasion provide their views on HOW MANY times one can lose and regain salvation in their theology.
The next question will be this: where in the Bible do we learn how to regain it?
Sure can.
Rom 11:29 says that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.
Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift of God.
Therefore, eternal life is irrevocable, or, as some prefer, "not to be repented of". But that's just a very awkward way of saying irrevocable.
Cut off, is a reference to being cut off from the covenant with God; the context is salvation.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
Romans 11:23-27
In Christ, or being cut off from covenant with Him.
Believing is how we are grated into covenant with Him.
Unbelief shows us that we can be cut off from Him, and no longer be "sustained" by the root.
17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:17-23
We, as covenant believers, are warned of this very thing by Jesus, as we are warned that we must remain connected in Him, if we are to be saved.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
Cut of from Him, means cut off from the eternal life we have in Him.
JLB
Again, you have been caught quoting half verses, to prop up your man made doctrine.
Here is what Romans 6:23 says...
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
A person must be "in Christ Jesus" to have eternal life.
Also, this verse warns us that the wages of sin is death, and is the culmination of the context in which Paul warns the believers in Rome, that they must not become slaves again to sin, which leads to death.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:15-16
One only needs to read the context to see that we have a choice, to become a slave to God and His righteousness, in the end eternal life, or become a slave again to sin, and in the end eternal death.
21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:21-23
Exactly what Paul taught in the opening of his letter to the Romans.
6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8
...but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
JLB
Lol, as if God has nothing else to do but to keep saving you.
smaller
Member
Gods Words are ordained to life. But there is a working in the flesh of man that will twist it and turn it to say and claim otherwise.
Romans 7:
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
The above shows 2 operating principles. Gods Word unto life. And sin, twisting Gods Words, always to claim otherwise.
Romans 7:
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
The above shows 2 operating principles. Gods Word unto life. And sin, twisting Gods Words, always to claim otherwise.
Prove this from Scripture, please.
Why do you believe that all of Israel will be saved eternally? Please note the context here: the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, who will PHYSICALLY DELIVER (yes, that is the same word in the Greek as 'saved') all of Israel from the enemies that have surrounded here and intend to annihilate her.
iow, they won't get to. Because Jesus won't let them.
Exactly. The Deliverer is Jesus Christ, who returns at the end of the Tribulation when the armies of the world have surrounded Israel and are planning to wipe Israel off the earth.
No context for that assumption.
What Scripture supports this?
Prove from Scripture that this refers to the possibility of loss of salvation.
Been explained many times. To "abide" refers to having fellowship. If abiding meant to stay saved, then the verse teaches that we save ourselves by abiding.
Yes, we DO the abiding. But it is about maintaining fellowship, not salvation.
This opinion is not supported by any Scripture.
Or it would have been given.
I said this:
"Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift of God."
Sure. Exactly. And WHO places the believer IN Christ Jesus? It's sure NOT US. It's the Holy Spirit.
So says Eph 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
But, there's more. The very next verse tells us WHY (or FOR what reason we're sealed IN HIM).
v.14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
iow, our inheritance (going to heaven) has been pledged (promised), and FOR what reason? "With a VIEW to the redemption of God's own possession". And it's FOR His praise.
Also, Eph 4:30 says this: Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
It couldn't be more clear. The one who believes IS sealed with the Holy Spirit and the sealing is FOR the day of redemption.
I would love to know how the loss of salvation crowd explains AWAY the FACT that the believer's sealing is WITH A VIEW to redemption and FOR the day of redemption.
I've given verses that clearly back up what I say. Yet, those who reject eternal security do not provide any explanation of how one can lose salvation given what Paul wrote in Eph 1:13,14 and 4:30.
And 4:30 even includes the reality of grieving the Holy Spirit. Because the command "do not..." in the Greek means "stop doing it". So believers who grieve the Spirit are STILL sealed with the Holy Spirit, and FOR the day of redemption.
Eternal security is clearly taught in Scripture.
If not, please explain exactly what Eph 1:13,14 and 4:30 are teaching.
