Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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You have it.I've simply asked for your understanding, so we're on the same page.
When they are destroyed on the day of judgment. 2 Peter 3:7OK, thanks. So, when does this "ceasing to exist" occur for unbelievers?
(Edited, A&T Guidelines: Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding.) What do you mean by physical death? Is this a kind of death where the dying person remains alive?Need more clarification. Do you mean after physical death or the second death? If you mean the second death, what is the conscious condition of the unsaved?
You asking this again. You assume that being destroyed is no punishment. I don't agree with that. Destruction is the punishment, whether or not the destroyed person can feel it. Your question makes no sense. Having eternal life is the reward, losing out on having eternal life is the punishment. I don't know why you don't understand this. (Edited, ToS 2.4, Rudeness. Obadiah) I think that you really do understand that LIFE is better than DEATH. (Edited, ToS 2.4, Rudeness. Obadiah)OK. And according to your definition, they "cease to exist". That means there is no conscious anything. So how's that any punishment. Who can feel punishment or wrath if they don't exist?
No, this statement doesn't make any sense and it is not anything like what I said. We were talking about John 3:36 which specifically says that those who believe in the Son have eternal life and those who reject the Son do not have eternal life. The ungodly do not have consciousness in hell, when they die they are dead. They are not conscious while they are dead. They do not have eternal life so they are not conscious after they die. The unsaved live while they are alive, reject the Son of God, die, are dead (meaning - Not Alive), are resurrected for judgment on judgment day, and then they are destroyed completely, they perish. They are not alive after they perish, they are not alive after they have been destroyed. (Edited, ToS 2.4, Rudeness. Obadiah)So, do you believe that their consciousness is in hell only, and then they cease to exist after the GWT?
No, it does not. You ASSUME that the eternal punishment is eternal consciousness. Eternal Destruction is the eternal punishment.Yet, this goes against Scripture that says that the unsaved will have eternal punishment.
(Edited, A&T Guidelines: Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding.)My view of Christ's mission is correct. He came to pay for the sins of mankind, and to save them from eternal punishment. When He accomplished on the cross, there was nothing left for Him to do on earth.
If Paul’s the one that brought up spiritual death in His Ephesians letter, then there can’t very well be any OT prophecies about Jesus dying a 'spiritual death' prior to His physical one,(Edit, sarcasm. Obadiah)I'm glad you mentioned Paul. He is the one who brought up being born spiritually dead. Eph 2.
(Edited, A&T Guidelines: Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding.)Why do you think Jesus endured all the physical torture leading up to and including hanging on the cross, "as a Lamb who opened not his mouth", yet He screamed when His Father forsook Him. Think about it.
Thanks. I believe the Scriptural evidence is much more for eternal destruction than it is for eternal life in hell being tormented alive forever.I agree and I still love you!
I only post eternal torment, because that is what I believe from people's personal accounts of it from NDEs and other people who have seen it, and when Jesus speaks of the "worm does not die" and "gnashing of teeth". I personally feel he wouldn't have mentioned that, if people just cease to exist.
[Inappropriate comment.] If something or someone is destroyed, it must be within a finite time frame. It cannot go on forever. While the word "apollumi" or "destroy" or "perish" is used in relation to Hell, it must be interpreted as "utter ruin" in the light of all the other things said about Hell. [Scriptural support for this statement, please]I believe the Scriptural evidence is much more for eternal destruction than it is for eternal life in hell being tormented alive forever.
Jude 1:7 says that the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is an example of the of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed in one night, yet it is an eternal destruction. The way I understand this is eternal destruction is destruction that remains forever, the one destroyed does not become undestroyed.If something or someone is destroyed, it must be within a finite time frame. It cannot go on forever.
In Greek, it is not just the word apollumi which tells of the destruction of the ungodly. In the example I gave before, 2 Thess 1:9, the word for destruction is olethron. "οἵτινες δίκην τίσουσιν ὄλεθρον αἰώνιον..."While the word "apollumi" or "destroy" or "perish" is used in relation to Hell, it must be interpreted as "utter ruin" in the light of all the other things said about Hell.
According to Jesus Christ in Matthew 10:28, both the body and soul are destroyed in hell. I agree that there is no eternal life in hell. I disagree that there is eternal consciousness in hell, since Jesus Christ said in Matthew 10:28 that we should fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. Peter also says in 2 Peter 3 that the ungodly will be destroyed on the day of judgment and destruction. Here is 2 Peter 3:7, "But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly."And there is no "eternal life" is Hell. It is eternal, conscious, intense suffering and torment.
I respectfully disagree with you that there is no basis in Scripture:As to your denial of eternal torment in Hell, you have absolutely no basis in Scripture (Rev 20:10).
I believe that the ungodly will be destroyed because of 2 Thess 1:9 which says the penalty is eternal destruction, 2 Peter 3:7 which says the "destruction of the ungodly" and other Scripture passages. I respectfully disagree that believing that the ungodly will be destroyed should be called "wishful thinking". I don't wish destruction on anyone.That is simply wishful thinking.
