Sin

[jaybo]

I have been focusing on sin recently and particularly how it applies to Christians.

My focus on this subject began when I read Romans 7 again recently, something that I have done many times. But this time I gained important new understanding about sin...

SIN IS ADDICTION!!!

Romans 7:7-13, " What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? Far from it! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin came to life, and I died; and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me, and through it, killed me. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? Far from it! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by bringing about my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful."

Let's compare this to an addiction such as alcohol addiction. Suppose there is a force within me that compels me to consume alcohol to the point that my health is affected. For other people, simply having a glass of wine is not detrimental, but for me, once I have that drink, some force within me takes over, compelling me to continue drinking to my own destruction. There may be laws (or just well-meaning advice) that tell me not to consume too much alcohol (the law) but what is my reaction? I want more! I think to myself, No law or person can tell me what to do! So, it is the power within me -- sin -- that is compelling me to continue to do something that will destroy me. Is the law or the advice wrong? Of course not. But it becomes my enemy, and increases my desire.

To paraphrase... "I would not have known about excessive drinking if the Law and/or good advice had not said, “You shall not drink excessively.” But sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me the overwhelming desire to drink more ... this commandment and/or advice, which was to result in preserving my health and life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me, and through it, killed me. So then, the Law is good, and the advice is well-meaning and good."

Therefore did that which is good advice and/or the law become a cause of death for me? Far from it! It is not the law or the advice that is killing me,. Rather it is sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by bringing about my death through that which is good, so that through the law and advice sin would become utterly sinful."

Continuing on...

Romans 7:14-25, "For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold into bondage to sin. For I do not understand what I am doing; for I am not practicing what I want to do, but I do the very thing I hate. However, if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, that the Law is good. But now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I do the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin that dwells in me.

I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully agree with the law of God in the inner person, but I see a different law in the parts of my body waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin, the law which is in my body’s parts. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin."

THIS IS THE CRITICAL PASSAGE ABOUT WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY ABOUT SIN BEING AN ADDICTION!

"I am fleshly, sold into bondage to sin. For I do not understand what I am doing; for I am not practicing what I want to do, but I do the very thing I hate." Is there a better description anywhere of addiction??? I am a slave to what controls me!!! I don't want to feed my addiction, but it controls me from within, waging war against why I know to be best for me. It has me as its prisoner! I am helpless before the control which is in my body parts!

There it is!!! Sin is a force within me that controls my behavior! Even though I know how I should behave -- how I want to behave -- I am helpless before the internal force that controls my behavior!!! While I and other Christians sin -- it is unavoidable -- the power of sin does not control us. We make mistakes, but they are done by accident. Through the power of the Holy Spirit, we are not controlled by sin.

Thankfully, there is a greater power than the addicting sin within me: the grace of God in Jesus Christ. SIN DOES NOT CONTROL US!!!

That is the difference between a Christian who sins and an unsaved person. Sin doesn't control us!

 

[Robert Pate]

I have been focusing on sin recently and particularly how it applies to Christians.

My focus on this subject began when I read Romans 7 again recently, something that I have done many times. But this time I gained important new understanding about sin...

SIN IS ADDICTION!!!

Romans 7:7-13, " What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? Far from it! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin came to life, and I died; and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me, and through it, killed me. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? Far from it! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by bringing about my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful."

Let's compare this to an addiction such as alcohol addiction. Suppose there is a force within me that compels me to consume alcohol to the point that my health is affected. For other people, simply having a glass of wine is not detrimental, but for me, once I have that drink, some force within me takes over, compelling me to continue drinking to my own destruction. There may be laws (or just well-meaning advice) that tell me not to consume too much alcohol (the law) but what is my reaction? I want more! I think to myself, No law or person can tell me what to do! So, it is the power within me -- sin -- that is compelling me to continue to do something that will destroy me. Is the law or the advice wrong? Of course not. But it becomes my enemy, and increases my desire.

To paraphrase... "I would not have known about excessive drinking if the Law and/or good advice had not said, “You shall not drink excessively.” But sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me the overwhelming desire to drink more ... this commandment and/or advice, which was to result in preserving my health and life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me, and through it, killed me. So then, the Law is good, and the advice is well-meaning and good."

