Salvation by grace through faith; not through works / law-keeping.

[justbyfaith]

Hopeful.

I am starting this thread so as not to continue to derail the baptism thread where we began this discussion.

 

[justbyfaith]

Rom 9:30, What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31, But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32, Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33, As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:1, Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2, For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3, For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4, For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Here in this passage we find that the Gentiles did not follow a law of righteousness and yet obtained the righteousness of faith;

While Israel attempted to earn righteousness through law-keeping and could not attain to righteousness.

Because they stumbled at a stumbling stone.

This stumbling stone is the law. It is also Christ.

Because, when people have faith in Jesus, they inadvertently keep the law (Galatians 5:22-23), some ascertain from this that it is keeping the law that makes a person Christian.

That is not the case. What makes a person Christian is his faith.

But because it seems that Christianity is exemplified by those who keep the law, some have determined that in the keeping of a set of do's and don'ts, they can make themselves Christian.

A Christian is someone who has been bought and redeemed through the blood of the Lamb; and this is only acquired by faith. No amount of law-keeping, apart from faith, will ever procure it.

Israel, going about to establish their own righteousness by attempting to keep the law, have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God.

The righteousness of God comes about by faith.

Rom 1:17, For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

 

[justbyfaith]

Phl 3:1 (nlt), Whatever happens, my dear brothers and sisters, rejoice in the Lord. I never get tired of telling you these things, and I do it to safeguard your faith.
Phl 3:2, Watch out for those dogs, those people who do evil, those mutilators who say you must be circumcised to be saved.
Phl 3:3, For we who worship by the Spirit of God are the ones who are truly circumcised. We rely on what Christ Jesus has done for us. We put no confidence in human effort,
Phl 3:4, though I could have confidence in my own effort if anyone could. Indeed, if others have reason for confidence in their own efforts, I have even more!
Phl 3:5, I was circumcised when I was eight days old. I am a pure-blooded citizen of Israel and a member of the tribe of Benjamin—a real Hebrew if there ever was one! I was a member of the Pharisees, who demand the strictest obedience to the Jewish law.
Phl 3:6, I was so zealous that I harshly persecuted the church. And as for righteousness, I obeyed the law without fault.
Phl 3:7, I once thought these things were valuable, but now I consider them worthless because of what Christ has done.
Phl 3:8, Yes, everything else is worthless when compared with the infinite value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have discarded everything else, counting it all as garbage, so that I could gain Christ
Phl 3:9, and become one with him. I no longer count on my own righteousness through obeying the law; rather, I become righteous through faith in Christ. For God’s way of making us right with himself depends on faith.

Here in this passage, we find that Paul was perfectly blameless according to the law. He advocates not trusting in such a thing as that to save you. In verse 6, he was blameless; but in verses 7 and 8, he counts this as but loss and also as dung in order that he might have a relationship with Jesus Christ. He threw away his blamelessness as though it were garbage.

It is determined by Paul that there is a righteousness that is better than the righteousness of the law; a righteousness that is of God that comes by faith.

Jesus told the scribes and Pharisees to clean the inside of the cup and platter because up till now they had only cleansed the outside, so they were like whitewashed tombs that were full of dead men's bones; of all extortion and wickedness. Yet the Pharisees were perfectly righteous according to the outward requirements of the law; just as Paul says he was, here in this passage.

Paul says in Galatians,

Gal 2:19 (nlt), For when I tried to keep the law, it condemned me. So I died to the law—I stopped trying to meet all its requirements—so that I might live for God.

When Paul stopped focusing on the law as a set of do's and don'ts to be kept in order to be saved, and placed his faith and hope in Jesus Christ, he found that he was regenerated and renewed on the inside.

Tit 3:5 (nlt), he saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins, giving us a new birth and new life through the Holy Spirit.

The love of the Lord was shed abroad in his heart.

Rom 5:5 (nlt), And this hope will not lead to disappointment. For we know how dearly God loves us, because he has given us the Holy Spirit to fill our hearts with his love.

Thus the inside of the cup and platter was cleansed; and he received the righteousness which is of God by faith.

To do this he had to throw away his blamelessness according to the law; which he had obtained through his own self-effort in attempting to keep a set of do's and don'ts.

Then, in loving God and neighbor, the righteousness of the law was fulfilled in him in the practical sense because of the work that Jesus had performed on the inside of Paul.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yep, obedience to God saves.

So obedience does not = works, in your opinion?

Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9, Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[justbyfaith]

Faith without action is dead faith.

Nevertheless, it is not the action, but a living faith, that saves.

