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Returning To A 19th Century Standard Of Living? Part 2

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Part 1 to this thread contained an extensive dream interpretation that suggested we are heading for a time when many in Western society will eventually be financially "underwater," meaning the market value of their homes will decrease until they are worth less than what is owed on them. The thread also dealt with religious aspects, and how there may even be some in Christian leadership who become predatory in this scenario, and ask believers to donate property to the churches under the pretense of being able to continue living in them until the time of their deaths.

In Part 2, I will keep the religious aspects of the discussion out of it, and simply focus on the Standard of Living Decline that appears to be already underway. People in the UK are feeling it already, as the following article - sent in by a man who lived through conditions during World War II - bears out. Conditions like these are what may eventually lead to some having no choice but to borrow on their homes just to survive.

Letter: 'Standard of living lower than I had during the war'. 19th May

Letter sent in by subscriber

'Standard of living lower than I had during the war'


'Standard of living lower than I had during the war'

With pensions virtually frozen and prices rising at their fastest rate since records began I now have a standard of living lower than I had during the 1939 to 1945 war. Fifteen years of living with pensions that fall in real terms every single year leave me living in poverty which is defined as having 60 per cent of the national minimum wage.

After paying part of my rent I am left with around 30 per cent of the national minimum wage, a level which is called being destitute. To try to avoid getting into debt with rising prices I have switched off my house lights and all heating while putting on more clothes when home as necessary when sitting in a chair. I now drive my car as little as possible while at the same time changing into a higher gear as soon as possible. When shopping in the supermarkets I only buy food from reduced counters when it is almost out of date.

The downside to this avoidance is that we will slide into a severe recession followed by the biggest collapse in the value of the pound the UK has seen for many years which will push up the price of all imports to the point they become even less affordable.

DOUGLAS MILLS
Fraser Road, Poole


Part 1 to this thread:
 
Last edited:
A vision from Part 1 that prophesied about how believers should handle it when the time came. The driving point of this vision was to rely upon prayer and the Lord rather than succumbing to the temptation to descend further and further into debt.

Field Of Dreams Or Nightmares?
While praying about the future of our economy, I was given a vision of a long, lush green field. I felt that this represented a long period of economic prosperity, which has generally been the case since that time. While praying in August 1995, I saw this field in a vision again, but with much more detail. The end of the field was covered in fog. Not far into the fog there was a very steep cliff. In the middle of the cliff, there was a narrow, twisting, steep path that appeared like a descending bridge. It had the same green grass on it that the field did and went all the way to the bottom.

Those who walked into the fog almost all missed the little path and fell over the cliff. Some of these died, but nets below the cliffs caught many of them. However, these nets were not there to save the people but to trap them. Others entered the fog carefully, dropping to their knees and searching for the path, which they seemed to intuitively know was there. Most of those looking for the path were able to find it and carefully started down on their knees. A few people had parachutes, and they jumped off the cliff into the fog.

At the bottom there was a sea with four kinds of ships in the harbor: slave ships, warships, luxury liners, and hospital ships. Most of the ships were slavers. The next greatest number was warships. There were only five hospital ships, all of which were on clean, well-kept docks right in the middle of the harbor. The two luxury liners were docked at each end of the harbor. An abundance of supplies were on their docks, but both the docks and ships looked filthy and poorly maintained. No warships were docked, but all kept moving about in the harbor.

The people who fell into the nets were put on the slave ships. Most of those who made it down the steep paths headed for the hospital ships, but many did head for the luxury liners. Of those who headed for the luxury liners, some were captured and made to board a slave ship.

The luxury liners were closely guarded, and obviously under the control of the warships. The warships occasionally took people from the slave ships and luxury liners, and they were taking whoever they wanted—they could not be resisted.

Those from the hospital ships were also taking people from the other ships. However, they only took the weakest or those who were so sick or wounded and not expected to live.

The crewmen of the hospital ships were shown respect because they wore brilliant armor that seemed to confound everyone else. Those who were jumping off the cliff with the parachutes were all landing on the hospital ships or their docks.

When a slave ship would fill up it would depart, making frequent turns as if it knew where it was going. The warships were also making so many turns that it seemed impossible to tell which way they would go next. Any ship that happened to be in the way of a warship when it turned was blasted and sunk by the warship. If the warships turned toward each other, they started shooting at each other until one was sunk.