Therefore did that which is good advice and/or the law become a cause of death for me? Far from it! It is not the law or the advice that is killing me,. Rather it is sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by bringing about my death through that which is good, so that through the law and advice sin would become utterly sinful."

Continuing on...

Romans 7:14-25, "For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold into bondage to sin. For I do not understand what I am doing; for I am not practicing what I want to do, but I do the very thing I hate. However, if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, that the Law is good. But now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I do the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin that dwells in me.

I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully agree with the law of God in the inner person, but I see a different law in the parts of my body waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin, the law which is in my body’s parts. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin."

THIS IS THE CRITICAL PASSAGE ABOUT WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY ABOUT SIN BEING AN ADDICTION!

"I am fleshly, sold into bondage to sin. For I do not understand what I am doing; for I am not practicing what I want to do, but I do the very thing I hate." Is there a better description anywhere of addiction??? I am a slave to what controls me!!! I don't want to feed my addiction, but it controls me from within, waging war against why I know to be best for me. It has me as its prisoner! I am helpless before the control which is in my body parts!

There it is!!! Sin is a force within me that controls my behavior! Even though I know how I should behave -- how I want to behave -- I am helpless before the internal force that controls my behavior!!! While I and other Christians sin -- it is unavoidable -- the power of sin does not control us. We make mistakes, but they are done by accident. Through the power of the Holy Spirit, we are not controlled by sin.

Thankfully, there is a greater power than the addicting sin within me: the grace of God in Jesus Christ. SIN DOES NOT CONTROL US!!!

That is the difference between a Christian who sins and an unsaved person. Sin doesn't control us!

Yes, sin is an addiction. Once you get hooked, you are hooked. 80% of the people that commit adultery have to do it again. Lying, stealing, cheating are all addictions of the flesh. Many think that the law is the answer to their sin problem, but the law actually promotes more sin, Romans 7:8.

The solution is to be free from the law. Christians are free from the law because Jesus fulfilled it then abolished it. This is why Paul wrote, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes" Romans 10:4. Jesus wants us to be free from the law so that we can be free from sin.

 

[JLB]

That is the difference between a Christian who sins and an unsaved person. Sin doesn't control us!

Thanks for this post, you did a good job of emphasizing some important things Paul was teaching in which we can all benefit.


Notice after Paul reveals this important things in Romans 7, he concludes that the answer for the sin dwelling in our flesh is to put its lustful cravings to death, by living our life according to the Spirit, rather than living our life according to the flesh.


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

Those who are in Christ, must learn to live a life that is set apart from this world, and to sow (invest our time) to the Spirit; the things the Spirit desires us to partake of.


For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:5-6


Christians who live according to the flesh do so, because they constantly set their minds on things of the flesh, seeking to gratify its lustful cravings (addictions).



Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13



Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:12-14


If the members of our body are being used to read the Bible, pray, serve others, work to support our family and Church, then we are sing the members of our body for righteousness, things that are right in God’s eyes.


If we are using the members of our body to search for porn and evil things to look at and be involved in, then we will fulfill the works of the flesh.


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21

 

[jaybo]

Yes, sin is an addiction. Once you get hooked, you are hooked. 80% of the people that commit adultery have to do it again. Lying, stealing, cheating are all addictions of the flesh. Many think that the law is the answer to their sin problem, but the law actually promotes more sin, Romans 7:8.

The solution is to be free from the law. Christians are free from the law because Jesus fulfilled it then abolished it. This is why Paul wrote, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes" Romans 10:4. Jesus wants us to be free from the law so that we can be free from sin.

Christians are free from the addiction to sin. The law is the standard to be met, which is the motivation of the addicting force -- sin -- to rebel. So it is the reaction to the law that kills.

Christians will sin, but they are not addicted to it. They are not driven by an internal evil force, they are guided by the Holy Spirit. A Christian, being human, will make an error, but then will repent because s/he realizes that they have done something wrong. A non-Christian will continue to sin and not repent, because they are driven by an internal force over which they have no control. In the worst case, they think the sinful behavior is okay.