Rom 4:4, Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

If Abraham was saved because he offered his son Isaac on the altar, then salvation is owed to him by God.

Abraham's salvation was by faith apart from works (Romans 4:1-8).

Rom 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Abraham's faith, apart from works, was counted to him for righteousness; and likewise, when we have faith, it is counted to us for righteousness, apart from works.

Now if we have a genuine faith, our hearts are changed from the inside out; and we will be inclined towards doing good works.

But what if we have received such a heart change; but then get run over by a bus on the way home from the church where we got saved?

Are we then consigned to hell?

I don't think so.

Even though there are no works attached to the faith that we received, we will go to heaven because it was a genuine faith, apart from works, that saved us.

If we had been allowed to live on, the living faith produced within us would no doubt have produced good works; and our faith would have then been shown to have been living.

But man looks on the outward appearance and God looks on the heart.

In the instance where a man receives genuine faith but then has no opportunity to do any good works, God sees the heart of that man, that his faith was genuine.

Likewise if someone is a parapalegic and cannot do good works as the result.

In the case of Joni Earickson Tada, was she saved because she painted paintings with the paintbrush in her teeth?

Were her paintings even anything that might be considered to have been of eternal value?

Perhaps, if somebody looked at one of them and gave their heart to Christ, it could be said yes.

But if not, why would the fact that she painted something with a paintbrush in her teeth be of any salvational value to her?

What matters for her is the fact that she believes in Jesus. If her paintings reveal to us that she has faith, then her faith is not dead because it has attached to it works that show that her faith is genuine.

But the works show her faith before man; not before God.

Even without those works, God knows whether or not her faith is genuine.

Rom 4:2, For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Abraham, because of his works, was justified and had whereof to glory, before men and not before God.

Because it is written,

Heb 4:13, Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

So, God looks into the inner recesses of Abraham's heart and determines that he has a genuine faith, apart from Abraham's work of offering Isaac on the altar.

Of course, even before God, Abraham's work proved that he had a genuine faith.

But God knew that his faith was genuine even before he offered his son on the altar.

As it is written,

Gen 15:5, And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
Gen 15:6, And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Abraham believed at the juncture of Genesis 15:6, many years before he offered up Isaac.

When he offered up Isaac, Abraham affirmed his belief that his descendants (through Isaac) would be as the stars in heaven; because Isaac as yet had no progenitors; and Abraham's faith was such that he believed that He would even raise Isaac from the dead. He concluded that this was the only possibility because of God's promise in Genesis 15:5. So, he went through with the sacrifice; only God stopped him in the nick of time and Abraham did in fact receive Isaac back from the dead in a figure.

 

[JLB]

Phl 3:1 (nlt), Whatever happens, my dear brothers and sisters, rejoice in the Lord. I never get tired of telling you these things, and I do it to safeguard your faith.
Phl 3:2, Watch out for those dogs, those people who do evil, those mutilators who say you must be circumcised to be saved.
Phl 3:3, For we who worship by the Spirit of God are the ones who are truly circumcised. We rely on what Christ Jesus has done for us. We put no confidence in human effort,
Phl 3:4, though I could have confidence in my own effort if anyone could. Indeed, if others have reason for confidence in their own efforts, I have even more!
Phl 3:5, I was circumcised when I was eight days old. I am a pure-blooded citizen of Israel and a member of the tribe of Benjamin—a real Hebrew if there ever was one! I was a member of the Pharisees, who demand the strictest obedience to the Jewish law.
Phl 3:6, I was so zealous that I harshly persecuted the church. And as for righteousness, I obeyed the law without fault.
Phl 3:7, I once thought these things were valuable, but now I consider them worthless because of what Christ has done.
Phl 3:8, Yes, everything else is worthless when compared with the infinite value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have discarded everything else, counting it all as garbage, so that I could gain Christ
Phl 3:9, and become one with him. I no longer count on my own righteousness through obeying the law; rather, I become righteous through faith in Christ. For God’s way of making us right with himself depends on faith.

Here in this passage, we find that Paul was perfectly blameless according to the law. He advocates not trusting in such a thing as that to save you. In verse 6, he was blameless; but in verses 7 and 8, he counts this as but loss and also as dung in order that he might have a relationship with Jesus Christ. He threw away his blamelessness as though it were garbage.

It is determined by Paul that there is a righteousness that is better than the righteousness of the law; a righteousness that is of God that comes by faith.

Jesus told the scribes and Pharisees to clean the inside of the cup and platter because up till now they had only cleansed the outside, so they were like whitewashed tombs that were full of dead men's bones; of all extortion and wickedness. Yet the Pharisees were perfectly righteous according to the outward requirements of the law; just as Paul says he was, here in this passage.

