Repetition in prayer

[thessalonian]

Is there a place for repetitious prayer in Christian spirituality?

 

[Orthodoxy]

The word "vain" is the key not the word "repetition". Fact is Jesus Christ repeated prayers.

What is "vain" repetition? Luke 18

The prayer of the pharisee says something to this effect:

O' God through your Son Jesus Christ I pray to thee. I have always tried O' God to do they will and listen to thy holy voice. I believe O Lord. Being your saint O Lord I see that man over there O God, he doe not fast as I do, he does not pray as I do, he does not give as I do, he does not believe as I do. O' Lord I pray through your Son Jesus Christ that that man over there believe things as I do, that the eyes of his heart be opened to the way I see you, O God. I know your voice O'Lord thus help him to see things "my way". In Jesus name. Amen.

The prayer of the publican and the blind man is:

"God be merciful to me a sinner".

On a personal note. I "know not what we should pray for as we ought"
thus by uttering the words of saints and the words of a known "justified" man "the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" through the time tested and Jesus Christ approved "Prayer of the Heart". Jesus Christ Himself gave the "Good Housekeeping" stamp of approval on this Prayer:

"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner"

I believe this prayer is the only thing that will be uttered by a true Christian at the judgement seat of Christ. A man will be utterly without excuse in that day to which what more can a man say to His God?

Do the heterodox understand what "mercy" means? No, not really. What does the word "mercy" conjure up in the minds of the heterodox? A man cowering in a corner begging for mercy from an unmerciful "lord"? Is that the mercy of God? No.

Mercy in the scripture means the act of "pouring the oil of grace" over the head of another. Thus the "mercy" in this "Prayer of the Heart" means "God pour your grace upon me a sinner"

Better to start reciting the "Prayer of the Heart" now by repeation thus when the dreaded and glorious day of Jesus Christ arrives one has shown himself prepared.

Orthodoxy

 

[thessalonian]

38 views, only four votes? What's your opinion folks?

 

[Vic C.]

I believe Jesus gave us an outline in which we should pray in Matthew 6:9-13. There is no vain repetition in that prayer.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Who cares - the Holy Spirit makes intercession for me with groanings that cannot be uttered. So even if my prayer is a bit hazy or stuffed up or perhaps vain...praise be to God, Jesus Christ makes intercession and says what I need to say.

I have faith in him COMPLETELY in all areas of my walk. Where I fail as a human, Jesus takes up the slack and thank God for that!

 

[Petrushka]

IMHO, the very fact that Jesus included the word "vain" in his admonition connotes that there is a distinction between acceptable prayer which is repetitious and unacceptable repetitious prayer, which is vain.

I haven't been able to discern, with any certainty which is which, but I picked option 1.

 

[thessalonian]

Who cares - the Holy Spirit makes intercession for me with groanings that cannot be uttered. So even if my prayer is a bit hazy or stuffed up or perhaps vain...praise be to God, Jesus Christ makes intercession and says what I need to say.

I have faith in him COMPLETELY in all areas of my walk. Where I fail as a human, Jesus takes up the slack and thank God for that!

Who cares about misinterprutation of God's holy word? People use the verse about vain repetition as a proof text that what Catholics do as wrong, judging our hearts. Does God not say "judge not least you be judged". If repetition is okay as long as it is not vain repetition people are going to be judged and it ain't going to be the ones using it. Of course if they are right then we Catholics are pagans. But then I would think that the four living creatures in Revelations would be pagans as well because it says they say "holy, holy, holy....." CONTINUOUSLY. I happen to think truth and proper understanding of God's Holy Word is important. Your cavalier attitude is noted.

 

[stovebolts]

Often, I repeat the same words to God in Prayer. Is it rote? No, it is with passion and meaning. When our prayers become rote and uninspired, they become vain. Contrary to popular belief, you can be repetative, yet each sylabal can be spoken in a new unit of time. It is only when our words overlap the same time period, that they become rote and meaningless.