 

[Tenchi]

THIS IS THE CRITICAL PASSAGE ABOUT WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY ABOUT SIN BEING AN ADDICTION!

"I am fleshly, sold into bondage to sin. For I do not understand what I am doing; for I am not practicing what I want to do, but I do the very thing I hate." Is there a better description anywhere of addiction??? I am a slave to what controls me!!! I don't want to feed my addiction, but it controls me from within, waging war against why I know to be best for me. It has me as its prisoner! I am helpless before the control which is in my body parts!

A couple of things I would note:

1.) No one ever became more like Christ by contemplating sin. See 2 Corinthians 3:18, Hebrews 12:2-3 and Philippians 4:8.

2.) You're coming perilously close to making yourself a helpless victim of Sin. If every sinner is just operating under irresistible, sinful compulsion that has forced them to wicked deeds, what responsibility do they have for those deeds? If the sinner is a mere prisoner to the control of their bodily impulses, and their body is the creation of God, isn't God, then, responsible for their sin? How can God hold the sinner responsible for a circumstance He brought into being?

God's word makes it very clear that the sinner, at least initially, "freely" chooses between right and wrong, suppressing the truth in unrighteousness when they choose to do evil. (Romans 1:18, 21; Deuteronomy 30) The choice to sin, however, establishes the beginning of a line of corresponding choices that, as each are made, bring a person more and more under the power of the sin they have chosen, until, often, addiction comes to pass. It is false, though, I believe, to think sin begins with addiction, which is to say irresistible compulsion; for such thinking absolves the sinner of their sin and the responsibility to do anything about it.

There is desire at the bottom of all sin, not mere mechanical compulsion. We can be conflicted in our desires, as Paul described in Romans 7, wanting moral good on one hand but the immediate gratification of sinful desire on the other. Generally, a person follows their strongest desire which, in a person not spiritually-regenerated by God, is always going to be a desire of the flesh. This is, really, what addiction is: A desire grown so strong, possessing such momentum of choice, force of habit, and even a biochemical power, that it overwhelms any pressure of conscience, any desire for moral good, that might arise.

While I and other Christians sin -- it is unavoidable -- the power of sin does not control us. We make mistakes, but they are done by accident.

This suspends responsibility for one's sin, doesn't it? Do we hold a child guilty and worthy of punishment when he, in the clumsiness of childhood, drops a glass of milk and breaks it? Do we punish the man who is in a car accident when there was nothing he could do to prevent it? No. If, then, the Christian sins by accident, if his sin is just an innocent mistake, why does God in His word condemn such sin and indicate that it breaks our fellowship with Him? See 1 Peter 3:19-12; Isaiah 59:2; Psalm 66:18.

Thankfully, there is a greater power than the addicting sin within me: the grace of God in Jesus Christ. SIN DOES NOT CONTROL US!!!

It is much more than that sin doesn't control us. We are "dead to sin and alive unto God" (Romans 6:11); for the born-again believer, the body of sin has been destroyed that, henceforth, we should not serve sin (Romans 6:6).

 

[jaybo]

I appreciate your comments. However, I believe what I wrote is true and accurate.

You wrote that God's word makes it very clear that the sinner, at least initially, "freely" chooses between right and wrong, suppressing the truth in unrighteousness when they choose to do evil. (Romans 1:18, 21; Deuteronomy 30) The choice to sin, however, establishes the beginning of a line of corresponding choices that, as each are made, bring a person more and more under the power of the sin they have chosen, until, often, addiction comes to pass. It is false, though, I believe, to think sin begins with addiction, which is to say irresistible compulsion; for such thinking absolves the sinner of their sin and the responsibility to do anything about it.

My response: it is true that the sinner, at least initially, "freely" chooses between right and wrong, suppressing the truth in unrighteousness when they choose to do evil. The choice to sin, however, establishes the beginning of a line of corresponding choices that, as each are made, bring a person more and more under the power of the sin they have chosen, until, often, addiction comes to pass. However, I have highlighted the word "often", because it is incorrect.

