Christian Forums

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • We stand with Ukraine. Please consider supporting Ukraine through a qualified organization.
  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Romans 3

JM

Member
From
Canada
Messages
2,818
Joined
Mar 30, 2003
To the zealous and faithfull of Jefus Chrift, my very much valued friends and brethren in the work and patience of the Gofpel.
__________________

In Genesis we read the narrative account of the fall of Adam. As we read through the Holy record, we find sinful man, not seeking God, but hiding from God. How true a statement “there is none that seeketh after God!†The very first thing that sinful man did was hide from God and since that time God has been the seeker of man, “Adam, where art thou?â€Â

____________________

A depiction of man in his natural, unregenerated state is clearly given in Romans 3:9-20 where we read: (9)What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; (10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (13) Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: (14) Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: (15) Their feet are swift to shed blood: (16) Destruction and misery are in their ways: (17) And the way of peace have they not known: (18) There is no fear of God before their eyes. (19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. (20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

There are 10 quick facts to highlight about man from Romans 3:

v.9 all are equal in sin
v.10 no one is righteous
v.11 no one understands or seeks God
v.12 all have abandon God’s way
v.13 moral stench
v.14 internal decay
v.15 impulsive
v.16 full of violence [Gen. 6:11]
v.17 violence is our nature, not peace
v.18 the reason for all of the above problems, “there is no fear of God before their eyesâ€Â

In verses 9-12 we see a universal unrighteousness “they are all under sin,†“there is none righteous,†“there is none that seeketh,†and “they are all gone out the way.†One of the worst exegetical errors I’ve ever read, which finds its roots in self-righteousness, is to deny the plain meaning of Romans 3 by interjecting a division into the chapter between the Jew and Gentile. Paul is attempting to explain that we are all in the same boat, Jew and Gentile, we are all sinners. To object we must conclude the Jews and the Jews only fit this description. To add injury to insult we are instructed to understand this passage as it was originally quoted in the Old Testament text. Before you start looking up these passages we have a few problems.

First, revelation is progressive, which means we are given more prophetic knowledge and understanding in the New Testament then the Old. We find types and shadows in the Old Testament, with explanation and fulfillment in the New.

Second, just because the Old Testament is quoted doesn’t necessary mean that context of the quote remains the same. A good example is found in Acts 15:16 where the original context was Israel [Amos 9:11] but is now being applied to the Christ.

Those who object to a plain reading of Romans, as it applies to all man, are using a literalistic theological grid to support there presuppositions instead of a literal, historical and grammatical method interpretation. For instance, Psalm 14 is quoted by Paul in Romans 3, but the literalistic grid ignores “The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.†They understand “children of men†as children of Israel only. This is foolish and unstable reasoning especially in light of Paul’s further explanation of the text with “for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin…â€Â

No fancy footwork, no twisting of scripture, no false dichotomy, no self-righteous interjection, we are all in the same boat. It only shows a lack of consideration of the Bible as a whole to deny this. [see also Psa. 14:1-3; Psa. 5:9; Isa. 59:7-8]

The context has been established but is it consistent with the rest of what the apostle Paul has written on the subject? Absolutely!

Romans 8:5-8 KJV For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. (6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Showing the internal consistency of the Holy Spirit we find in this section two groups of people…those according to the flesh and those according to the Spirit. There is no third option, no neutral group, no middle ground. This cannot be two groups of Christians because the “carnal mind is death†and “enmity against God.â€Â

We now need to consider the rest of the scripture [as I posted before].

The heart of fallen man as a result of the fall:

Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Comment: This point is important for those who believe man desires to be saved, they don’t. Men are slaves to sin and love to sin, they harden their hearts to the Gospel offer for the reason stated above.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: [The fallen mind of man is hostile toward God] for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Comment: Fallen man cannot discern spiritual things, this point is made above.

Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: [And what is the reason for their blindness? Vanity of their mind, the understanding was darkened.] 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

Ephesians 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Before God enables fallen man to respond, we belong to the Devil:

John 8:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Rom. 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

2 Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

If man is left dead in sin, they are unable to repent:

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

Comments: If we have the ability to see the Spiritual offer of the Gospel as fallen in sin, it is impossible to bring the clean spirit out of the unclean. Our nature is dead in and cannot respond to the Gospel offer, it is by the convicting power of the Holy Spirit that man is brought to repentance.

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Comment: Evil man cannot change on their own.

Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Matthew 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

John 6:44 [This is a classic passage demonstrating importance of God the Father drawing the saints to Christ.] NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, EXCEPT THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME DRAW HIM: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Comments: Those and only those who are called will be raised up, not all mankind is drawn or all mankind would be raised up as the passage reads. We also find the teaching of eternal security for the true believer, being raised up is a fact. Man’s inability to choice the good, the spiritual is because of our nature. God the Father must call them.

John 6: 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. [Notice, ‘except.’ One cannot even see the Kingdom without the new birth.]

As you can see the Bible teaches people are by nature, not inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength to fulfill what God requires. We do see in Scripture how mankind is inclined to serve their own interests and to reject God, but this does not mean people are as bad as they could possibly be, it means that even the good we do usually has a false motive. We shouldn’t view this Biblical teaching to be fatalism or cynicism, but true optimism because God’s love will bring about the ulimate good that He intends for mankind and His creation.
I’ll leave you with this quote from Romans, “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.â€Â


~JM~
 
U

unred typo

Guest
This looks fun. Alas, I must be about my neighbor's business, instead of my heavenly Father's. Catch you tomorrow, hopefully, ~JM~. :wink:
 
U

unred typo

Guest
~JM~ said:
To the zealous and faithfull of Jefus Chrift, my very much valued friends and brethren in the work and patience of the Gofpel.

I’m not fure if that referf to me or not but I know ~JM~ all wayf wellcomef my comments.:wink:


~JM~ said:
Those who object to a plain reading of Romans, as it applies to all man, are using a literalistic theological grid to support there presuppositions instead of a literal, historical and grammatical method interpretation. For instance, Psalm 14 is quoted by Paul in Romans 3, but the literalistic grid ignores “The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.†They understand “children of men†as children of Israel only. This is foolish and unstable reasoning especially in light of Paul’s further explanation of the text with “for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin…â€Â

No fancy footwork, no twisting of scripture, no false dichotomy, no self-righteous interjection, we are all in the same boat. It only shows a lack of consideration of the Bible as a whole to deny this. [see also Psa. 14:1-3; Psa. 5:9; Isa. 59:7-8]

I don’t object to the plain reading of Romans. What I’m seeing as a problem is your application to ALL mankind. Psalm 14:1-5 begins by telling us who is being featured in this psalm with the very first verse: The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is not one who does good. Fools are atheists. Fools are called the ‘children of men’ instead of the ‘children of God.’ Even Adam, the fallen head of the human race, is called a son of God. ( Luke 3:38 )

Perhaps you, with some sense of false humility, would like to be numbered with the fools of this world, but don’t include me in your all inclusive dogmatically conclusive pig pile.


~JM~ said:
Romans 8:5-8 KJV For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. (6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Showing the internal consistency of the Holy Spirit we find in this section two groups of people…those according to the flesh and those according to the Spirit. There is no third option, no neutral group, no middle ground. This cannot be two groups of Christians because the “carnal mind is death†and “enmity against God.â€Â

You have two distinct groups there, ~JM~, but you have incorrectly labeled them. They are not “those according to the flesh and those according to the Spiritâ€Â, they are those who live according to the flesh and those who live according to the Spirit. Those who are carnally minded are controlled by the things of the flesh and give themselves over to satisfying the lusts of the flesh. They are not Jews or Gentiles, or Christians and Jews, or ‘born again’ ones or unbelievers, but those who live by the teaching of Christ and the leading of the Holy Spirit, and those who live only for the satisfaction of their own egos, creature comforts and carnal pleasures. While it is true that there is no third option, none of us walk perfectly on one side or the other. God will judge us all according to our works of faith and our works of the flesh.

~JM~ said:
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Comment: This point is important for those who believe man desires to be saved, they don’t. Men are slaves to sin and love to sin, they harden their hearts to the Gospel offer for the reason stated above.

LOL. You just can’t seem to keep your verses in context. Read a couple more verses with your last example: John 3:19-21 20For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Clearly, so far, we have together proved that those who are atheists, who do evil, who walk after the flesh and not the Spirit, are very despicable, and have enmity ( hostile hatred ) against God, while those who follow Christ and do good, are seeking God and love the light. I love working with you, ~JM~. You have a way of bringing out the truth, whether you mean to or not.


~JM~ said:
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: [The fallen mind of man is hostile toward God] for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Comment: Fallen man cannot discern spiritual things, this point is made above.

Since we just cleared that up that those who live in sinful lusting really don’t get it when it comes to obeying Christ and living according to spiritual things that please God. It is some kind of mystery to them that can’t be explained fully and sounds like foolishness to them.