I agree, and whether multitudes deny the existence of hell or whether multitudes affirm the existence of hell, what really matters is what the Bible says. The opinions of people do not change what the Bible says.Multitudes simply deny the existence of Hell altogether. That does not change anything.
That is undeniable, and I believe that the Bible is true. Here is what John 3:16 says:Truth is truth.
I missed this post before. I really want to give you a proper answer.Rev 20:11-15
11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake offire. NASB
Question for Tim W:
1. How can the "dead" of v.12 and v.13 "stand before the throne" if they don't exist, as you believe?
2. Do you see from this passage that there are 2 deaths? The "dead" of v.12 and 13 are those who have died physically, yet remain in "Hades", awaiting the GWT judgment.
If the "dead" don't exist, how can they be IN Hades, and "stand before the throne". And how can the dead experience a second death?
Your view cannot answer these very easy questions.
If death only means ceasing to exist, this passage contradicts that.
In fact, your view is refuted by this passage.
Here, in your opening sentence, you are making a truth claim for what you think is true about the phrase "Eternal Destruction". [Response to deleted comment][Inappropriate comment]
At the end of the discussion Dr. Mohler and Chris Date both said something I completely agree with.Here is a recent Christian Radio Program about two of the three major views of Hell.
http://www.premierchristianradio.co...te-debate-the-traditional-conditionalist-view
What do you think?
I'm personally not sure I agree with that, I don't embrace Divine Command Theory, that something is right merely because God commands it to be so. I think something is right if it flows from God's character, which of course his commandments do. I do not think that God would be just for eternally torturing people, nor would he be good from how I understand goodness and justice.At the end of the discussion Dr. Mohler and Chris Date both said something I completely agree with.
Whether a person believes that God sends the lost to hell to be tormented forever or whether the lost are destroyed, we all have to recognize and accept that what God will do is completely just. (Mohler said this, and Date agreed)
Dr. Mohler also said (and I agree completely) that we should not take our ideas of hell from Dante or any other influence, but we should go to the Bible.
However, I don’t necessarily disagree with anything you’ve said DI, either. There does seem to be something just not right about ECT from my perspective of justice. Why is there a need to eternally torture people? I don’t get it. It seems to just be un-natural to torment someone forever.At the end of the discussion Dr. Mohler and Chris Date both said something I completely agree with.
Whether a person believes that God sends the lost to hell to be tormented forever or whether the lost are destroyed, we all have to recognize and accept that what God will do is completely just. (Mohler said this, and Date agreed)
You ask a reasonable question above. I just don’t personally have an answer to it. Not only that, but I just don’t think it is necessary (or even the best use of my time) for me to try and rationalize ECT until we see if it’s true or not (after God makes all things right, that is).Why do you think God would be entirely just by eternally tormenting beings created in his image?
Thanks Butch, I appreciate that.I'm with you Tim, when the few verse quoted for ETC are looked at correctly the doctrine falls apart.
I don't believe that God does this, but if it turns out that the ECTists are correct, I still trust that God is just and I don't understand it. I agree with all that you have said. Perhaps the justice of God is an argument against ECT.I'm personally not sure I agree with that, I don't embrace Divine Command Theory, that something is right merely because God commands it to be so. I think something is right if it flows from God's character, which of course his commandments do. I do not think that God would be just for eternally torturing people, nor would he be good from how I understand goodness and justice.
1) How does actively tormenting someone for an eternity yield justice? How does it make things right?
2) How can a God who sacrificed his own Son for these people he loved, then be content to torture them forever in hell?
The picture of God from the ECT is that of an infinitely angry God, whose insatiable desire to express his wrath results in the majority of humanity created in his own image, to be tormented in agony for eternity. It doesn't seem to be the fault of the person who committed the crime, but rather to do the immense anger kindled up in God, which seems to defy all reason. To punish a person whose crimes are limited in time and scope to be confined to be an infinitely long and cruel punishment? It doesn't make sense with the Jesus revealed in Scripture, the God who is said to have his anger last but for a moment, but his mercy to endure forever. (Psalm 30:5)
Why do you think God would be entirely just by eternally tormenting beings created in his image?
I think this is the portion that is most relevant to Apologetics, as Hell is a popular subject in discussing with those who object to Christianity. They will often cite how the Traditional view of Hell does not make sense, and makes God out to look evil from their perspective. I've given this a bit of thought, and this is another reason for rejecting ECT.Basically, I’m pragmatic about what occupies my thoughts on this. I don’t see an imperative need to rationalize something that’s not true of the lost’s destiny to begin with. I just don’t spend a lot of time rationalizing ECT in my brain when I don’t even think it’s true to begin with. (When I did think ECT was true, I’d never really thought that much about how it’s Justice either, to be honest).
I see what you mean, and I don't think it's possible to rationalize it personally. One has to appeal to the mystery of God to assert such a doctrine.It seems to me our job is to determine if ECT (Biblically speaking) is what the punishment of the lost is. If ECT is not their punishment, then why spend time rationalizing it (see footnote 1 below, however)???