"ALL HAVE SINNED and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23. It doesn't say that anyone hasn't sinned. Why? Because sin is an additcion over which no person has control. It is not a choice.

You wrote: You're coming perilously close to making yourself a helpless victim of Sin. If every sinner is just operating under irresistible, sinful compulsion that has forced them to wicked deeds, what responsibility do they have for those deeds?

My response: Since I am a Christian, the addiction to sin doesn't apply to me (or any other Christian). However, as Paul pointed out in Romans 7, those who are still "in the flesh" cannot control their sin. Romans 7:14-15, "For we know that the law is spiritual—but I am unspiritual, sold into slavery to sin. For I don’t understand what I am doing. For I do not do what I want—instead, I do what I hate." Why did Paul write this? Because in an unsaved state, a person is a helpless victim of sin.

You wrote: If their body is the creation of God, isn't God, then, responsible for their sin?

My response: No. Adam is responsible for their sin. He and Eve disobeyed God and brought sin into the world. Romans 5:12-13a, "So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned— for before the law was given, sin was in the world."

You wrote: It is false, though, I believe, to think sin begins with addiction, which is to say irresistible compulsion; for such thinking absolves the sinner of their sin and the responsibility to do anything about it."

My response: people are born addicted to sin. Although people know what is correct behavior they choose sin. "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth by their unrighteousness, because what can be known about God is plain to them because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image resembling mortal human beings or birds or four-footed animals[as] or reptiles." Romans 1:18-23 Why were did they became futile in their thoughts and why were their senseless hearts darkened? Because they were addicted! They had no choice. They inherited sin addiction from Adam, the same as substance abuse can be passed on from parent to child.

You wrote, "Generally, a person follows their strongest desire which, in a person not spiritually-regenerated by God, is always going to be a desire of the flesh."

My response: Yes! However, there is no "generally" about it. All people (with one exception) are born with the compulsion to sin. No person except Jesus has been born free of the addiction to sin -- which is why all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23) As Paul pointed out in Romans 7, people my have the desire not to sin, but they are helpless to avoid it. "For I don’t understand what I am doing. For I do not do what I want—instead, I do what I hate. But if I do what I don’t want, I agree that the law is good. But now it is no longer me doing it, but sin that lives in me. For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For I want to do the good, but I cannot do it.] For I do not do the good I want, but I do the very evil I do not want! [ADDICTION!!! Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer me doing it but sin that lives in me. (Romans 7:16-20) There is an irresistible force in the person that takes command and overrules their desire!

You wrote: If, then, the Christian sins by accident, if his sin is just an innocent mistake, why does God in His word condemn such sin and indicate that it breaks our fellowship with Him?

My response: if a Christian sins by accident, then He is forgiven because He is in Christ. That is diametrically different from a non-Christian, who has no control over the sin in them. People make mistakes, but no Christian sins willfully (if they are truly a Christian). God points out the sin but doesn't condemn the (Christian) person.

Also, quoting from the Old Testament (even if it is repeated in the New Testament) doesn't establish New Testament doctrine.

It is only Christians who are dead to sin; the unsaved are not. Otherwise, Christ died in vain. Non-Christians are alive to sin. Sin lives in them and controls them. "For I don’t understand what I am doing. For I do not do what I want—instead, I do what I hate. But if I do what I don’t want, I agree that the law is good. But now it is no longer me doing it, but sin that lives in me. [Sin is in control! That is addiction!] For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For I want to do the good, but I cannot do it. [Sin is in control! That is addiction!] For I do not do the good I want, but I do the very evil I do not want! [Sin is in control! That is addiction!] Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer me doing it but sin that lives in me." Romans 7:15-20

Again and again, Paul clearly shows that sin, not the person, is in control! That is the definition of addiction!

Claiming that there is desire at the bottom of all sin, not mere mechanical compulsion, is to deny what Paul wrote. Again, "For I want to do the good [desire], but I cannot do it [compulsion]. For I do not do the good I want, but I do the very evil I do not want! Compulsion overcomes desire!