Because of the fog, many ships collided with other ships and sank. The water was filled with sharks that quickly devoured those who fell into it. The confusion, despair, and fear over the harbor were as thick as the fog. When the fog thickened, these fears would intensify. When the fog would thin a little, hope would begin to rise in the people. When the fog lifted enough so that the open sea could be seen, the ships would begin heading for it.

The hospital ships were also the only ones who seemed to be sailing as if they knew where they were going. They could sail right through the chaos in the harbor and into the open sea at will. One or two of them were constantly going out to sea, disappearing for a time, and then they would return. Then another would go and do the same.

As I followed one of these ships to the open sea in the vision, all of a sudden it was as if I was standing on the bridge of the ship. The farther out we went, the more the sky cleared. Soon it became bluer than I had ever seen it, except when flying in a high altitude jet. I was so intrigued by the sky that I had not been watching the sea. When I looked back at it, I saw that we were actually flying at a very high altitude.

I thought that we were going out into space, but soon we descended toward what appeared to be a whole new world. It was composed of islands, each with a different culture of people on it. The wounded on our hospital ship were placed on several of the different islands, so that each wounded person was placed with those from his or her own culture.

These islands were at perfect peace, and there were beautiful white bridges connecting them to one another, with a constant flow of people on the bridges. On each island vast foundations were being laid for a great city.

Even though each island was very different, and different from any place that I had ever seen, I felt immediately at home on each one. They were each like paradise, and though they seemed to be on a different world, I knew that they were somehow very close to the one I had just left.


His interpretations in the next post...
 
Interpretation and Insights
(P.S. Keep in mind this was published more than 25 years ago)

That I can now see the end of this field indicates that the end of our economic prosperity is now in sight. What I saw at the end was much more catastrophic than I had ever thought. There are some very dark times ahead, but at the same time there is a whole new world being built right in our midst that is more wonderful than we can even imagine.

To the degree that we have built our lives and faith on the economy of the world, we have built on a very shaky foundation. We know that the time will come when everything that can be shaken will be. The time that we have been given until that happens is for the purpose of preparation. Let us build our hope and trust on the kingdom that alone cannot be shaken.

Those who kept walking into the fog just as they had been walking in the open field, not discerning or not acknowledging the change, either perished or fell into slavery. Those who immediately fell to their knees found a safe way down, but it still led down. They had to stay on their knees all the way; no one could have stood up on that slope because it was too steep and narrow. Falling to our knees speaks of prayer. As soon as we see the fog, or confusion, we must pray for every step we take thereafter.

That no one ascended, but all went down to the bottom of the cliff, spoke to me that the economy of the whole world was going down. Many will survive what is coming, but not at the level they are presently. Much of our present standard of living has been built upon credit, borrowing from the future, and the future is now here. We are fast approaching the time when the bills will have to be paid. That will cause a drastic reduction of our present lifestyles.

I felt that the slave ships were banks. During the Great Depression, banks were so over extended that most of them failed. Somehow, they have now positioned themselves to not only survive another economic collapse, but will actually be in a place to enslave those who are in debt to them.

The warships were all different sizes, and I felt represented different powers. Their efforts were not coordinated, but they all seemed to be in as much confusion as everyone else, and all seemed to be at war with one another. They lived by plundering the other ships and each other. I believe that in the times ahead, small wars will be flashing up almost everywhere and without apparent reason. Anyone who gets in the way of those with some power will be in trouble.

The luxury ships were so filthy that it seemed only slightly better to be on one of them instead of a slave or warship. It was obvious that the luxury of the future will not be as we know it today. Also, the luxury ships were constantly being plundered by the warships, making them almost an intolerable place to be. Even a hint of luxury in the future may only serve to make us targets.

I knew that the hospital ships were the church. They were glistening white with red crosses on them. They were so bright and clean that they stood out dramatically in this vision. White speaks of purity, and the red crosses spoke to me that they were bearing the cross. Red is also the color of sacrifice. These ships were so beautiful that anyone would have wanted to be on them. The church will become the most desirable place in the world to be, and the church will become the pure vessel she is called to be when she takes up the cross, committing herself to the life of sacrifice. In the times ahead, the life of sacrifice and service to others will be the most desirable life in the world and will actually be a glorious place to dwell.

