"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:"
Who are these saints?
Who are these saints?
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Revelation 13:7a
- Thread starter Rollo Tamasi
- Start date
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Dear Brother Rollo Tamasi, I have the following notes given by Gene Hawkins.
“Revelation 13:6-7. "And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saint and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." Now these saints are those true believers on the earth at that time. Many of them will be martyred because he is making war against them and not all of them are going to be spared and saved but there are many of course that will as we're going to see, but making war with the saints is against those true believers on the earth. "To overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." And this especially speaks of those who are Christians and Gentile nations, and many of them are going to be killed and he will spread worldwide destruction and death.”
Another scripture alluding to this is Dan 7:21, I beheld, and the same horn (This is the beast, that man of sin which some call the Antichrist) made war with the saints, and prevailed against them.
Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
This will be a time during the second half of the tribulation, and when I see these that have gotten victory singing the song of Moses it makes me think they will be mostly of Israel.
Now this was also subsequent to Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
My thoughts.
.
Dear Brother Rollo Tamasi, I have the following notes given by Gene Hawkins.
“Revelation 13:6-7. "And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saint and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." Now these saints are those true believers on the earth at that time. Many of them will be martyred because he is making war against them and not all of them are going to be spared and saved but there are many of course that will as we're going to see, but making war with the saints is against those true believers on the earth. "To overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." And this especially speaks of those who are Christians and Gentile nations, and many of them are going to be killed and he will spread worldwide destruction and death.”
Another scripture alluding to this is Dan 7:21, I beheld, and the same horn (This is the beast, that man of sin which some call the Antichrist) made war with the saints, and prevailed against them.
Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
This will be a time during the second half of the tribulation, and when I see these that have gotten victory singing the song of Moses it makes me think they will be mostly of Israel.
Now this was also subsequent to Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
My thoughts.
.
My thoughts were. if one believes in pre-trib rapture, then where did these saints come from?
I can show you two portions of the church with Jesus prior to the tribulation (Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6), two more after the tribulation begins (Rev 7:14 & 7:15), and those of Rev 12:5 caught up to God and shown to us in Rev 14:1. And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion (The heavenly Jerusalem), and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. (These are those same ones sealed unto God back in Rev 7:1-6).
I will also add the fact that certain saints are warned to come out of a glorified Babylon during that time.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
This ought to bring some discussion.
.
Sinthesis
Member
Basically first century Judaism, including Christians.
Are you a preterist?
Sinthesis
Member
Partly, but only the right parts.
But every one says that, no matter what they believe, so it doesn't count.
J
jocor
Guest
They are the remnant of the woman's seed (Rev 12:17) which keep the commandments of God (Father YHWH), and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Yeshua Messiah). They were left after the resurrection of Rev.12:5 pictured by the birth of the man child (resurrected saints). They are also mentioned in 1 Thess.4:17 as those that "are alive and remain" after the resurrection of the dead. These saints will eventually die at the hands of the beast (Rev.13:7) and be resurrected and caught up into the clouds to be with their brothers and their Master.
J
jocor
Guest
I disagree. They are two different groups of 144,000; one end-time saints (Rev 7) and the other from Apostolic days (Rev 14). There are actually two groups of 144,000 totaling 288,000. They will be Yeshua's right hand men helping him to govern the Kingdom on Earth. This would fulfill the type of David's kingdom in which he had 24,000 men serving him each month (12 x 24,000 = 288,000)(1 Chr 27:1-15). This is The captains and officers of verse 1 were to serve King David in any matter that arose throughout the year. This statement is fulfilled by that in Rev.14:4, "These are they which follow the Lamb wherever he goes." King David is a type of King Yeshua, the anti-type. Just as these servants in 1 Chr.27:1 served King David in all matters of his kingdom, the 288,000 firstfruits serve King Yeshua in all matters of his kingdom. His saints will rule with a rod of iron by his side (Rev.2:26,27; 12:5). The 288,000 firstfruits will be the highest ranking officers in that kingdom government. Everyone else resurrected in the main harvest will be reigning in a position of lesser importance in the kingdom (Rev.20:4).
