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  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

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    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Revelation is a Lie?!?

Yes, Jesus will come again. Yes there is a period of the Mark of the Beast, where normal social activity is excluded. Yes, Jesus will stand outside the gates of his own church. Yes, there will be a New Heaven and a New Earth.

Actually, I believe Jesus already has come again, and is among us. The "last days" if you will, come in each generation to test us as Christians, before we are raised again. The "Mark of the Beast" occurs whenever the state takes over completely. It happened under Communism, it happened under Nazis, it is happening again (COVID masks and vaccines). However, the Revelation prophecy is actually a big hoax against Christians by Jews and Romans.
The HyperTexts John of Patmos: Errors, Contradictions and False Prophecies
Hint 1: Much of it is written more like Jewish literature. Case in point, the 30 minutes of silence? Something Jews would know about as it is when the incense is burned in the Temple. (Largely Gentile) Christians would know literally nothing of this, but any Jew would be able to explain it. Ditto for many of the strange prophetic images.
Hint 2: Jesus in Revelation (his name might as well be in scare quotes) is depicted as holding an iron rod, and called a "morning star." That's the name for Lucifer, the false light of the world. Also, the iron rod is a depiction of absolute power. Iron is forged by warlords in weapons of war and destruction. "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those in authority over them call themselves benefactors. But you shall not be like them. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who leads like the one who serves. For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines? But I am among you as one who serves."
Hint 3: The intense brutality of this 'Jesus' against sinners. Yes, the secular world does some seriously bad stuff, as consequence of their decision to be ruled by kings and not by God. Yet God allowed them to do this. Yes, there may be a breaking point. But this action and its responsibility is to struggle against the "powers and principalities" not "flesh and blood." The state of Babylon will indeed fall, as the state of Israel fell in the Old Testament. Yes, Christians will be put to persecution, time and again. But Jesus said, "And if any man hear my sayings, and keep them not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." Jesus did not condemn the sinner, he did not even condemn the Pharisee (though he gave them a hard time). In fact, this is why Jesus was betrayed by the crowd, because they expected him to be a liberator or freedom fighter, not someone to forgive others on the cross.
Hint 4: Christians are condemned for having the Mark. Yeah, it is seriously bad news to have a society based around the Mark of the Beast (I heard today of a man who was denied a heart transplant for being unvaccinated). But "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: 'For Your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.' No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." How then can a manmade device separate us? This is what really deceives the elect, that anything on this Earth can make us apart from God. But neither will I swear any loyalty to this false world and its stupid rules.
Hint 5: Likewise, Christians are condemned for unclean food, adultery, or worship of idols. No more than normal. Jesus said on two occasions that what enters a person could not corrupt, only what comes out of a person.
Hint 6.66: Galatians 1:8 - "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a curse!" Yet John (if that is John, since I read 3 John and the writing style seems different) teaches that grace is not sufficient for salvation, but avoiding a Mark, avoiding sin, and being utterly perfect during this time. But all this works theology is not in line with the Gospel. "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

So here this "Jesus" comes along, and supposedly nukes all the non-Christians, then there are supposedly 1000 years of "peace", where "Satan" will be locked up, yet somehow there is no grace during this time. No sin of any kind will be allowed, and people will try to die but cannot. I'm probably mixing up passages, but you get the idea. We should trust what we know of Jesus, and trust that Jesus does allow evil in this world, because evil is part of God's plan. One day, suffering will fall away. Not free will. A careful reading of Genesis reveals that knowledge of Good and Evil was an intentional gift, not a sin. There is no possible way that God could have forbidden in by putting it (1) dead center in the garden of Eden, (2) not making the fruit out of reach, or (3) not having anyone or anything to guard it.

It think that's everything I want to say.
 
Last edited:

Goldwing

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Goldwing
I intend to respond on one or two other things that you mentioned. I'll do that later, God willing, but as a heads up, let me ask:

Do you believe that God has no unconditional covenants with Israel? Certainly, God made some conditional covenants, no one will argue that. But there are some covenants/prophecies/blessings that are not conditional and remain intact. Understanding what they are will force people to change the way they understand the Bible. For some, it may topple their worldview.

I'm sure we both agree that God's Word, once revealed to us, is reliable. He would surely be very displeased with us if we were to think that He was not bound by His own Word. Lets's face it, if His Word is not COMPLETELY RELIABLE then it is not Truth and we need not bother seeking and studying it.

Anyways, till then...
To be clearly understood, I believe that God ended "All" covenants with the "Nation of Israel, corporately" as His trustees of the Gospel. His patience with them "corporately" ended at the the end of the Seventy Weeks of (Dan. 9:24-27) 33 A.D. They did not recognize Him as the Messiah, Lamb of God, Son of God, one of three Deities. This however, does not disqualify individuals of Jewish ancestry from a personal saving relationship with God. After 33 A.D., the stoning of Stephen, God redefined Abrahams seed, as those who would life by faith in Christ, and these believers would be the "New trustees of the Gospel." People who think that the Nation of Israel will be a big player in "end time events" are seriously misinformed, and that includes main steam Christianity. I was once of that opinion myself.
 

christian1724

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To be clearly understood, I believe that God ended "All" covenants with the "Nation of Israel, corporately" as His trustees of the Gospel. ...
"All" covenants?