The people on the hospital ships each wore brilliant, silver armor. They, too, stood out dramatically whenever they appeared, and this caused everyone to show them great respect, even the warships. This spoke to me that when believers learn to wear their armor, they will command the whole world's respect and have authority because of it.

The docks of the hospital ships were also spotless and were overflowing with supplies. There was far more wealth on them than on the luxury ships, but the wealth was being used for service, not luxury. Because the individuals with the armor and the hospital ships commanded such respect, no one was trying to plunder their great stocks of supplies, even though they were obvious to everyone.

When a hospital ship pulled between two warships that were fighting, they would stop fighting and give them their wounded. It seemed that this was one of the primary purposes of these ships, to simply stop the fighting whenever they could.

In the midst of the chaos of this place, the dignity, resolve, and purpose that the Christians and their ships moved with was stunning. The greatest feeling came over me when I stood on the bridge of the ship leaving for the open sea. That feeling was freedom. As soon as we entered the open sea, we ascended into the heavenly places. Once out of the fog, we did not travel on the earth. When we came back down, it was to a seemingly new earth, even though I knew somehow that it was right in the middle of what I had left.

That I entered this extraordinary freedom on a hospital ship speaks of finding our true peace when we take up our crosses to serve others. When we do this, we will begin to dwell in the heavenly places. Then we will see the earth very differently—we will see what God is doing. I really felt that those paradise islands were already right in our midst, but we just could not see them yet.

At the very time when the world descends into a terrible chaos, which will probably begin with economic chaos, God is building bridges between people that will be the foundation of a glorious future. The end of this age is the beginning of the one over which Christ will reign. In Revelation 17:15 we are told that, “The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.” The sea often represents mass humanity in prophetic language. That the sea at the bottom of the cliff was in the most terrible chaos represents what the kingdoms of this world are headed for. The islands represent that the Lord is also laying a foundation for His kingdom right in our midst at this same time. That I knew these islands were close to the sea of confusion spoke to me that what the Lord is about to build on the earth is also very close at hand.

The bridges are right now being built between people. The bridges were for interchange, and it was obvious to me that each island was building something wonderful, as if it were the very best from their culture in order to share it with the other islands. That new foundations were being laid for cities represented a whole new beginning for the earth. What is now being built for the Lord, for the sake of His kingdom, will remain and be the foundation for the age to come.
 
The luxury ships were so filthy that it seemed only slightly better to be on one of them instead of a slave or warship. It was obvious that the luxury of the future will not be as we know it today. Also, the luxury ships were constantly being plundered by the warships, making them almost an intolerable place to be. Even a hint of luxury in the future may only serve to make us targets.

I also came across an additional prophecy that appears to be in agreement with the above. In The Coming Perfect Storm, John Paul Jackson stated that a "Robin Hood mentality" will take over, and mobs will begin taking it upon themselves to "rob from the rich in order to give to the poor." (22:07+) Jackson stated elsewhere (can't remember where atm) that they will invade rich neighborhoods, looting them and them burning everything to the ground. The only thing left standing will be the chimneys, which is entirely in line with Joyner's prophecy that the "luxury liners" will become targets for the "warships." Warships are designed to destroy.

 
Part 1 to this thread contained an extensive dream interpretation that suggested we are heading for a time when many in Western society will eventually be financially "underwater," meaning the market value of their homes will decrease until they are worth less than what is owed on them.

Since it was never stated outright, I should mention something here: The reason many will eventually owe more on their homes than what they're worth is because a housing crash is coming. When it comes to the housing market, the primary factor that drives down housing is foreclosures. A glut of foreclosures on the market force homeowners to lower their asking prices in order to compete. And what leads to foreclosures? The two most important factors are income loss and consumer debt, particularly credit card debt. Both are climbing, with the former doing so primarily because of inflation (though job loss will start to play in eventually as well), and the latter climbing because of the former.

The following video lays out why a housing crash is likely on the horizon, though few realize it yet:

 
When it comes to the housing market, the primary factor that drives down housing is foreclosures.

