Regaining salvation...

[smaller]

Sin didn't twist anything.

Pretty sure I referenced this, here, prior:

Romans 7:11
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Which leads to this conclusion by Paul:

Romans 7:13
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Which conclusion Paul lays upon himself in:

1 Timothy 1:
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

It is not hard to see what Paul said in Romans 7 and how he derived that statement in 1 Tim. 1:15. Sin dwelling in his own flesh and evil present with him became utterly sinful by the commandment, JUST as he says it does. Paul was not a hypocrite about these matters.

People who live sinful lives twist God's word, in hopes of justifying their sinful lifestyle.

I'm not aware of any sinless person other than God Himself in the flesh.

Jesus was, is and remains quite against the sin dwelling in the flesh of man and the evil present with(in) us all, regardless of whether we are a believer or not. The rightful condemnation of Romans 8:3 does still apply to the flesh in which dwells sin and evil present. We don't dodge that conclusion. Any of us. I do understand that the flesh will not and can not however 'accept' this conclusion because it is and remains factually pitted against the Spirit, and vice versa. Gal. 5:17.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

How many times can a christian lose then regain their salvation?

Sounds very simular to a question Peter asked Jesus. Mathew 18:21.
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

Jesus's reply is two part, and is a lesson about forgiveness, but it is also a warning about not forgiving as well. the first part of the answer I think can be related to how often God will forgive us. The second part of the answer I think directly tells how much we all owe God, as well as with it shows that by what we do, we can lose favor with God. It is a scary thought. But one that is also paired with the grace of God, continually willing to have mercy on us and forgive us. Even with the expectations, there is more hope in God then there is worry.

Jesus's answer, Mathew 18:22-35.

22Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him.25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to.33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

 

[FreeGrace]

I already have, you just refuse to acknowledge what the scriptures say.

I acknowledge all Scripture, and have explained what the verses you've quoted mean. Which is not loss of salvation. But you haven't explained what the verses I've quoted mean, if not eternal security.

Being removed, severed, or cut off from Him, is to be cut off, removed, or severed from eternal life.

This has yet to be shown from Scripture. All you've done so far is provide your own opinion, or the opinion of others. There are NO verses that teach that anyone can be cut off, removed, or severed from eternal life.

In fact, Scripture says this:
Rom 11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

And no one has shown that there are any of God's gifts that are revocable.

And Scripture says this:
Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Therefore, once again, eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable.

Now, it's up to you, to show from the scriptures where a person who is removed from being in Christ, still has eternal life.

Since Scripture NEVER even hint that a person can be removed from being in Christ, as my previous post in response to your post proved from Eph 1:13, 14 and 4:30. And I asked what those verse do teach, if not eternal security.

And my request was not even acknowledged.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12

That's correct. Those who have believed HAVE the Son. Those who have never believed, do NOT have the Son. Very clear.

Those who have or partake of the Son, are those who continue steadfast to the end.

Right. And to "partake" has nothing to do about being placed in union with Christ. It's about those who ARE in union with Christ having fellowship with Him.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

Those who depart from the Son, along the way, are not partakers of Him.JLB

IOW, they do not have fellowship with the Son. Very clear.

 

[Deborah13]

I am not an OSAS believer.

I think that we can be so self-centered that we think that we are the only ones in our personal lives that God is looking to save.
I don't believe that. We are influential in our spouse's, our children's, grandchildren's, etc. faith walk. So when we mess up God is not just looking at us but is taking into consideration these people. If we fall, we can cause them to fall into great harm as well. I believe that God can, and sometimes will, make us so miserable, or whatever He needs to do, to line us out, not just for our own sake but for the sake of others.
Did we loose our salvation during this battle of the wills? Nope.

Do we think that God sent Nathan to sinning David just for David's sake, we know better than that.

 

[Sinthesis]

Sure can.

Rom 11:29 says that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.
Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift of God.
Therefore, eternal life is irrevocable, or, as some prefer, "not to be repented of". But that's just a very awkward way of saying irrevocable.

You can assume. You can even assume correctly. But you can't know during this lifetime. You can't know for sure until your physical death. Absent a miracle you won't be able to return with the answer, and even if you did you wouldn't be able to prove anything to others.

 

[Cygnus]

Paul writing to the Church in Rome, is addressing believers, both Jew and Gentile.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. Romans 11:13-18

A wild olive "grafted in" is a reference to those who believe and therefore were "grafted in".

Grafted in being a reference to be "in Christ", there being "in covenant" with Christ.

And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:23


JLB

You can say what you want to say...but it don't preach well.

Paul is comaring the original to the grafterd....the nation of Israel to the Gentiles.

Not the nation of Isreal to an individual persons salvation. You're mixing apples and oranges all the while taking the text out of context.

 

[smaller]

You can assume. You can even assume correctly. But you can't know during this lifetime. You can't know for sure until your physical death. Absent a miracle you won't be able to return with the answer, and even if you did you wouldn't be able to prove anything to others.

