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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Satan winning battle for souls
- Thread starter joechrist
- Start date
Orion said:
If, I said if, if Love, Moral code, Law, Justice and everything else which are actually belong to God and that they are removed from planet earth, then what will you be???
That's what hell is, and you'll be worthless anyway under the circumstance. You think you are good because you rely on a standard which belongs to God.
Hope that this time you are less offended.
God's law says that you should kill your unruled child. Are you going to be obedient? Are you going to be obedient and kill the next witch you find? 
I think I would be just fine without THOSE "moral laws".
Is that the "moral law" you uphold? An atheist (of which I am not, BTW) doesn't need an ancient book telling him "not to kill". Society depends upon the magority not killing others of their kind. Lion prides even know this! As do many other animal species.
I think I would be just fine without THOSE "moral laws". Is that the "moral law" you uphold? An atheist (of which I am not, BTW) doesn't need an ancient book telling him "not to kill". Society depends upon the magority not killing others of their kind. Lion prides even know this! As do many other animal species.
F
follower of Christ
Guest
The Lord knows those who are His. Not one soul who is His will be lost.joechrist said:
Our job is to get the gospel to all men. God knows who will repent and who will remain in rebellion.
N
NIGHTMARE
Guest
follower of Christ said:
There is no seperation in some souls being His and others not being His.......
Behold, ALL SOULS ARE MINE; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
U
Unlimited
Guest
God is winning. He's getting all of the souls we wants to get.
Everyone is a sinner by nature and choice (of course, because actions are the result of nature). Everyone by default chooses themselves over God. Not a single one is righteous; all have fallen away; all of that stuff.
Then God is merciful enough to save some of us from our sins (ie. the ones God called before the foundations of the world were set). The elect are chosen in accordance with the perfect will of God. And Jesus himself says that he will lose none of them several times throughout John.
Therefore, God can't be losing to Satan if he's winning everyone whom he wants to win.
Everyone is a sinner by nature and choice (of course, because actions are the result of nature). Everyone by default chooses themselves over God. Not a single one is righteous; all have fallen away; all of that stuff.
Then God is merciful enough to save some of us from our sins (ie. the ones God called before the foundations of the world were set). The elect are chosen in accordance with the perfect will of God. And Jesus himself says that he will lose none of them several times throughout John.
Therefore, God can't be losing to Satan if he's winning everyone whom he wants to win.
Wow, there are SO many wrong posts here, where to begin? Nevermind, I'll jsut go back to the OP.
Joe, the dilemma you're seeing is probably because your premise is flawed. Saying "God wills that every soul be saved" is incorrect. The correct thing to say is that God willed to give everyone the choice to choose right from wrong, and wants everyone to choose right. In this way, those that choose right fulfill God's will and those who choose wrong still fulfill God's will.
So in essence, God is not losing anything. He willed to make a world with a race of beings (humans) that had the ability and the responsibility to choose to worship Him. Those that do He gives eternal life. Those that do not, He does not. It was always His plan. He always wins.
joechrist said:
Joe, the dilemma you're seeing is probably because your premise is flawed. Saying "God wills that every soul be saved" is incorrect. The correct thing to say is that God willed to give everyone the choice to choose right from wrong, and wants everyone to choose right. In this way, those that choose right fulfill God's will and those who choose wrong still fulfill God's will.
So in essence, God is not losing anything. He willed to make a world with a race of beings (humans) that had the ability and the responsibility to choose to worship Him. Those that do He gives eternal life. Those that do not, He does not. It was always His plan. He always wins.
turnorburn
Member
What's up with your handle mac? that's disgusting use the Lords name that way.. 
Unlimited said:God is winning. He's getting all of the souls we wants to get.
Everyone is a sinner by nature and choice (of course, because actions are the result of nature). Everyone by default chooses themselves over God. Not a single one is righteous; all have fallen away; all of that stuff.
Then God is merciful enough to save some of us from our sins (ie. the ones God called before the foundations of the world were set). The elect are chosen in accordance with the perfect will of God. And Jesus himself says that he will lose none of them several times throughout John.
Therefore, God can't be losing to Satan if he's winning everyone whom he wants to win.
So, . . . then God plays favorites? Are you saying that God DOESN'T want to win me? :o Wow, . . . . so then, by default, God WANTS me to burn in Hell, . . because he doesn't want me. He CHOOSES to make BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of souls, . . .but really only wants a small fraction of them? And you're okay with this???
U
Unlimited
Guest
Orion said:Unlimited said:God is winning. He's getting all of the souls we wants to get.
Everyone is a sinner by nature and choice (of course, because actions are the result of nature). Everyone by default chooses themselves over God. Not a single one is righteous; all have fallen away; all of that stuff.