Do the heterodox understand what "mercy" means? No, not really. What does the word "mercy" conjure up in the minds of the heterodox? A man cowering in a corner begging for mercy from an unmerciful "lord"? Is that the mercy of God? No.

Mercy in the scripture means the act of "pouring the oil of grace" over the head of another. Thus the "mercy" in this "Prayer of the Heart" means "God pour your grace upon me a sinner"

It is no wonder that you post the offal that you do. Mercy, is deliverance through our gracious, loving God. Your rod and your staff comfort me, not as a threat, but as a chasten that we know what is right... That we find the hope, glory and salvation through our God.

Mercy is when we completly fall... into our lords arms......... that have been waiting all along for us to realize that one special moment. Mercy, is loving that which is unlovable. May the Lord bless each and every one of is in this manner.

 

[Orthodoxy]

IMHO, the very fact that Jesus included the word "vain" in his admonition connotes that there is a distinction between acceptable prayer which is repetitious and unacceptable repetitious prayer, which is vain.

I haven't been able to discern, with any certainty which is which, but I picked option 1.

Very good. Now which is better:

A prayer approved by Jesus Christ that justified a man.

or

One you make up with your own heart which the bible says as "for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth" and "He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool". There is none good no not one but you can with your heart trust your prayers made up in that very heart? Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

When one prays out of his own heart in vain desires and repititions is he sets up an idol in ones heart to then "worship the idol of the heart".

Unworthy Servant,

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodoxy]

Often, I repeat the same words to God in Prayer. Is it rote? No, it is with passion and meaning. When our prayers become rote and uninspired, they become vain. Contrary to popular belief, you can be repetative, yet each sylabal can be spoken in a new unit of time. It is only when our words overlap the same time period, that they become rote and meaningless.

Do the heterodox understand what "mercy" means? No, not really. What does the word "mercy" conjure up in the minds of the heterodox? A man cowering in a corner begging for mercy from an unmerciful "lord"? Is that the mercy of God? No.

Mercy in the scripture means the act of "pouring the oil of grace" over the head of another. Thus the "mercy" in this "Prayer of the Heart" means "God pour your grace upon me a sinner"

It is no wonder that you post the offal that you do. Mercy, is deliverance through our gracious, loving God. Your rod and your staff comfort me, not as a threat, but as a chasten that we know what is right... That we find the hope, glory and salvation through our God.

Mercy is when we completly fall... into our lords arms......... that have been waiting all along for us to realize that one special moment. Mercy, is loving that which is unlovable. May the Lord bless each and every one of is in this manner.

I would not expect you to agree with anything the Church believes. Of course the Church is wrong and you are right.

Orthodoxy

 

[Theophilus]

This is an interesting subject. Just this morning i asked my priest "which is better, the formal (pre-constructed)prayers of the church or 'pouring out my heart to God'?"

He answered "It is like asking me 'which is better, a hammer or a screwdriver?' It depends on the job. Formal prayers are like the three meals every one should have in a day. The personal prayers are like a good snack. Good for personal petitions or intersessions"(simply praying for others I do not mediate)

 

[Orthodoxy]

This is an interesting subject. Just this morning i asked my priest "which is better, the formal (pre-constructed)prayers of the church or 'pouring out my heart to God'?"

He answered "It is like asking me 'which is better, a hammer or a screwdriver?' It depends on the job. Formal prayers are like the three meals every one should have in a day. The personal prayers are like a good snack. Good for personal petitions or intersessions"(simply praying for others I do not mediate)

A good reply by your priest. My question is why pray at all if it not for others? Is not all prayer with an I or a Me in it a "vain" prayer?

Even the "justified" prayer of the man was vain in nature since he was seeking mercy for himself and not another. Most prayers said in the Church are "us" and "we" in nature. The Jesus prayer given by my spiritual father says "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us" meaning my family and I. I suppose any prayer that is not for others is vain.

Again "vain" is the key word not repitition.