I thought your view was that one is saved by BELIEVING, not by "patient continuance in doing good". Which is it? Have you flip-flopped?
"Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift of God."
And, again, you have failed to prove that my statement is challenged in ANY WAY by not quoting the whole verse. So, can you?
Sure. Exactly. And WHO places the believer IN Christ Jesus? It's sure NOT US. It's the Holy Spirit.
So says Eph 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
But, there's more. The very next verse tells us WHY (or FOR what reason we're sealed IN HIM).
v.14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
iow, our inheritance (going to heaven) has been pledged (promised), and FOR what reason? "With a VIEW to the redemption of God's own possession". And it's FOR His praise.
Also, Eph 4:30 says this: Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
It couldn't be more clear. The one who believes IS sealed with the Holy Spirit and the sealing is FOR the day of redemption.
I would love to know how the loss of salvation crowd explains AWAY the FACT that the believer's sealing is WITH A VIEW to redemption and FOR the day of redemption.
I've given verses that clearly back up what I say. Yet, those who reject eternal security do not provide any explanation of how one can lose salvation given what Paul wrote in Eph 1:13,14 and 4:30.
And 4:30 even includes the reality of grieving the Holy Spirit. Because the command "do not..." in the Greek means "stop doing it". So believers who grieve the Spirit are STILL sealed with the Holy Spirit, and FOR the day of redemption.
Eternal security is clearly taught in Scripture.
If not, please explain exactly what Eph 1:13,14 and 4:30 are teaching.
Does this mean every sin causes a death? Or the culmination of all sins finally causes death? Please clarify.
I thought your view was that one is saved by BELIEVING, not by "patient continuance in doing good". Which is it? Have you flip-flopped?
Sin didn't twist anything.
People who live sinful lives twist God's word, in hopes of justifying their sinful lifestyle.
Sin because of the law which God set in place, the law of sin and death, only did what it was lawfully mandated to do, which is bring forth death.
God set the law of sin and death in place, just as He set the law of gravity in place.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! Romans 7:21-24
Those who walk according to the Spirit, are free from the law of sin and death.
Those who walk after the flesh, to gratify it's lustful desires, are not.
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1-2
That's why Paul rejoices in verse 25, of Romans 7 as he says... I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
Jesus is the answer, to having victory over the sin that dwells in our flesh, because by His Spirit we have been empowered to have dominion over it, by walking after the life of His Spirit within us.
Likewise, the law of gravity, doesn't choose who it affects, it is set in place to maintain order, or otherwise we would all just float off into space.
If a person steps off of a tall building, and chooses to transgress the law of gravity, then the law of gravity, which was set in place to keep order, by keeping everything from floating off, will take effect and do what it was set in place by God to do.
What you are trying to convince everyone, is that gravity is the one at fault for slamming someone to the ground.
When it is the person himself who chooses to violate the law of gravity by stepping off the edge of a tall building, or jumping out of an airplane that is flying at 10,000 feet and insisting the law of aerodynamics will prevail and keep you from reaping the consequences of violating the law of gravity.
This is basically what your whole theory is based on, that teaches it's the devil in our flesh that does the sinning and not us.
We have been given God's grace, which is the Holy Spirit; the Spirit of grace, by which we have been given all things that pertain to [eternal] life and godliness.
Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 2 Peter 1:2-3
Everything we need to live a godly life, to bear fruit unto holiness, and in the end eternal life, has been given to us by His Divine power.
It is by the Spirit we crucify the flesh and put to death the deeds of the flesh, so that we will live; have eternal life.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:16-18
JLB
I already have, you just refuse to acknowledge what the scriptures say.
Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;...
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
The branch is severed, removed, cut off from the Vine.
The Vine is Christ, who is our life. John 17:3
Being removed, severed, or cut off from Him, is to be cut off, removed, or severed from eternal life.
Now, it's up to you, to show from the scriptures where a person who is removed from being in Christ, still has eternal life.
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12
Those who have or partake of the Son, are those who continue steadfast to the end.
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14
Those who depart from the Son, along the way, are not partakers of Him.
JLB