~JM~ said:
If man is left dead in sin, they are unable to repent:
Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
Comments: If we have the ability to see the Spiritual offer of the Gospel as fallen in sin, it is impossible to bring the clean spirit out of the unclean. Our nature is dead in and cannot respond to the Gospel offer, it is by the convicting power of the Holy Spirit that man is brought to repentance.


A man is dead in sin the same way Abimelech was declared a dead man in Genesis 20:3. It’s a figure of speech! You can’t make a doctrine out of it! Look at 2 Corinthians 7:3 where Paul says “…you are in our hearts to die and live with you….â€Â. Paul and Timothy really aren’t going to be unable to respond in any way to the Corinthians. Paul said he died daily. He said we were dead unto the law. He was afraid that the sinner in 2 Corinthians 2:7 might be swallowed up with sorrow. You might say Paul was given to dramatics in his writing. If being dead in trespasses and sins means we cannot respond, how do you explain the following verses?
Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
(right, how do we keep sinning when we are unable to respond to sin?)

Romans 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.
(sin was dead…unable to respond?)

Romans 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
( Is your body unable to respond because of sin when Christ is in you?)

Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
(When you are dead to the law and dead with Christ, are you unable
to respond to the law or the world? You wish…)

Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
(Explain death in the unresponsive mode here….)


Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

(OK, here are some ones I can relate to. Faith without works is
unable to respond or do anything to please God. Explain that away. Gotcha.) :wink:


~JM~ said:
John 6:44 [This is a classic passage demonstrating importance of God the Father drawing the saints to Christ.] NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, EXCEPT THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME DRAW HIM: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Comments: Those and only those who are called will be raised up, not all mankind is drawn or all mankind would be raised up as the passage reads. We also find the teaching of eternal security for the true believer, being raised up is a fact. Man’s inability to choice the good, the spiritual is because of our nature. God the Father must call them.

Jesus said if he was lifted up, he would draw all men unto himself.


~JM~ said:
As you can see the Bible teaches people are by nature, not inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength to fulfill what God requires. We do see in Scripture how mankind is inclined to serve their own interests and to reject God, but this does not mean people are as bad as they could possibly be, it means that even the good we do usually has a false motive. We shouldn’t view this Biblical teaching to be fatalism or cynicism, but true optimism because God’s love will bring about the ultimate good that He intends for mankind and His creation.
I’ll leave you with this quote from Romans, “And we know that all thing work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.â€Â
~JM~

As you must admit, those passages can best be explained in the rather ordinary way they were given. Man is dead in sins but fully able to repent, confess and obey God and in so doing, become a spiritual child of God. :fadein:
 

Vic C.

Member
From
Central NJ
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
18,230
Joined
Mar 16, 2003
unred typo said:
~JM~ wrote:
To the zealous and faithfull of Jefus Chrift, my very much valued friends and brethren in the work and patience of the Gofpel.


I’m not fure if that referf to me or not but I know ~JM~ all wayf wellcomef my comments.
You're reading it too slow. Try Ben's speed reading trick. I'm sure it will enhance your understanding of the quote. :-D

Not meant to be against you, Jason.
 
From
Florida
Messages
1,937
Joined
Jul 20, 2006
Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

IMHO

It is given to him of the Father when I, the vessel of the Holy Spirit, (or another vessel of the Holy Spirit) request the salvation of the man in question. We have not because we ask not.
 

mutzrein

Member
From
Auckland NZ
Messages
2,734
Joined
Jan 24, 2006
Gabbylittleangel said:
Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

IMHO

It is given to him of the Father when I, the vessel of the Holy Spirit, (or another vessel of the Holy Spirit) request the salvation of the man in question. We have not because we ask not.

Gabby. What is your scriptural support for this notion - that we can request of God, the salvation of another?
 
From
Florida
Messages
1,937
Joined
Jul 20, 2006
mutzrein said:
Gabby. What is your scriptural support for this notion - that we can request of God, the salvation of another?

Jesus Himself prayed for you...

John 17:20 ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Paul's prayer for Israel is that they might be saved.
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Here in 1 Timothy, Paul request prayers for all men, (especially those in leadership) because it is good and acceptable to God who wants all to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth:

1Ti 2:1 ¶ I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


In fact, pretty much any Scripture that says that we can pray and that God answers prayer could cover it.

Mutz, I certainly hope your question was simply pointing out the way my post was incomplete, :wink: and that you are not going to tell me that you have never prayed for someone else to be saved!

Does praying for someone else to get saved guarantee their salvation? No. In fact, it may be that the Lord will tell you to move on. The devil would like nothing more than to have you trying to reap a harvest from weeds.