Any conditional covenants between God and Israel were not broken by God, they were broken by Israel.

There are UNconditional covenants which God founds on His own Word. Only God could break such a covenant which would make His Word unreliable.

If God's covenants or His Word are unreliable then why would you trust on anything He has to say?
 

Goldwing

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Any conditional covenants between God and Israel were not broken by God, they were broken by Israel.
Yes, that is true. In this case we are talking about, has I have said, a bilateral covenant, in which case if either party fails to uphold their side of the covenant it releases the other of any obligation. In this case God from upholding His side of the Covenant. This should not in any way diminish our trust in God.

Example, perhaps you are married. If so, you and your wife entered a bilateral covenant to be faithful to each other as long as you both shall live. Suppose at some time your wife has an affaire, thereby breaks the marriage covenant. You then are released from your vows, and can legally file for divorce. Should you choose to exercise your legal right under law, does that mean you are not trustworthy?
 

christian1724

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Good! We can return now to UNconditional covenants/oaths now that we've triple established that God is not held to His Word when it is conditioned upon circumstances/actions outside of Himself,


God has made many unconditional declarations to and about Israel through His Word to Abraham and through Isaac who passed these along to Israel. Israel, in speaking to his sons, told each of the what should befall the in the last days.
Genesis 49:9 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up? 10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. 11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes: ...
Genesis 49:22 Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall: 23 The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him: :24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:) 25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb: 26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.
Far from being outcast, the Israelites (I'm not just referring to the Israelis) are seen in the final days as flourishing under the blessings of the Almighty.

Here the Word of God speaks to a woman of Canaan:
Matthew 15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. 24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
He doesn't appear to have cast them out in the least but instead appears to making it clear that He is sent directly to them.
Matthew 21:4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, 5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
He isn't fulfilling this to the 'daughter of Jerusalem', He is fulfilling this to the daughter of Zion. (see Zechariah 9:9-10)

I suspect that you are looking to the Jews thinking that they are the house of Israel.

But in fact the house of Israel (most of Israel) was scattered among the nations many centuries before Jesus first came to them, even before the Jews were taken into Babylon. When they readily accepted His Word maybe you thought they were gentiles because they weren't headquartered in Judea?

This is why I said that confusing the Jews with the house of Israel makes in virtually impossible to understand prophecy. In fact it can cause people to start making up excuses for God seemingly not keeping His Word with Israel.

When God declares something, it is forever settled in heaven. He does not go back on His Word

There is much more to talk about but this post is getting pretty long.
 

ezrider

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I agree, only Christ was found worthy to loose the seals, on the book which He[Christ] receives from the Father. Thereafter Rev. 5, the book is called, "The lambs book of Life". Lets not confuse it with the book of Dan. which
was sealed until the time of the end.

As I quoted 2 Corinthians 3:12-16, it is the vail that is set upon the hearts of men that keeps the books sealed. That vail is done away in Christ.


Another poster quoted the scriptures from Acts 2 concerning the day of Pentecost, this was that spoken of by Joel the prophet. But do you know who else spoke of it?


Isaiah 29:9-14
Stay yourselves, and wonder;
cry ye out, and cry:
they are drunken, but not with wine;
they stagger, but not with strong drink.
For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep,
and hath closed your eyes:
the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed,
which men deliver to one that is learned,
saying, Read this, I pray thee:
and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
And the book is delivered to him that is not learned,
saying, Read this, I pray thee:
and he saith, I am not learned.
Wherefore the Lord said,
Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth,
and with their lips do honour me,
but have removed their heart far from me,
and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people,
even a marvellous work and a wonder:
for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,
and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
 

christian1724

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Goldwing, I was trying to figure out who had actually written what in that post, still not sure. But anyways, was there a question in there that was intended for me?
The first three sentences of that post were mine, the rest was response from Godwing.

There was a question that he directed to both of us.
I would also like to understand you both better in regard to the "Prince" of (Dan.9:25-27) You both understand...
 

ezrider

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I think I read this on a link that I asked you to send me a while back. I won't say I agree with you on that. I have questioned that myself before for various reasons that at the time I thought were worth pursuing. I want to look at that again though to remember why I concluded that I didn't accept that.


If you were interested in discussing it, I could go find the thread and give it a bump. I wouldn't mind discussing it, in fact I would welcome it; but it's been a while since I posted it. I just prefer an honest discussion as opposed to trying to defend myself against those who's goal is to derail and simply shut it down.
 

christian1724

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If you were interested in discussing it, I could go find the thread and give it a bump. I wouldn't mind discussing it, in fact I would welcome it
Sure. You probably wont need to dig up any old posts since there will likely be some ground laying discussion develop anyway. We may find it necessary along the way to find some concepts that we hold in common.
 