Paul says in Galatians,

Gal 2:19 (nlt), For when I tried to keep the law, it condemned me. So I died to the law—I stopped trying to meet all its requirements—so that I might live for God.

When Paul stopped focusing on the law as a set of do's and don'ts to be kept in order to be saved, and placed his faith and hope in Jesus Christ, he found that he was regenerated and renewed on the inside.

Tit 3:5 (nlt), he saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins, giving us a new birth and new life through the Holy Spirit.

The love of the Lord was shed abroad in his heart.

Rom 5:5 (nlt), And this hope will not lead to disappointment. For we know how dearly God loves us, because he has given us the Holy Spirit to fill our hearts with his love.

Thus the inside of the cup and platter was cleansed; and he received the righteousness which is of God by faith.

To do this he had to throw away his blamelessness according to the law; which he had obtained through his own self-effort in attempting to keep a set of do's and don'ts.

Then, in loving God and neighbor, the righteousness of the law was fulfilled in him in the practical sense because of the work that Jesus had performed on the inside of Paul.

Do you believe loving your neighbor is a requirement for salvation?

 

[justbyfaith]

Do you believe loving your neighbor is a requirement for salvation?

No; rather I believe that it is the sure result of having salvation (Romans 5:5).

Which amounts to the same thing...

That if you do not love your neighbor, it signifies damnation.

Nevertheless, one does not obtain salvation through loving one's neighbor.

Salvation is obtained through believing the gospel of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

All subsequent works are not done, by the saved, in order to obtain salvation.

They are done because the saved is saved.

For I define salvation as the new birth into a life of loving like God loves.

The new life that is given is to simply be inundated with the love of the Lord.

 

[JLB]

No; rather I believe that it is the sure result of having salvation (Romans 5:5).

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


No longer has eternal life remaining in him.




JLB

 

[Hopeful]

No; rather I believe that it is the sure result of having salvation (Romans 5:5).

Which amounts to the same thing...

That if you do not love your neighbor, it signifies damnation.

Nevertheless, one does not obtain salvation through loving one's neighbor.

Salvation is obtained through believing the gospel of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

All subsequent works are not done, by the saved, in order to obtain salvation.

They are done because the saved is saved.

For I define salvation as the new birth into a life of loving like God loves.

The new life that is given is to simply be inundated with the love of the Lord.

I define "salvation" as finding my name is in the book of life on the last day.
Until then, I will work out my salvation with fear and hope.
What you call "salvation", I call "conversion".

 

[justbyfaith]

I define "salvation" as finding my name is in the book of life on the last day.
Until then, I will work out my salvation with fear and hope.
What you call "salvation", I call "conversion".

Yes; and we can know that we know that we know that we are saved (that we have everlasting life and that we are children of God), even in the present moment.

1 John 5:13,

Romans 8:16.

 

[justbyfaith]

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


No longer has eternal life remaining in him.




JLB

Yes, which shows that eternal life abides in those who truly love God and neighbor as scripture commands.

Such a love comes only from the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:5).

We can't "muster it up" in the power of the flesh.

It is the gift of God.

 

[gordon777]

Salvation came to man by the works that Christ did, on the cross, as Christ says clearly, the works He does, bear witness of Him ( words/faith alone, bears witness of nothing.).

Important to note, that Jesus declared how the work He finished, which the Father gave Him to be done, glorified the Father on the earth.



John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.



It is a work of faith....


1 Thessalonians 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;




Faith works by love..


Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.



Salvation is by grace through faith, in the works that Christ did, and finished.

Salvation is not by grace through faith, without the works that Christ did and finished, as He told us, we shall do those works and greater than those, as He went to the Father. ( after He finished the works the Father gave Him to do, to glorify Him on earth.)

We read how we believe on the Son through the works He was given to finish ( the death of the cross is that work, glorifying the Father through this, the works bearing witness of the Son, which brings salvation to man.)

He that believes on Jesus ( through the works that bear witness/give glory to the Father.) they do also, ( likewise) and greater works, as the Son went to the Father. ( to be in us, to do the works in us,and glorify God, the same.)



John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.




The love of God, the Spirit, given, ( only through belief in what bears witness of Christ/the works He was given to finish/the cross.) fill us with those fruits of righteousness, by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Walking worthy of God, calling us unto His Kingdom and glory. ( by belief in the work of the cross, not in talk of man.)

The divine power of God has given us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, ( salvation.) through the knowledge of Christ, who called us to glory and virtue. ( the calling we have is the work that Christ finished on the cross, not faith/believing in vain/vanity.)