 

[Tenchi]

My response: it is true that the sinner, at least initially, "freely" chooses between right and wrong, suppressing the truth in unrighteousness when they choose to do evil. The choice to sin, however, establishes the beginning of a line of corresponding choices that, as each are made, bring a person more and more under the power of the sin they have chosen, until, often, addiction comes to pass. However, I have highlighted the word "often", because it is incorrect.

"ALL HAVE SINNED and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23. It doesn't say that anyone hasn't sinned. Why? Because sin is an additcion over which no person has control. It is not a choice.

I'm afraid what you're doing here is both making a non sequitur and performing eisegesis. It just doesn't follow (non sequitur) that, because all have sinned, they have not chosen to do so. For an alternative example, imagine the members of a baseball team who have all played baseball. Does it follow that, because they have all played baseball, they haven't chosen to do so, that they were, instead, forced by an addiction to baseball to play baseball? No. I don't know of any baseball team about which this is true. How about a group of people traveling to Spain from England in an airplane: Does it follow that because they have all flown through the air that, therefore, they all were forced by an addiction to flying to do so? Obviously not. That all in a given circumstance have done something doesn't automatically mean they had no choice but to do so.

Also, it is inserting into the text (eisegesis) of Paul's letter to the Roman believers that sin was the product of an addiction and therefore not a choice. This is your idea, not Paul's, which is why you're having to put it into what he wrote rather than draw it out of (exegesis) what he wrote.

My response: Since I am a Christian, the addiction to sin doesn't apply to me (or any other Christian).

But you weren't born a Christian from the womb. At one time, just like everybody else, you were an unregenerate sinner. At least in retrospect, your "sin is addiction" view does apply - as it must to all other unsaved people, too.

However, as Paul pointed out in Romans 7, those who are still "in the flesh" cannot control their sin.

??? Daily I see non-believers all around me refraining from sin. They stop smoking, or looking at porn, or drinking booze, or cheating on their spouse, or doing illicit drugs, and so on. It just doesn't comport with reality, then, to say that those who are in the flesh cannot control their sin. What Paul actually wrote in Romans 8:8, though, was that they cannot please God, which is not the same thing as "cannot control their sin," which they do all the time.

Why did Paul write this? Because in an unsaved state, a person is a helpless victim of sin.

But they aren't. I know several unsaved guys in various Twelve-Step programs who've halted drinking and using drugs - a couple of them for over decade. That the unsaved can cease their sin is, at least in part, why Paul never wrote that unregenerate sinners are "helpless victims of sin." Again, read Romans 1:18.

You wrote: If their body is the creation of God, isn't God, then, responsible for their sin?

My response: No. Adam is responsible for their sin. He and Eve disobeyed God and brought sin into the world. Romans 5:12-13a, "So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned— for before the law was given, sin was in the world."

Does this verse say that, through Adam, sin infected all of humanity, like a virus, forcing them to do evil? No. And the verse offers nothing to counter the idea that, if God made Adam and his capacity for sin, then God is ultimately responsible for Adam's sin. (I don't believe God is responsible, but not for the reason you've offered.)

My response: people are born addicted to sin. Although people know what is correct behavior they choose sin.

These two statements aren't synonymous, nor does the latter statement prove the former. As I've pointed out, unsaved people refrain from sin quite often. How, then, can you say they are addicted to sin because they sometimes choose to sin? Even born-again people do this, as Paul described of himself in Romans 7.

Why were did they became futile in their thoughts and why were their senseless hearts darkened? Because they were addicted! They had no choice.

This is just more eisegesis. You are imposing your idea on the text rather than drawing it from what is written in the text. Paul nowhere in the passage from Romans 1 indicated that those who knew God and refused to glorify Him did so because they had no choice but to do so. The description of "suppressing the truth in unrighteousness" conveys a sense of willful action, a choice made again and again by people to push down their innate knowledge of God. Paul does not even imply in the passage that this is done by the coercive power of sin, indicating instead that these truth-suppressing people are entirely responsible for their suppression and thus guilty before God (vs. 20), which could only be the case if they could actually choose whether or not to do so.

As Paul pointed out in Romans 7, people my have the desire not to sin, but they are helpless to avoid it.

But this just isn't true. See above.