Orthodoxy

 

[Theophilus]

My question is why pray at all if it not for others? Is not all prayer with an I or a Me in it a "vain" prayer?

Though you do bring up a good point, i do not think prayer is vain simply because it posses an "I" or "me" in it. When i sin i must ask God to forgive "me".
I do however acknowledge the different levels of prayer, and do believe that petitions for "self" is not the highest.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Who cares about misinterprutation of God's holy word? People use the verse about vain repetition as a proof text that what Catholics do as wrong, judging our hearts. Does God not say "judge not least you be judged". If repetition is okay as long as it is not vain repetition people are going to be judged and it ain't going to be the ones using it. Of course if they are right then we Catholics are pagans. But then I would think that the four living creatures in Revelations would be pagans as well because it says they say "holy, holy, holy....." CONTINUOUSLY. I happen to think truth and proper understanding of God's Holy Word is important. Your cavalier attitude is noted.

Gosh you have a real bee in your bonnet about this don't you? You keep mentioning Catholics all the time. I didn't mention catholics at all. What's you problem?

You're complicated every single issue! I can't say I blame you though, you've been taught to pick and prod everything so that's what you do. Rest in Jesus friend!!! Relax!!!!!

 

[thessalonian]

Who cares about misinterprutation of God's holy word? People use the verse about vain repetition as a proof text that what Catholics do as wrong, judging our hearts. Does God not say "judge not least you be judged". If repetition is okay as long as it is not vain repetition people are going to be judged and it ain't going to be the ones using it. Of course if they are right then we Catholics are pagans. But then I would think that the four living creatures in Revelations would be pagans as well because it says they say "holy, holy, holy....." CONTINUOUSLY. I happen to think truth and proper understanding of God's Holy Word is important. Your cavalier attitude is noted.

Gosh you have a real bee in your bonnet about this don't you? You keep mentioning Catholics all the time. I didn't mention catholics at all. What's you problem?

You're complicated every single issue! I can't say I blame you though, you've been taught to pick and prod everything so that's what you do. Rest in Jesus friend!!! Relax!!!!!

I am far more relaxed than you think. But when you say the truth about God's word doesn't really matter, that causes me pause. Escpecially when I am so offen accousted by Protestants who judge me for my "vain repetition". I could really care less from my perspective but for their and their lack of fidelity to the text I am concerned. If you don't want to debate stay off of my threads. If you post error I will counter it. It's nothing personal.

God bless

 

[Merry Menagerie]

When did I say it doesn't matter? I think you should be putting things into perspective. So far, from you, all I've seen is you picking on small points without seeing the big picture.

If your 'repetitive' prayer isn't in vain - then good for you! If you're not one of the one's that people are accusing then why are you worried about it?

If you know that your prayer isn't in vain then what does it matter what other people think if it - you know the truth. You know what your prayer is all about and that it's not in vain so don't worry yourself over it.

RELAX!!! It's ok! The world is not coming to an end just because some people have an opinion on they way you pray!

 

[thessalonian]

When did I say it doesn't matter? I think you should be putting things into perspective. So far, from you, all I've seen is you picking on small points without seeing the big picture.

If your 'repetitive' prayer isn't in vain - then good for you! If you're not one of the one's that people are accusing then why are you worried about it?

If you know that your prayer isn't in vain then what does it matter what other people think if it - you know the truth. You know what your prayer is all about and that it's not in vain so don't worry yourself over it.

RELAX!!! It's ok! The world is not coming to an end just because some people have an opinion on they way you pray!

You make me laugh. You don't even know me. I am very relaxed. This is a discussion board and I brought something up for discussion. You said who cares. Well if you don't care find a different thread. People are trying to suck people out of the Catholic Church over issues like this. I am in fact concerned about fellow Catholics. I could care less about what people think of me. But there are some who are not strong in the faith. Are you not concerned about people who are in the Christian faith but who are not strong, being pulled away by the wolves and false teachers? I find the distortions about the Catholic faith in Protestant books that are used to pull Catholics away (like this vain repetition thing) to be lies. Lies are serious.
Even if the Catholic Church were not the fullness of the truth, to lie about it's teachings and practices is bearing false witness.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

I know what I see, thessalonian, you are not resting in Jesus. You are caught up with things. You need to relax! Rest in Jesus and allow HIM to do the work and not be so concerned about things that are out of your power.