Then God is merciful enough to save some of us from our sins (ie. the ones God called before the foundations of the world were set). The elect are chosen in accordance with the perfect will of God. And Jesus himself says that he will lose none of them several times throughout John.
Therefore, God can't be losing to Satan if he's winning everyone whom he wants to win.
So, . . . then God plays favorites? Are you saying that God DOESN'T want to win me? :o Wow, . . . . so then, by default, God WANTS me to burn in Hell, . . because he doesn't want me. He CHOOSES to make BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of souls, . . .but really only wants a small fraction of them? And you're okay with this???
Nope. He does not delight in the deaths of the wicked, and He wants everyone to be saved. But, due to Original Sin and its resulting actions, no one wants to choose God. Everyone has betrayed a good God. Here's more bad news: Every single person who has ever lived deserves to burn in hell for ever and ever. The reason: no one is good; everyone sins. So God chooses a man to make his nation on Earth (Abram). Note that he didn't pick some other guy (perhaps in Egypt). Why? Because it was his plan. God does everything in accordance with his perfect will. You've got to realize that salvation is for the glory of God, not for the glory of man. So God saved who he wanted to save for His glory. The rest..well, He let them do what they wanted to do. And I'm afraid their destination is Hell.
Unlimited said:
"Original sin" was God's will. So, he burns people for making them who they are? The answer to that is "yes". And how can I actually CHOOSE God, when all there is to go on is the works of MEN? I have not heard anything from God. And as for your "more bad news", that is your opinion of that which MEN claimed to be "from God"! You have no evidence that such will take place for "the unsaved". On that subject, the majority of people live a live that does NOT warrant "burning for all eternity". And IF this god you speak of really DID set up those rules, then make it completely reliant upon humans to "believe that which was written by men", of a diety that chose to leave earth and not be heard of again, . . . then it would be completely UNjust to punish people for what would basically be ONLY a "thought crime". Because they happened to "choose incorrectly". Again, that is IF what YOU believe is actually true.
By the way, . . . . why is God interested in "all of this glory" in the first place? Does he lack that which only WE can give?? Think on that for a while!
U
Unlimited
Guest
Orion said:
If by "'Original Sin sin' was God's will", you mean his permissive will, yes. God let us sin against him. It was a result of Adam's and Eve's free will.
One cannot choose God unless God has opened his eyes. Otherwise he just can't. (Romans 8:7)
Revelation 20:15 says that eternal punishment is the destination for the unsaved. "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (KJV)
Everyone lives a life that warrants eternal punishment. Everyone has committed sin. It only takes a single sin to warrant eternal punishment. Just one. You're probably thinking its not fair. This is what Martin Luther said: God is infinitely holy. All sins against God are sins against his holiness. Any sin against His infinite holiness requires infinite punishment. Think of how many times you sin in a day, a week, a month, a year, a lifetime.
As for that last question, God is interested in receiving all of the glory because the point of creation is to praise and glorify God. He lacks nothing. If He didn't make everything happen in accordance with his will, He would be the God described by Deism and not Christianity.
Unlimited said:
No, . . NOT "permissive will". It was THE plan. If God is omniscient, and can see the future, then it WAS the plan, all that happened, all along. Adam and Eve may have been created "perfect", but they were created perfectly to fail at the most stupidest and gullible thing. There is so much to that topic, . . . for another thread, though.
Unlimited said:
How do YOU know if "God actually opened your eyes"? You are assuming because YOU say so, or maybe even FEEL so, . . . that it is true. You can't know that. Just one of the major flaws of 5 point Calvanism.
Unlimited said:
You are quoting something that is found in a book that is HIGHLY metaphorical (lake of fire).
Unlimited said:
And I'm sure that Martin Luther got this idea straight from God. Just another attempt from a man to make himself and everyone else out to be worthless. "Life is precious", it is said. Why worry about how many babies are aborted if life is worthless and deserving of an eternal hell?
Unlimited said:
WHY did God "set up creation to praise and glorify himself"? If you're content with who you are, why the NEED (and it is what it would be if you set something up with the SOLE purpose to worship you) to have worthless souls praise you? Do you not see the problem with that?
U
Unlimited
Guest
Orion said:
Thanks for replying so quickly! :D
1. If God is omniscient, he knows what has happened, what is happening, and what will happen. That does not necessarily mean he is the cause of all that is done. God knew that Adam would sin, but He DID NOT force Adam to sin.
2. I assume that God opened my eyes because I believe what the Bible says and have accepted Jesus into my heart. I would not have truly accepted Jesus as my Lord if my eyes had not been opened.