Philippians 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

1 Thessalonians 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:




Believing in/ turning the grace of God, into lasciviousness/vanity/denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.



1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[gordon777]

I think the time has come to leave everybody now, to the vain conversation, it is not Holy conversation.



Vain conversation:


1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;




Holy conversation. ( if anyone had believed that God is Holy, so we should be Holy in all manner of conversation. exaltation, strife, debate, it was always anti.)




1 Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;


2 Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

 

[justbyfaith]

Salvation came to man by the works that Christ did, on the cross, as Christ says clearly, the works He does, bear witness of Him ( words/faith alone, bears witness of nothing.).

Important to note, that Jesus declared how the work He finished, which the Father gave Him to be done, glorified the Father on the earth.



John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.



It is a work of faith....


1 Thessalonians 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;




Faith works by love..


Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.



Salvation is by grace through faith, in the works that Christ did, and finished.

Salvation is not by grace through faith, without the works that Christ did and finished, as He told us, we shall do those works and greater than those, as He went to the Father. ( after He finished the works the Father gave Him to do, to glorify Him on earth.)

We read how we believe on the Son through the works He was given to finish ( the death of the cross is that work, glorifying the Father through this, the works bearing witness of the Son, which brings salvation to man.)

He that believes on Jesus ( through the works that bear witness/give glory to the Father.) they do also, ( likewise) and greater works, as the Son went to the Father. ( to be in us, to do the works in us,and glorify God, the same.)



John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.




The love of God, the Spirit, given, ( only through belief in what bears witness of Christ/the works He was given to finish/the cross.) fill us with those fruits of righteousness, by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Walking worthy of God, calling us unto His Kingdom and glory. ( by belief in the work of the cross, not in talk of man.)

The divine power of God has given us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, ( salvation.) through the knowledge of Christ, who called us to glory and virtue. ( the calling we have is the work that Christ finished on the cross, not faith/believing in vain/vanity.)



Philippians 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

1 Thessalonians 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:




Believing in/ turning the grace of God, into lasciviousness/vanity/denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.



1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes, of course it is Jesus and what He did for us on the Cross, that we place our faith in.

 

[justbyfaith]

I think the time has come to leave everybody now, to the vain conversation, it is not Holy conversation.



Vain conversation:


1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;




Holy conversation. ( if anyone had believed that God is Holy, so we should be Holy in all manner of conversation. exaltation, strife, debate, it was always anti.)




1 Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;


2 Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

What is it, that you would say is unholy about this conversation?

 

[Hopeful]

Yes; and we can know that we know that we know that we are saved (that we have everlasting life and that we are children of God), even in the present moment.

1 John 5:13,

Romans 8:16.

What you "know" today may change tomorrow.

 

[justbyfaith]

What you "know" today may change tomorrow.

If I know that I have everlasting life...think about this...then I have everlasting life.

And if it is everlasting, it can not ever come to an end...otherwise it would have been defined as temporal.

That being said, we ought to go to the parable of the sower.

soil type #1 is not a believer.

soil types #2 and #3 are living plants...they have spiritual life but are not of the elect because their life is not everlasting.

It is only soil type #4 that endures, bearing fruit to the end; and which can be said to be of the elect.

It is only this type of soil that can be said to be the recipients of such promises in scripture as John 5:24 and John 10:27-30.

 

[Hopeful]

If I know that I have everlasting life...think about this...then I have everlasting life.
And if it is everlasting, it can not ever come to an end...otherwise it would have been defined as temporal.

Hold fast to your faith, and the good eternal life will not be taken from you.

That being said, we ought to go to the parable of the sower.
soil type #1 is not a believer.
soil types #2 and #3 are living plants...they have spiritual life but are not of the elect because their life is not everlasting.
It is only soil type #4 that endures, bearing fruit to the end; and which can be said to be of the elect.
It is only this type of soil that can be said to be the recipients of such promises in scripture as John 5:24 and John 10:27-30.

I am over-joyed that you can, and have been, living without sin for as long as you have!
Enduring till the end is not as easy as some would have us believe.
What percentage of "believers" will fall away when persecution comes?

 

[justbyfaith]

I am over-joyed that you can, and have been, living without sin for as long as you have!

Phl 3:12, Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Phl 3:13, Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Phl 3:14, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Phl 3:15, Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

 

[Hopeful]

Phl 3:12, Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Phl 3:13, Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Phl 3:14, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Phl 3:15, Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Had you included verse 11 above you would see what he had not yet attained.
Phil 3:11..."If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead."

I guess you are saying you are not freed from sin yet.
That can change with a true repentance from sin.