And with this 'us vs them' mentality - it's not going to get you anywhere. I am not a protestant - I am a Christian. I'm not protesting anything...I simply live the way I believe Jesus wants me to live. Your obsession over this 'protestant vs catholasism' may very well be your down fall. Your obsession should be focused on God - nothing else. But all I see from you, on these boards, is this weird obsession with religion. You see things that are not even in posts. You are that obsessed with it that you saw ridicule of your religion in my posts that wasn't even there. Your mind is that full of 'religion' that you have become paranoid.

Whether that's true or not - I don't know...but it's what I see of you on these boards. And that's why I'm telling you to relax.

 

[thessalonian]

I know what I see, thessalonian, you are not resting in Jesus. You are caught up with things. You need to relax! Rest in Jesus and allow HIM to do the work and not be so concerned about things that are out of your power.

And with this 'us vs them' mentality - it's not going to get you anywhere. I am not a protestant - I am a Christian. I'm not protesting anything...I simply live the way I believe Jesus wants me to live. Your obsession over this 'protestant vs catholasism' may very well be your down fall. Your obsession should be focused on God - nothing else. But all I see from you, on these boards, is this weird obsession with religion. You see things that are not even in posts. You are that obsessed with it that you saw ridicule of your religion in my posts that wasn't even there. Your mind is that full of 'religion' that you have become paranoid.

Whether that's true or not - I don't know...but it's what I see of you on these boards. And that's why I'm telling you to relax.

Your roots are Protestant.
Your also very funny.

If what you say is not about Catholicism, then why is it you are so obsessed with countering Catholics. Every post of yours I have seen is contentious with Catholics. Tell me, how do you feel about Klee Shey's contention that the Mormons might be Christ's sheep?

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Your roots are Protestant.

My roots are in Jesus.

Your also very funny.

I'm glad you think I'm funny ;)

If what you say is not about Catholicism, then why is it you are so obsessed with countering Catholics.

Is that what I'm doing? I thought I was countering opinions on doctrine.

Every post of yours I have seen is contentious with Catholics.

Well, that's not my fault. I just post what I believe - and if that happens to be contentious to Catholics or hindus or Muslims then so be it. Trust me, Thess, I don't sit here all day thinking 'How can I protest the catholic church today' Because believe it or not, the catholic church is not the be all and the end all to me...I know it is to you...but not to me. I say what I believe with not thought on who I'm protesting other than words on a screen.

Tell me, how do you feel about Klee Shey's contention that the Mormons might be Christ's sheep?

Well since I actually know Klee Shey in real life I happen to understand where she is coming from. She is coming from the position of not being in judgements of people's hearts. The Mormon's doctrine may be wrong but an individual mormon? Who knows!

All I know, is that I attended a church that preached false doctrine for the majority of my childhood...that's all I knew! I believed it because I was indoctrinated! I really loved God and I really believed in Jesus but I was taught false doctrine....and I wasn't aware of it.

Once I became aware I left...but while I wasn't aware I believe that my heart was in the right place and I believe that I am the Lord's sheep. I believe that I was the Lord's sheep the whole time! Even when I believed a false doctrine - I was still his sheep.

How do I know? Because he came looking for me and found me and brought me out of that 'cult' and brought be into his flock where I belong. I wonder how many 'sheep' are currently stuck in a church and being indoctrinated by false doctrine? I wonder how many who's hearts are for Christ but have been deceived? I wonder how many are not yet aware that their doctrine is not of God? Nevertheless, Christ is the good shepherd and he WILL get them out eventually...it's only a matter of when, not if.