3. My reference to Revelation was founded purely on the fact that the book is metaphorical. I think when it describes punishment as a lake of fire in which Satan and his followers will be tormented for ever and ever, it is metaphorically speaking of eternal punishment,
4. Here's a logical thought process when examining what people say about Christianity:
a. Is he a Christian? (Martin Luther was definately a Christian.)
b. Has he had extensive research in the Bible? (Of course, Luther had been studying the Bible for nearly his entire life.)
c. Is what he's saying contradictory to the Bible? (Nope. Nothing in the Bible contradicts his point.)
d. If all of those questions are met, it seems as though he's speaking the truth.
5. There is no need. God just wanted himself to be worshipped, possibly to perfect what he had created through worship of their Creator.
Unlimited said:
1. Yes, he created Adam to fail. It was set up from the beginning, or there would not have been a "tree" nor access for an entity which was known to be deceitful.
2. You may assume what you will. You can't fully know, since you don't know the mind of God, nor any decisions made. You just go on human feelings.
3. I'm not sure that makes any sense. . . .
4. Martin Luther had only the works created and put together by men, who made their own assumptions for God.
5. There is no need for a complete individual to "want himself worshipped". It is a human notion, based upon our own narcisism, and projected upon God.
Ok, you're right that He does not delight in the deaths of the wicked and wants everyone to be saved. But I can't agree with you when you say no one wants to choose God, period. You're painting man as not having the ability to choose God and that flies in the face of scripture.Unlimited said:
Yes, everyone has betrayed God, and every person deserves eternal punishment, the good thing is God has justified us, set aside the sins of the whole world (everyone, not just some 'elect' group) if we'll just accept His sacrifice and humble ourselves and repent.
God did choose a people unto Himself but by saying it was just His plan you're essentially saying you have no idea why he did it. The reason He picked Israel to be His people, the reason why he picked the nomadic, poor gypsies of the desert, the lowliest people anywhere, people without a land to call home, as His people was because He wanted to show His glory to all the nations of the earth. By working in them and through them to raise them up to be a great nation He knew that there couldn’t be any doubt that in the end everyone would have to say ‘it was God who did this, not the Israelites.’ The reason choosing Abram was part of His plan was so that we would have evidence that God is merciful, God is just, and maybe most importantly in this context that God does have sovereignty over our lives and can do whatever He wishes with us, if He so chooses.
Salvation is for the glory of God, not man, but to say that God has chosen to save some and not save others blasphemes the very character of the God who is love.
I won't speak for Joe but God does want everyone to have eternal life. But when He made us I would submit that He withheld from Himself His own foreknowledge of how we would act. Not that God did not have the ability to know, that He withheld it from Himself to allow us the opportunity to choose.mondar said:
This plays directly into what the definition of omniscience is, and maybe we should start with that?
Orion, your premises are askew. The evidence that God has laid out for us to be able to recognize that He exists and that we are not the almighty beings, that there is one superior to us comes from many places. Yes, scripture is one, but as Paul says all of creation is another way that God makes it plain to us His majesty. Have you ever gone out on a dark, cloudless night and looked up into the heavens? Or sat with your eyes closed in the forest in the spring? The wonder of God's creation is all around us.Orion said:
God has also written His law upon our hearts, meaning we do know intrinsically that it is wrong to hurt others just for personal gain. So judging us for knowing that we should be kind to our neighbors and not doing so is not unjust, even if we don't want to believe the writings of other men or have never even heard the gospel message.
U
Unlimited
Guest
Orion said:Unlimited said:
1. Yes, he created Adam to fail. It was set up from the beginning, or there would not have been a "tree" nor access for an entity which was known to be deceitful.
2. You may assume what you will. You can't fully know, since you don't know the mind of God, nor any decisions made. You just go on human feelings.
3. I'm not sure that makes any sense. . . .
4. Martin Luther had only the works created and put together by men, who made their own assumptions for God.
5. There is no need for a complete individual to "want himself worshipped". It is a human notion, based upon our own narcisism, and projected upon God.
1. The tree and the serpent can have 1 of 2 purposes. The first one is what you said, in which God deceitfully set Adam up. The second is that their purpose was to have Adam and Eve spiritually grow. In a world devoid of sin, how would one grow maturely? Placing things in the world (Do not mistake me, the serpent was evil) that if handled incorrectly could result in sin. That, anyway, is how a great Christian I know explained. Personally, I think he makes a good point.
2. That's correct.
3. Sorry for the confusion. I'll try to explain. The Bible is saying that some great, eternal punishment awaits Satan, his demons, and sinners. Revelation explained it as a lake of burning sulfur. A great metaphor in my opinion.
4. Ah, but Martin Luther had the Bible, a book written by the hand of God through the eyes of man.
5. I've been saying that. I'll say it again: God does NOT need to be worshipped. He wants himself to be for a reason I, nor anyone else, knows.