By faith in Christ we understand that He has bought and paid for us and apprehended us. Romans 3:24, Phil. 3:12, 1 Cor. 1:30, Eph. 1:7 & 4:30, Heb. 9:12, etc.

Some might not have enough sight to see that far, but it remains true nevertheless for all who have called upon Him to save. Romans 10:13.

 

[Cygnus]

Can't lose it. Therefore, can't "regain" it.

That I understand....I just want to hear what kinda theology the "losers" make up.

 

[Cygnus]

Cut off, is a reference to being cut off from the covenant with God; the context is salvation.

That too won't preach well.

i think you ought to uderstand what a covenant is.

 

[Cygnus]

Sounds very simular to a question Peter asked Jesus. Mathew 18:21.
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

Jesus's reply is two part, and is a lesson about forgiveness, but it is also a warning about not forgiving as well. the first part of the answer I think can be related to how often God will forgive us. The second part of the answer I think directly tells how much we all owe God, as well as with it shows that by what we do, we can lose favor with God. It is a scary thought. But one that is also paired with the grace of God, continually willing to have mercy on us and forgive us. Even with the expectations, there is more hope in God then there is worry.

Jesus's answer, Mathew 18:22-35.

Reading your post it sounds like you are saying you can lose your salvation today, gain it back tomorrow morning...lose it by lunch time...regain it by dinner....lose it by desert....

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Sure can.

Rom 11:29 says that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.
Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift of God.
Therefore, eternal life is irrevocable, or, as some prefer, "not to be repented of". But that's just a very awkward way of saying irrevocable."

You can assume.

I didn't assume anything. I just quoted 2 verses, and I believe them.

You can even assume correctly.

Again, I didn't assume anything. I have believed what the Scriptures plainly state.

But you can't know during this lifetime.

What I can't know is what the Bible does not plainly lay out. But one thing is sure: the Bible has laid out eternal security.

You can't know for sure until your physical death.

What a sad viewpoint of life for anyone claiming to be a Christian.

Absent a miracle you won't be able to return with the answer, and even if you did you wouldn't be able to prove anything to others.

There is nothing to prove. The whole issue is to believe what the Bible promises. And the Bible promises that those who believe HAVE eternal life, WILL NOT come into condemnation, and HAVE PASSED from death to life. John 5:24

The Bible promises that those who believe ARE SEALED with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE, for the day of redemption.

Those who don't want to believe that these verses teach eternal security cannot explain what they do teach.

 

[smaller]

I am not an OSAS believer.

I think that we can be so self-centered that we think that we are the only ones in our personal lives that God is looking to save.
I don't believe that. We are influential in our spouse's, our children's, grandchildren's, etc. faith walk. So when we mess up God is not just looking at us but is taking into consideration these people. If we fall, we can cause them to fall into great harm as well. I believe that God can, and sometimes will, make us so miserable, or whatever He needs to do, to line us out, not just for our own sake but for the sake of others.
Did we loose our salvation during this battle of the wills? Nope.

Do we think that God sent Nathan to sinning David just for David's sake, we know better than that.

I think it's somewhat disingenuous to look at any believer and only see eternal salvation. That obviously can't be the case.

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

The message of the Gospel is a message of DIVISION from that other working/party. It's NOT something we can achieve of our own, of our own power. Phil. 3:21. Not everything we are currently in the flesh is getting through the Gate of Heaven and we shouldn't see ourselves in that way, currently anyway.

But it is our HOPE, which believers are technically prisoners of.

Zechariah 9:12
Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;

We should be able to perceive a bit more, in order to see our promise of division.

Paul was saved. The messenger of Satan in his flesh, er, ah, not possible.

 

[JLB]

That too won't preach well.

i think you ought to uderstand what a covenant is.

Oh don't I know it. The greasy grace sermons of today's Churches who are the product of Calvinism and hyper grace theologies that fill our semonaries today.


Big Mega Churches are built with the money, taken up in offering's by those who have itching ears, from these man made, man pleasing doctrines, that Paul warned about.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 4:1

I think you should understand what covenant is.

Marriage is probably the strongest form of Covenant, and certainly has divorce for adultery.

Since Idolatry is the true spiritual picture of this, it's not hard to understand for those who desire the truth, that God certainly does cut people off from Covenant.

Here is one example from the Lord.

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:45-51

Jesus gives us the example of one of His servants who, who was promoted to ruler over His household, but began began to eat and drink with the ungodly, and ended up sentenced to hell with the hypocrites, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift of God.
Therefore, eternal life is irrevocable,

Unfortunately for you, Romans doesn't say that, as you only quoted half the verse.

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

I highlighted in red what you left out of your quote.

The principle of being in Christ is to remain in Him, as those who are removed from Him, no longer have Him... which is obviously why you keep quoting a part of the verse.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12

Only those who are "in Christ Jesus" have eternal life.