My response: if a Christian sins by accident, then He is forgiven because He is in Christ. That is diametrically different from a non-Christian, who has no control over the sin in them.

??? My point still holds, though. If the non-Christian is only sinning by accident, by virtue of a circumstance beyond their control, how can they be condemned for doing so?

Also, quoting from the Old Testament (even if it is repeated in the New Testament) doesn't establish New Testament doctrine.

Sometimes it does.

Non-Christians are alive to sin.

But so was Paul, a born-again believer, as he explained in Romans 7. Your thinking is very confused...

Again and again, Paul clearly shows that sin, not the person, is in control! That is the definition of addiction!

Paul is describing a general state-of-affairs, not an always-true situation. As I've said, I know many non-believers who refrain from sin and even recover from addiction. At times, sin may gain control over the unsaved person - just as it does to Christians - but very few people live in unmitigated, wholesale indulgence of sin. Such people end up in prison and/or dead.

Claiming that there is desire at the bottom of all sin, not mere mechanical compulsion, is to deny what Paul wrote. Again, "For I want to do the good [desire], but I cannot do it [compulsion]. For I do not do the good I want, but I do the very evil I do not want! Compulsion overcomes desire!

??? I know of no one, saved or unsaved, who does not desire in some way to sin. There is "pleasure in sin, for a season" or we would not find it so attractive. Paul wrote of the unsaved that their "god was their belly (or fleshly appetite)" and of wicked men who were "slaves of their own appetites" (Philippians 3:19; Romans 16:18); James wrote that a man who is tempted into sin is tempted by his own lust (James 1:14). It is, then, the desire to gratify and satisfy the impulses of fleshly appetite, not some mechanical compulsion, that entices people into sin.

 

[jaybo]

I'm afraid what you're doing here is both making a non sequitur and performing eisegesis. It just doesn't follow (non sequitur) that, because all have sinned, they have not chosen to do so. For an alternative example, imagine the members of a baseball team who have all played baseball. Does it follow that, because they have all played baseball, they haven't chosen to do so, that they were, instead, forced by an addiction to baseball to play baseball? No. I don't know of any baseball team about which this is true. How about a group of people traveling to Spain from England in an airplane: Does it follow that because they have all flown through the air that, therefore, they all were forced by an addiction to flying to do so? Obviously not. That all in a given circumstance have done something doesn't automatically mean they had no choice but to do so.

Also, it is inserting into the text (eisegesis) of Paul's letter to the Roman believers that sin was the product of an addiction and therefore not a choice. This is your idea, not Paul's, which is why you're having to put it into what he wrote rather than draw it out of (exegesis) what he wrote.



But you weren't born a Christian from the womb. At one time, just like everybody else, you were an unregenerate sinner. At least in retrospect, your "sin is addiction" view does apply - as it must to all other unsaved people, too.



??? Daily I see non-believers all around me refraining from sin. They stop smoking, or looking at porn, or drinking booze, or cheating on their spouse, or doing illicit drugs, and so on. It just doesn't comport with reality, then, to say that those who are in the flesh cannot control their sin. What Paul actually wrote in Romans 8:8, though, was that they cannot please God, which is not the same thing as "cannot control their sin," which they do all the time.



But they aren't. I know several unsaved guys in various Twelve-Step programs who've halted drinking and using drugs - a couple of them for over decade. That the unsaved can cease their sin is, at least in part, why Paul never wrote that unregenerate sinners are "helpless victims of sin." Again, read Romans 1:18.



Does this verse say that, through Adam, sin infected all of humanity, like a virus, forcing them to do evil? No. And the verse offers nothing to counter the idea that, if God made Adam and his capacity for sin, then God is ultimately responsible for Adam's sin. (I don't believe God is responsible, but not for the reason you've offered.)



These two statements aren't synonymous, nor does the latter statement prove the former. As I've pointed out, unsaved people refrain from sin quite often. How, then, can you say they are addicted to sin because they sometimes choose to sin? Even born-again people do this, as Paul described of himself in Romans 7.