6:20+ on how home values are now falling quickly despite low inventory, which would normally keep them high, and also how there is a mass of pre-foreclosures that were held over from the Covid-19 foreclosure moratorium that will now be coming due this summer.

 
If there's a ray of hope in all this, it's that retail bargains are starting to emerge as a result of vast overstock and declining sales.

-
 
Only if you over extend yourself.
I filed bankruptcy,in my state in both types 7,13 you can keep your home.you must of course claim it to pay on a mortgage.but if you are clear and free they won't sell it in chapter 7 or 13
 
Only if you over extend yourself.
I filed bankruptcy, in my state in both types 7,13 you can keep your home.you must of course claim it to pay on a mortgage.but if you are clear and free they won't sell it in chapter 7 or 13

I wonder why more people don't declare than they do. Maybe the stigma associated with it?

Anyway, I think there may be a higher price involved in doing so in the future. Up until now, you could get back into the borrowing game pretty quickly. But when lending tightens in a bad economy, that may change. Borrowers may be surrendering their ability to purchase a car, home, etc for a long time to come. I have no word on that, it's just conjecture, but I suspect there comes a time when lenders will realize there's nothing to prop up the average consumer anymore.

At that point, most lending will stop to anything but safe credit risks.
 
Only if you over extend yourself.
I filed bankruptcy,in my state in both types 7,13 you can keep your home.you must of course claim it to pay on a mortgage.but if you are clear and free they won't sell it in chapter 7 or 13

I'm glad you posted this, as it has me looking into it now. The dream posted in Part 1 suggested a time when people will be having to borrow against their homes just to survive, given that the standard of living has dropped to a 19th century level and everyone is now going to the banks to borrow money, with their homes financially "underwater" as a result of it.

So the question becomes, can you get a home equity loan while in Chapter 7, or after Chapter 7 is cleared?

I found the following on how things currently stand. Apparently it puts most people in bad standing for quite a long time with the banks:

Is It Possible to Get a Home Equity Loan While in Chapter 7 Bankruptcy?

Unfortunately, you would not be able to get a home equity loan while in Chapter 7 bankruptcy for a number of reasons. Your assets are largely controlled by the bankruptcy court.

When you borrowed money to buy your home, you signed a note (which is the loan) and a mortgage (which is the lien). Chapter 7 bankruptcy wipes out the loan, but it does not wipe out the lien.

The lender can foreclose on your house if you are already behind on your payments, or if you fall behind on your payments later during bankruptcy. If you are current on your payments and can show that you are likely to be able to continue to make your payments, the lender will let you keep your home.

In Chapter 7 bankruptcy, you give up your non-exempt assets to repay as much of your debt as possible. The bankruptcy trustee assigned to your case will have complete authority over these assets. Any asset that is not exempt from their use will be sold to pay your creditors.

If you have a lot of equity in your home, unless your state exempts all your equity, the trustee will sell your home to use the equity. They will pay the lender so that the lien is removed, pay you the exempted portion of your equity, and use the rest to pay your creditors.

Even in states that completely exempt your equity in your home, any equity that is turned into cash while in bankruptcy is no longer exempt. A trustee would not allow you to access the equity by turning it into cash.


Can I Get a Home Equity Loan After a Chapter 7 Bankruptcy Discharge?

Yes, you can, but getting a home equity loan after bankruptcy will take patience.

Because a Chapter 7 bankruptcy leaves at least some of your creditors without being fully repaid, your credit will be severely impacted for a long time. The bankruptcy will stay on your credit report for 10 years. However, if you work on restoring your credit, you can get a home equity loan before then.

Conventional lenders make their own determination about when they will consider a loan application from someone who has been in bankruptcy. You might find some lenders who will consider your application after 3 years have passed.

Most lenders will require a waiting period of 5 to 6 years. The waiting period starts when your bankruptcy has been discharged.

Federal Housing Authority or FHA loans are more lenient. They will accept a lower credit score to make the loan, and a higher loan to value ratio with a weak score. You can get an FHA loan 2 years after the bankruptcy discharge.

Remember, all this assumes that you have repaired your credit and that you have enough equity in your home to qualify for an equity loan.