J
jocor
Guest
Can you see it as true based on 1 Chr 27:1-15? The two groups of 144,000 also fulfill the two wave loaves offered on Shavuot (Lev 23:17-20) as they are the firstfruits unto YHWH and the Lamb (Rev 14:4).I can truly admit that I've never heard that before.
.
Hi Brother Jocor, I do not see 2 Chron 27 as relating to those of Revelation, even when using 1 Cor 10:11. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
To begin with those of Rev 7:4 thru Rev 7:8 are sealed, they are translated in Rev 12:5, but they are shown before them (the four beasts, and the elders. Rev 14:1) that were kept from all end time tribulation, and the 144, 000 weren’t. They are indeed all Israel, and yet the bride will be of the Church (Gentile & Jews).
Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for His (Jesus’) name; will it be Bridegroom?
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Sinthesis
Member
J
jocor
Guest
I said the type is found in 1 Chr 27, not 2 Chr 27. Do you understand about types and antitypes and shadows and realities? The 288,000 fulfill both. Do you understand about Israel's literal agricultural harvest being a shadow and the reality being the resurrection or harvest of souls? That harvest (the resurrection) must occur in stages just as the literal harvest did. The firstfruits of the wheat harvest are offered in two stages (one wave loaf, then the other). After they are offered to YHWH, then the rest of the harvest can be reaped. The resurrection of all believers cannot take place until the two wave loaves (two groups of 144,000) are offered and received first.
I don't see what 1 Cor 10:11 has to do with this.
The child in Rev 12:5 is not "translated". It is resurrected out of the earth just as Yeshua was (Isa 66:7-9).
Do you mean to say, "Will it be the Bride"?Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for His (Jesus’) name; will it be Bridegroom?
Chopper
Member
This old country preacher likes to keep things simple. Pre-trib rapture; Revelation 3:10 "Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth." These are the Bride of Christ who have been extremely faithful to Christ Jesus. They are a part of the Church, not the whole. The rest of the Church will pass thru the 1st half of the Tribulation; 2Thessalonians 2:1 " Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him." The rest of the chapter identifies this as the first half. Apostasy and the coming of anti-Christ.
Some will become believers in Jesus by the Gospel cry of the 144,000 and these are the ones to be persecuted by the beast in the 2nd half called Jacobs trouble....Your folk may not believe the way I do and that's ok.
Some will become believers in Jesus by the Gospel cry of the 144,000 and these are the ones to be persecuted by the beast in the 2nd half called Jacobs trouble....Your folk may not believe the way I do and that's ok.
I believe I do, but only in the right parts.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
WHY does the rest of the church have to pass through the first half of the tribulation?This old country preacher likes to keep things simple. Pre-trib rapture; Revelation 3:10 "Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth." These are the Bride of Christ who have been extremely faithful to Christ Jesus. They are a part of the Church, not the whole. The rest of the Church will pass thru the 1st half of the Tribulation; 2Thessalonians 2:1 " Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him." The rest of the chapter identifies this as the first half. Apostasy and the coming of anti-Christ.
Some will become believers in Jesus by the Gospel cry of the 144,000 and these are the ones to be persecuted by the beast in the 2nd half called Jacobs trouble....Your folk may not believe the way I do and that's ok.
You mean there are two tiers of christians? How does God choose who will go first and who will remain through the first half? Isn't Jesus supposed to save all of us?
Wondering
I made the mistake of writing 2 Chron 27, when it was 1 Chron 27. My bad.
What has 1 Cor 10:11 to do with it? To my understanding much in every way if we’re to apply the types of the past to interpret scripture of the future, but I’m not here to argue it.
Reading 1 Chron. Chap. 27 you assume that the 24,000 of a different tribe each month is to somehow show that those of Rev Chap 7:4-8, and the man child of Rev 12:5 will total 288,000 in two separate groups. I just don’t buy it, although as I read future scripture maybe the Holy Spirit will bring further revelations of the fact to me. Thanks.
Yes I believe those of Smyrna and Philadelphia represent those who will be the bride of Christ.