This is just more eisegesis. You are imposing your idea on the text rather than drawing it from what is written in the text. Paul nowhere in the passage from Romans 1 indicated that those who knew God and refused to glorify Him did so because they had no choice but to do so. The description of "suppressing the truth in unrighteousness" conveys a sense of willful action, a choice made again and again by people to push down their innate knowledge of God. Paul does not even imply in the passage that this is done by the coercive power of sin, indicating instead that these truth-suppressing people are entirely responsible for their suppression and thus guilty before God (vs. 20), which could only be the case if they could actually choose whether or not to do so.



But this just isn't true. See above.



??? My point still holds, though. If the non-Christian is only sinning by accident, by virtue of a circumstance beyond their control, how can they be condemned for doing so?



Sometimes it does.



But so was Paul, a born-again believer, as he explained in Romans 7. Your thinking is very confused...



Paul is describing a general state-of-affairs, not an always-true situation. As I've said, I know many non-believers who refrain from sin and even recover from addiction. At times, sin may gain control over the unsaved person - just as it does to Christians - but very few people live in unmitigated, wholesale indulgence of sin. Such people end up in prison and/or dead.



??? I know of no one, saved or unsaved, who does not desire in some way to sin. There is "pleasure in sin, for a season" or we would not find it so attractive. Paul wrote of the unsaved that their "god was their belly (or fleshly appetite)" and of wicked men who were "slaves of their own appetites" (Philippians 3:19; Romans 16:18); James wrote that a man who is tempted into sin is tempted by his own lust (James 1:14). It is, then, the desire to gratify and satisfy the impulses of fleshly appetite, not some mechanical compulsion, that entices people into sin.

You wrote: It just doesn't follow (non sequitur) that, because all have sinned, they have not chosen to do so. [For an alternative example, imagine the members of a baseball team who have all played baseball. Does it follow that, because they have all played baseball, they haven't chosen to do so, that they were, instead, forced by an addiction to baseball to play baseball? No. I don't know of any baseball team about which this is true. How about a group of people traveling to Spain from England in an airplane: Does it follow that because they have all flown through the air that, therefore, they all were forced by an addiction to flying to do so? Obviously not.] That all in a given circumstance have done something doesn't automatically mean they had no choice but to do so.

My response: a) There is nothing that says that people have chosen to sin. Since all people are descended from Adam, all have the sin nature. It's not a matter of choice. b I am not going to respond to your examples of a baseball team and people flying in an airplane. They have no relevance.

You wrote: it is inserting into the text (eisegesis) of Paul's letter to the Roman believers that sin was the product of an addiction and therefore not a choice. This is your idea, not Paul's.

My response: Romans 7:8-10a, "But sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of wrong desires. For apart from the law, sin is dead. And I was once alive apart from the law, but with the coming of the commandment sin became alive and I died." Romans 7:13b, "But sin, so that it would be shown to be sin, produced death in me. Notice that this is nothing that a person does on their own. Sin produces all kinds of wrong desires within a person. Romans 7:15-17, "For I don’t understand what I am doing. For I do not do what I want—instead, I do what I hate. But if I do what I don’t want, I agree that the law is good. But now it is no longer me doing it, but sin that lives in me. There is no eisegesis here; these are Paul's words. He is clearly describing an irresistible force within a person. That is a perfect definition of addiction.

You wrote: At one time, just like everybody else, you were an unregenerate sinner. At least in retrospect, your "sin is addiction" view does apply - as it must to all other unsaved people, too.

My response: Thank you for agreeing with me! That is what I have been saying all along!

You wrote: Daily I see non-believers all around me refraining from sin. They stop smoking, or looking at porn, or drinking booze, or cheating on their spouse, or doing illicit drugs, and so on. It just doesn't comport with reality, then, to say that those who are in the flesh cannot control their sin.

My response: Matthew 1:21, "She will give birth to a son and you will name him Jesus because he will save his people from their sins." If non-believers can refrain from sinning, then they have no need for a Savior!
You wrote, "The description of "suppressing the truth in unrighteousness" conveys a sense of willful action, a choice made again and again by people to push down their innate knowledge of God. Paul does not even imply in the passage that this is done by the coercive power of sin.