Goldwing

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When God declares something, it is forever settled in heaven. He does not go back on His Word
Please consider, Gen.2: 16-17, God told Adam if he were to eat of the tree of knowledge...for "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die". They did not die that day, why? Because the plan of salvation went into effect that very day. Gen.18:26-33; Abraham convinces God several times to reduce the number of righteous individuals living in Sodom in order to spare it from desstruction.
God has made many unconditional declarations to and about Israel through His Word to Abraham
In this statement of yours, I not aware of unconditional declarations [I assume covenants] to and about Israel. I am aware of an unconditional covenant made with Abraham. That Abraham would be the father of many nations and that they would be as numerous as the stars. God will keep His unilateral covenant with Abraham despite the failure of Abrahams blood line, to obey the teaching of God. The end of the 70 wks. of Dan., was the end of God's patience with corporate Israel. However, to keep his covenant with Abraham God redefines what makes one a child of Abraham. Paul explains it very nicely, Galatians 3:29, "And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
 

JLB

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The context of the chapter concerning the mercy for sins and the salvation brought by Messiah the Prince along with verse 27 should be a best answer for that.

MessIah never made a seven year long covenant.


Messiah never “confirmed” a (pre-existing) covenant.


The Jerusalem Covenant that was made in 1992 is most likely the covenant the prince who is to come, will confirm, which will allow the Jews to build the Third Temple.






JLB
 

christian1724

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MessIah never made a seven year long covenant.
Who said that He 'made a seven year long covenant'? I don't mind discussing this with you, in fact I prayed on the day that I disagreed with your position that you and I both be of a proper/true understanding on this matter because I consider it to be important to get right. Maybe this will result in that. I'll also ask you to consider your motivation on discussing this matter with me?
 

christian1724

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In this statement of yours, I not aware of unconditional declarations [I assume covenants] to and about Israel. I am aware of an unconditional covenant made with Abraham. That Abraham would be the father of many nations and that they would be as numerous as the stars. God will keep His unilateral covenant with Abraham despite the failure of Abrahams blood line, to obey the teaching of God.
I believe that the unconditional covenant to Abram (Genesis 17) which you speak of is established through Isaac. Isaac passed this blessing along to Jacob. Jacob passed this along to Joseph and also his other children. Again, this is an unconditional covenant. It is not dependent on the children of Israel

However, to keep his covenant with Abraham God redefines what makes one a child of Abraham.
Why would He need to redefine it in order to keep it? To propose that God's Word needs redefining is a dangerous position to find yourself in. If it needed to be redefined, then it wouldn't have been a stable/reliable covenant in the first place. When you give your word/bond, I suspect you don't think it's ok to redefine the terms later. People should be able to rely on your word once you have issued it, don't you think?

I suspect that people, thinking to preserve God's reputation, have suggested this notion because they an insufficient view of Truth, maybe they are just missing some pieces of the puzzle.
 

JLB

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Who said that He 'made a seven year long covenant'? I don't mind discussing this with you, in fact I prayed on the day that I disagreed with your position that you and I both be of a proper/true understanding on this matter because I consider it to be important to get right. Maybe this will result in that. I'll also ask you to consider your motivation on discussing this matter with me?

Fair enough. Let’s discuss.


Who said that He 'made a seven year long covenant'?

If a person believes Jesus is the one that “confirmed” a covenant with many for one seven (seven years) in verse 27 then they are the ones saying it.

I don’t find in scripture where the Lord ever confirmed some
(pre-existing) covenant, or made a covenant with some people for seven years.


And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 9:26-27


This covenant that will be confirmed will ultimately involve the termination of animal sacrifices in the only place Jews will do this which is in the Temple, and on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.



JLB
 

christian1724

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Fair enough. Let’s discuss.

If a person believes Jesus is the one that “confirmed” a covenant with many for one seven (seven years) in verse 27 then they are the ones saying it.
...
.... are determined.
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week...
You again misstate what I said and what I believe. I'd say you just struck out. I know, let's pretend that the last two might have been foul tips.
What I believe is what Daniel said and what Gabriel said to Daniel.
So You need to show me where Gabriel said that he ""confirmed" a covenant".
Otherwise you need to document my saying that he ""confirmed" a covenant".
Failing either of those you need to acknowledge your error.

If we're going to discuss whether what I say or believe is right or not then we first need to agree on what it is that I am saying or believing.
 

Goldwing

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Why would He need to redefine it in order to keep it? To propose that God's Word needs redefining is a dangerous position to find yourself in. If it needed to be redefined, then it wouldn't have been a stable/reliable covenant in the first place. When you give your word/bond, I suspect you don't think it's ok to redefine the terms later. People should be able to rely on your word once you have issued it, don't you think?
You ask, why would He need to redefine it, in order to keep it? My answers is you will have to ask God why? However, Paul in, (Gal. 3:26-29) clearly indicates that the the children of Abraham who will receive what was promised Abraham, are no longer his biological descendants (because of their lack of faith) but whosoever will put their faith in Christ. Clearly God Himself redefined the heirs of Abraham.

Have you ever experienced individuals going back on their word? Was not the covenant between God, and sinful man? It is my belief that God does not deal with His creation based on His foreknowledge, but out of Love always allows us the freedom of choice.
 
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