But I have no doubt that once you begin to pray for a specific person, that they are going to see Jesus everywhere they turn. That they are going to come under a conviction of sin. When you begin to pray for a specific person from a sincere heart, God begins to reveal things to you. The more willing you are to be part of the answer, the more God can use you. You may find yourself starting out to pray for someone to be saved, and find that God wants to use your prayers as a hedge to keep this evil person from further corruption.
 

mutzrein

Member
From
Auckland NZ
Messages
2,734
Joined
Jan 24, 2006
Gabbylittleangel said:
Mutz, I certainly hope your question was simply pointing out the way my post was incomplete, :wink: and that you are not going to tell me that you have never prayed for someone else to be saved!

Yes - as regards salvation, I have in the past prayed for others. But in all honesty I cannot do this any more. Of course I pray - but I don't see these prayers that you have shown as prayers for the salvation of the lost. I see some as prayer for those who are already God's children and some as prayer for those who have (worldly) authority in order that God's children may be able to accomplish what is acceptable in God's sight.

You see I believe in sowing the seed that God has given me - even in watering the seed that someone else has sown, but as for causing the ground to be receptive to the seed - I see this as God's doing. I pray for those who are growing in order that their fruit may multiply and not diminish. But I cannot pray for a dead seed that will never bear fruit.
 

Veritas

Member
From
Montana
Messages
1,169
Joined
Nov 22, 2003
I do! I pray for others to be saved! I can't really help it.

God could do everything on His own couldn't He? But He still wants us to communicate with Him. Even if we are communicating badly its better than none at all right?
 
From
Florida
Messages
1,937
Joined
Jul 20, 2006
mutzrein said:
But I cannot pray for a dead seed that will never bear fruit.

Ahh, here is where we differ! I believe that it is prayer makes the difference in how well seed produces.

The Word speaks of plowing up hard ground. God gives seed to the sower. The seed is good. It is the ground that needs the attention.
 

mutzrein

Member
From
Auckland NZ
Messages
2,734
Joined
Jan 24, 2006
Gabbylittleangel said:
Ahh, here is where we differ! I believe that it is prayer makes the difference in how well seed produces.

The Word speaks of plowing up hard ground. God gives seed to the sower. The seed is good. It is the ground that needs the attention.

Yes I agree Gabby :) we do differ somewhat.

A couple of points I would make are this. Yes the seed is good. The seed of course is the word of God and it wasn't my intention to imply the word of God is dead. Rather that the end result of the word of God being preached to those who are perishing is foolishness. It achieves nothing.

So, since we have been given precious seed. What do we do with it? Do we cast pearls before swine? Do we scatter it everywhere and pray that God will give it increase even if we cannot discern that it will never bring forth fruit? :-?

But I must say, your comment on ploughing up hard ground is interesting. Can you please point me to the scripture you refer to. I'd be interested to see what the context is.

Blessings
Ed
 
From
Florida
Messages
1,937
Joined
Jul 20, 2006
mutzrein said:
Yes I agree Gabby :) ....
So, since we have been given precious seed. What do we do with it? Do we cast pearls before swine? Do we scatter it everywhere and pray that God will give it increase even if we cannot discern that it will never bring forth fruit? :-? ....

Hence the need for prayer....

Mutz,
Do you believe in the great commission? Do you go about it indiscriminately? Simply asking God to use you to fulfill His commandment is a prayer for others to be saved. :roll:

How is praying for a lost person to be saved equated with casting pearls before swine? I can not imagine someone who has trusted their soul to the Lord and does not pray for others to be saved. It does not add up. Reaching the lost for Jesus Christ is what the gospel is all about. How could you possibly claim that you know the key to eternal life, claim to believe that the lost face eternal judgment, and then think that you would be doing some disservice to the Lord by praying for someone to be saved?
:smt017
 
From
Florida
Messages
1,937
Joined
Jul 20, 2006
mutzrein said:
...But I must say, your comment on ploughing up hard ground is interesting. Can you please point me to the scripture you refer to. I'd be interested to see what the context is.

Blessings
Ed

Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and [there was] not a man to till the ground.


Nah, wait, that is too far back. :tongue How about this one?


Hsa 10:12 Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for [it is] time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.

Isa 28:24 Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?
Isa 28:25 When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place?
Isa 28:26 For his God doth instruct him to discretion, [and] doth teach him.


1Cr 9:10 Or saith he [it] altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, [this] is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Any good book on gardening can tell you the purpose and value of tilling the ground.
 