JLB

 

[JLB]

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

Those who depart from the Son, along the way, are not partakers of Him.

IOW, they do not have fellowship with the Son. Very clear.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12

Fellowship is not mentioned.

Maybe in your religion, you don't believe in apostasy or the fact that people can renounce Christ to serve another god?

This seems to be the consistent position you take, in your post's, as you attempt to use human reasoning and opinion, to deny what the scripture's say.

Using partial scriptures out of context, and opinion is a poor way to interpret scripture and build a solid foundation of truth in one's life.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The message of the Gospel is a message of DIVISION from that other working/party. It's NOT something we can achieve of our own, of our own power.

Satan is not in our flesh.

Sin is in our flesh.

It's by the power of the Holy Spirit we overcome the desires of the flesh.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.Galatians 5:24


We have been given all things required to live a godly life, and inherit eternal life, as well as escape the corruption of the world.

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 2 Peter 1:2-4

The Holy Spirit gives up power to suppress and deny the flesh it's sinful deeds, through the life of Jesus Christ within us.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13


Have you been Baptized with the Holy Spirit?


JLB

 

[smaller]

Satan is not in our flesh.

Sin is in our flesh.

I only cite and read what's there to see. I also happen to believe it.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

IF only you had your sights turned to the 'real' culprit(s) and off believers, we'd probably see quite eye to eye on the matters.

It's by the power of the Holy Spirit we overcome the desires of the flesh.

The flesh and what is "in it" has other intents which we don't control. Romans 7:15-21, Gal. 5:17.

But unfortunately believers in general tend to exonerate the entirety of themselves. Scriptures don't give us that space. Just as I am sure of eternal security for all who have called upon Jesus to save them, I remain even more convinced that Jesus condemns sin in the flesh and evil present with all of us, which is a working of spiritual adversity and the adversary therein. Just as it was for Paul, 2 Cor. 12:7.

Scriptures do not see man as just man, an individual. Scripture sees us as we really are, inside, with evil present with us and sin dwelling therein that Paul did not describe as "himself" but "NO MORE I." It's a position that the opposition movement can't and will never accept.

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Acts 5:3
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

2 Timothy 2:26
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

You see just one party. I see 2, as scripture directs to observe.

Simple difference. I know which party is assuredly damned just as sure as I know which party is assuredly saved.

Not everyone speaking LORD LORD is able to be seen with flesh eyes, and must rather be perceived by the Spirit's disclosures and discourses.

This I do know also. That indwelling sin and evil present with us can not be obedient, ever. I expect, rather, a charade, an ACT, a hypocrisy, from these workings in the flesh of all mankind. Gal. 5:17.

Just as sure as God in Christ Loves us as believers Perfectly, He also HATES the opposition workings and the opposition party, the devil and his messengers.

Some unfortunately defer that sight of hatred where it doesn't belong and miss the intended targets. I don't blame believers for this, but that's not "all" that's actually going on beneath the surface of the flesh.

 

[JLB]

I only cite and read what's there to see. I also happen to believe it.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Yes, the person who sin's is of the devil.

Not... sin is of the devil.

Not... sin is the devil.

He who sin's is of the devil.



JLB

 

[smaller]

Yes, the person who sin's is of the devil.

Not... sin is of the devil.

Not... sin is the devil.

He who sin's is of the devil.

JLB

People are not devils. So obviously there is more than just the person involved. Just as Jesus shows us in Mark 4:15 for example or the virtual myriad of disclosures of this nature in the N.T.

But, since no one actually "sees" this happening with their flesh eyes, they don't factor this into their scriptural equations. Scripture sees beneath the flesh and finds another party, working adversity in people.

 

[JLB]

People are not devils. So obviously there is more than just the person involved. Just as Jesus shows us in Mark 4:15 for example or the virtual myriad of disclosures of this nature in the N.T.

But, since no one actually "sees" this happening with their flesh eyes, they don't factor this into their scriptural equations. Scripture sees beneath the flesh and finds another party, working adversity in people.

There is sin within the flesh involved.

Yielding to the lustful desires of this sin within our flesh, rather than using the power of the Spirit to put to death it's deeds is where the problem is.

James explains.

14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:14-15

...his own desires is the key phrase.

The lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life...

These entice our desires until when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin.

We who are Christ, are to crucify the flesh with these desires.

And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24

If we don't crucify the flesh, but rather we sow to the flesh and set our mind of the things of the flesh, then we will live to gratify and practice the works of the flesh, in which we end up doing the very thing we don't want to do.

But, if by the Spirit, we learn to put to death, these sinful desires, we will have peace and inherit eternal life, as opposed to eternal death.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:12-14

You seem to ignore these truths, in favor of justifying a lifestyle of sin.

Why?


Have you been Baptized with the Holy Spirit?



JLB