I discussed it with my Pastor, and he didn't really rebuke me or anything, he knows not to major on the minors and that fellowship can be maintained when it's regarding non-essential issues.But there’s that Footnote 1: There is a traditional church view of ECT of the lost being actively taught within the church today (my church included). Therefore it is important to discuss it (though frowned upon by many for some odd reason).
I’ve made this comment before but I think it’s relevant here so I’ll make it again. My former interim pastor (whom I have great respect for) some time back said from the pulpit one day:
“For the wages of sin is Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell” as if he was quoting a Scripture or something. And he even got some Amen(s), as I recall. Therefore, ECT is not just something that should be ignored, IMO. I never discussed it with him, for fear of conflict I suppose. [I bet ya'll find that hard to believe]
That always bugged me too.We can quibble over how long the ECT tradition has been around, how prevalent it was/is, which ‘denominations’ teach it and which don’t, etc. etc. [As Dr. Mohler did as his primary 'argument'] But to me, we should first and foremost be looking into how ECT is a Biblically based doctrine. And never, never quote some quasi-Scripture that says “For the wages of sin is ECT”.
I laid out an argument for this before.I don't believe that God does this, but if it turns out that the ECTists are correct, I still trust that God is just and I don't understand it. I agree with all that you have said. Perhaps the justice of God is an argument against ECT.
Introduction
An often overlooked issue (though I try to bring it up in discussions) is the Justice involved with the Eternal Conscious Torment perspective regarding God's final punishment of the wicked.
A frequent objection to my own position is an appeal to how the wicked somehow get off "easy" by being utterly destroyed. Which is a rather odd objection and would only be found by those who have conceptualized God as being an eternal tormentor. However, the objection remains nonetheless, but I think it misses the point. The point isn't what is the worst punishment imaginable, instead it is what is the Just punishment for the crime committed.
What is Just about Eternal Conscious Torment?
It is first important to understand that people don't send themselves to Hell. It is not the wicked who choose to go into hell, they are punished and cast in. For example, if I said, "I cast a rock into the lake," who would believe that the rock cast itself into the lake? The language is clear that those being cast into the lake of fire are being acted upon, they themselves could not possibly be acting on themselves and casting themselves in based upon the grammar.
Next, we must understand that people are sent in because they are being punished. The key component to this punishment according to those who hold to the ECT view, is their torment.
This is in line with the definition of torture as seen here: "the act of causing severe physical pain as a form of punishment."[1] (Please note that mental suffering and anguish also falls under the definition of this word)
It fits the description because they are..
1. Experiencing severe physical and/or mental anguish.
2. As a punishment for what they have done.
Now what is made right by this type of punishment? Is the sinner's way reformed? No. It is said to be for God to satisfy his wrath.
Think on this for a moment... our Lord Jesus Christ, our compassionate, gentle and loving savior has a deep need to see his wrath poured out on billions of people for all eternity.
Beloved, there is nothing Just about this concept. Tyrants and dictators are just by this standard, who torture those who oppose them and satisfy their own anger and fury. No wrong is made right by the anguish of billions of people suffering torment for quadrillions of years.
Conclusion
We would not afford any earthly dominion to exact justice via torture and torment, and this is because this merciless and barbaric form of punishment goes against every concept of justice we hold dear. God is righteous and therefore will do what is right, and there is nothing righteous about billions of human beings created in the image of God suffering torment for an infinite duration.
My challenge for those who hold to the Eternal Conscious Torment view is this, how is the torment of billions of people for an infinite duration a Just punishment?
Regards,
DI
[1] http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/torture
Southern Baptists aren't a heretical organization, nor as Dr. Mohler a heretic, despite the fact that I disagree with him on certain things.Before you start agreeing with Dr. Mohler maybe you should have a look at this..
List Of (Probable) False Christian Leaders, False Christian Teachers and False Prophets (As Indicated By The Ecumenical or Heretical Organisations They Belong To)
http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/12/list-of-false-christian-leaders-false.html
tob
Have you heard of a logical fallacy called "guilt by association"?Before you start agreeing with Dr. Mohler maybe you should have a look at this..
List Of (Probable) False Christian Leaders, False Christian Teachers and False Prophets (As Indicated By The Ecumenical or Heretical Organisations They Belong To)
http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/12/list-of-false-christian-leaders-false.html
tob
Hi WIP, Separation from God would be a bad thing, but then what do you make of all of the destruction passages in the Bible?Is it possible that what we understand "punishment" to be may not be quite correct? I personally believe that to not be in the presence of God for eternity (heaven) would be punishment with weaping and gnashing of teeth so long as one realizes what is happening. I see this being reinforced in the story of the rich man and Lazarus and how the rich man was in torment because he realized he could not be where he truly wanted to be. Does that make sense?
When Jesus cried out to the Father from the cross, "Why have you forsaken me?" I also suspect part of the reason for Christ's torment was that he was separated for a time.