From
Florida
Messages
1,937
Joined
Jul 20, 2006
Mutz?

I am still waiting to find out why you don't think Christians should pray for lost people to be saved. The more I ponder this, the more it bothers me. :crying:
 

mutzrein

Member
From
Auckland NZ
Messages
2,734
Joined
Jan 24, 2006
Gabbylittleangel said:
Mutz?

I am still waiting to find out why you don't think Christians should pray for lost people to be saved. The more I ponder this, the more it bothers me. :crying:

Hi Gabby. I guess I'm waiting to be shown scripture that shows that we should pray for the salvation of the lost. Nothing I have seen thus far, indicates to me that we should.

On the contrary even when Jesus prayed he said, "I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours."
 
From
Arizona
Christian
Yes
Messages
7,793
Joined
Aug 10, 2006
mutzrein said:
Hi Gabby. I guess I'm waiting to be shown scripture that shows that we should pray for the salvation of the lost. Nothing I have seen thus far, indicates to me that we should.

On the contrary even when Jesus prayed he said, "I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours."


Well, the thing is that we don't know who the lost ARE... People convert, and we don't know if person "X" is going to be one of those who comes to Christ - nor do we know how our prayers will effect this process. Perhaps Jesus was refering to those who would not convert, who were obstinate in the face of the evidence - and of course, He knew who were lost, as He says in John 3.

Regards
 
F

Fnerb

Guest
mutzrein said:
Hi Gabby. I guess I'm waiting to be shown scripture that shows that we should pray for the salvation of the lost. Nothing I have seen thus far, indicates to me that we should.

On the contrary even when Jesus prayed he said, "I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours."

I guess the thought of not praying for others is just completely illogical to me.

Jesus said to "go and make disciples of all nations..." We told to, "ask and it will be given, seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened...".

I have a co-worker who has seemed to completely and openly turned from God. When he speaks about "Heaven being too lonely" I'll say, "You don't mean that." "Sure I do." he replies. I pray often that the Lord soften his heart. Obviously the Lord's will shall be done, but that doesn't negate prayer. I fail to see how the above command to "ask...seek...knock" applies any less to a fellow humans soul than it does a sickness of some sort we are seeking a cure for.
 
From
Florida
Messages
1,937
Joined
Jul 20, 2006
mutzrein said:
Hi Gabby. I guess I'm waiting to be shown scripture that shows that we should pray for the salvation of the lost. Nothing I have seen thus far, indicates to me that we should.
Any Scripture on prayer. Any thing that says that it is God's will for people to be saved. Put the two together.

mutzrein said:
On the contrary even when Jesus prayed he said, "I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours."

Ok. Don't pray for the world. but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

The simple fact that you don't know who is and is not His, says to me that we should pray and ask Him to point them out. Then pray and ask Him how we can reach them. Then pray and ask Him what to say, how to say it, when to say it, what not to say, what not to do. Ask Him if He would be pleased if your nextdoor neighbor were to come to the Cross, then ask Him if He would be pleased if you were the one to lead your neighbor to Him. Ask Him to remove obsticles that would hinder someone to being saved. Ask Him for deliverance for the person from whatever bondage they may be in.

I see the lost as being in two catagories.
1.) The lost who are not yet saved.
2.) The lost who never will be saved.

Pray for discernment. Ask if so and so is wicked and evil, or if they would come into the kingdom. Do not ever lean on your own understanding, especially where the eternal destiny of another soul is concerned.


Fnerb said:
I guess the thought of not praying for others is just completely illogical to me.

EXACTLY!

Jhn 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it].

I can not imagine having the nerve to ask for healing, for a house, a car, a job, or "Any thing" except for someone else to come to saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.


Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, [there] thou hast [that is] thine.
Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, [Thou] wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and [then] at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give [it] unto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



Do you suppose that the Lord is interested in His servants investing their talents in something other than reaching the lost for Jesus?
 

mutzrein

Member
From
Auckland NZ
Messages
2,734
Joined
Jan 24, 2006
francisdesales said:
Well, the thing is that we don't know who the lost ARE... People convert, and we don't know if person "X" is going to be one of those who comes to Christ - nor do we know how our prayers will effect this process. Perhaps Jesus was refering to those who would not convert, who were obstinate in the face of the evidence - and of course, He knew who were lost, as He says in John 3.

Regards

Yes I agree - I don't know those who will come to Christ, but I do know that Jesus said, "no-one can come to the Father except through him (Jesus) and no-one can come to him, unless the Father draws him." My prayer is that God leads me to these.
 
Top