It goes on to say that in Chapter 13, the only way you could justify getting a home equity loan would be if you agreed to use the proceeds to pay back creditors you already owed, which would defeat the whole purpose of trying to get a home equity loan just to survive on it.
 
I'm glad you posted this, as it has me looking into it now. The dream posted in Part 1 suggested a time when people will be having to borrow against their homes just to survive, given that the standard of living has dropped to a 19th century level and everyone is now going to the banks to borrow money, with their homes financially "underwater" as a result of it.

So the question becomes, can you get a home equity loan while in Chapter 7, or after Chapter 7 is cleared?

I found the following on how things currently stand. Apparently it puts most people in bad standing for quite a long time with the banks:

Is It Possible to Get a Home Equity Loan While in Chapter 7 Bankruptcy?

Unfortunately, you would not be able to get a home equity loan while in Chapter 7 bankruptcy for a number of reasons. Your assets are largely controlled by the bankruptcy court.

When you borrowed money to buy your home, you signed a note (which is the loan) and a mortgage (which is the lien). Chapter 7 bankruptcy wipes out the loan, but it does not wipe out the lien.

The lender can foreclose on your house if you are already behind on your payments, or if you fall behind on your payments later during bankruptcy. If you are current on your payments and can show that you are likely to be able to continue to make your payments, the lender will let you keep your home.

In Chapter 7 bankruptcy, you give up your non-exempt assets to repay as much of your debt as possible. The bankruptcy trustee assigned to your case will have complete authority over these assets. Any asset that is not exempt from their use will be sold to pay your creditors.

If you have a lot of equity in your home, unless your state exempts all your equity, the trustee will sell your home to use the equity. They will pay the lender so that the lien is removed, pay you the exempted portion of your equity, and use the rest to pay your creditors.

Even in states that completely exempt your equity in your home, any equity that is turned into cash while in bankruptcy is no longer exempt. A trustee would not allow you to access the equity by turning it into cash.


Can I Get a Home Equity Loan After a Chapter 7 Bankruptcy Discharge?

Yes, you can, but getting a home equity loan after bankruptcy will take patience.

Because a Chapter 7 bankruptcy leaves at least some of your creditors without being fully repaid, your credit will be severely impacted for a long time. The bankruptcy will stay on your credit report for 10 years. However, if you work on restoring your credit, you can get a home equity loan before then.

Conventional lenders make their own determination about when they will consider a loan application from someone who has been in bankruptcy. You might find some lenders who will consider your application after 3 years have passed.

Most lenders will require a waiting period of 5 to 6 years. The waiting period starts when your bankruptcy has been discharged.

Federal Housing Authority or FHA loans are more lenient. They will accept a lower credit score to make the loan, and a higher loan to value ratio with a weak score. You can get an FHA loan 2 years after the bankruptcy discharge.

Remember, all this assumes that you have repaired your credit and that you have enough equity in your home to qualify for an equity loan.

It goes on to say that in Chapter 13, the only way you could justify getting a home equity loan would be if you agreed to use the proceeds to pay back creditors you already owed, which would defeat the whole purpose of trying to get a home equity loan just to survive on it.
Varies by state and you can borrow under court approval .imagine during this ,a hurricane comes in and wipes out my roof ,I can't borrow money to fix it ,insurance has deductibles ,a car breaks down ,you need a car,you need a septic field .


Honestly if you don't overspend ,as most do,you won't need to borrow as much .many love beyond their means,even the wealthy now.
I have shut off large home utilities for non payment .
 
Honestly if you don't overspend ,as most do,you won't need to borrow as much .many love beyond their means,even the wealthy now.

I agree with you. People in the West (especially the US) have become so used to a higher standard of living that the verse that urges believers to be content with food and clothing seems almost irrelevant, but it may not be quite as irrelevant in the future. Granted, it's a bit rough not having a home, knowing you would have a roof over your head, but during New Testament times they practiced hospitality between Spirit-filled believers, hence the encouragement to be content with only food and clothes. My wife and I have been learning to do with less, and we've been perfectly happy together. We don't make what others do, but then we don't spend anything like what others do either.

But I think godliness with contentment is a Spiritual thing. It's not something that comes very natural to the world, and those driven by the flesh.
 
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