My response: a choice made by people again and again is an excellent example of addiction, "the coercive power of sin". It is clearly the power of sin operating within them. Was God, by your reasoning, unjust by punishing these people?

You wrote: If the non-Christian is only sinning by accident, by virtue of a circumstance beyond their control, how can they be condemned for doing so?

My response: The non-Christian is not "sinning by accident". It is part of their sin nature that they inherited from Adam to do so. They are sinning because that is who they are! If a person does something by accident, that implies that they could choose not to behave in that manner. If a person could stop sinning on their own -- by their own choosing -- then there is no need for them to be saved from their sins. Non-Christians are compelled to continually sin.
You wrote: your thinking is very confused...

My reply: please refrain from personal attacks. They have no place in this or any other discussion.

continued below...

 

[jaybo]

You wrote: As I've said, I know many non-believers who refrain from sin and even recover from addiction. At times, sin may gain control over the unsaved person - just as it does to Christians - but very few people live in unmitigated, wholesale indulgence of sin. Such people end up in prison and/or dead.

My response: this is an excellent example of reductio ad absurdum. All non-believers are under the power of sin. That is fundamental Biblical doctrine. Romans 3:23-24, "For there is no distinction, for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But they are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."
You wrote: As I've pointed out, unsaved people refrain from sin quite often. How, then, can you say they are addicted to sin because they sometimes choose to sin? Even born-again people do this, as Paul described of himself in Romans 7.

My response: this is the equivalent of saying that someone who is addicted to alcohol or drugs don't do themall the time. But -- and this is important -- an addict cannot control their addiction. It is a force within them that hey cannot control. It's the exact same situation with sinning. An unredeemed cannot refrain from sinning! They are compelled to sin because of the force within them.

Romans 7:15-20, "For I don’t understand what I am doing. For I do not do what I want—instead, I do what I hate. But if I do what I don’t want, I agree that the law is good. But now it is no longer me doing it, but sin that lives in me. For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For I want to do the good, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but I do the very evil I do not want! Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer me doing it but sin that lives in me."

How can you not understand this? Paul is clearly explaining that there is a force within him that compels him to behave contrary to how he wants to behave. "it is no longer me doing it, but sin that lives in me" He is helpless before the force of sin operating within him. That is ADDICTION!

 

[Tenchi]

There is nothing that says that people have chosen to sin.

Oh?

Joshua 24:14-15 (NASB)
14 "Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD.
15 "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Deuteronomy 30:15-19 (NASB)
15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it.
17 "But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it.
19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Psalm 25:12 (NASB)
12 Who is the man who fears the LORD? He will instruct him in the way he should choose.

Proverbs 1:29 (NASB)
29 Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of the LORD.

Isaiah 65:12 (NASB)
12 I will destine you for the sword, And all of you will bow down to the slaughter. Because I called, but you did not answer; I spoke, but you did not hear. And you did evil in My sight And chose that in which I did not delight."

b I am not going to respond to your examples of a baseball team and people flying in an airplane. They have no relevance.

In actuality, they do: My examples demonstrate the fact that all participating in a thing does not equate to all not having a choice to do so, which you say is the case with humanity and sin.

My response: Romans 7:8-10a, "But sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of wrong desires. For apart from the law, sin is dead. And I was once alive apart from the law, but with the coming of the commandment sin became alive and I died." Romans 7:13b, "But sin, so that it would be shown to be sin, produced death in me. Notice that this is nothing that a person does on their own. Sin produces all kinds of wrong desires within a person.

Sin is not some force, some power floating around overcoming people and forcing them to do evil things. No, sin is the evil that people do, not some force making them do evil.

James 4:17 (NASB)
17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

1 John 3:4 (NASB)
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

See? Sin is something a person does, it isn't a power compelling them to sin.

Romans 7:7-9 (NASB)
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

Here, Paul points out that the Law describes what sin is, what is morally wrong, and so ought not to be done (like coveting). Implicit in this is that sin is doing what one knows is morally wrong. I commit sin, in other words, by disobeying God's law; sin isn't a compelling force making me disobedient.

8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.

Paul has just explained that by "sin" he meant what the law of God has described as morally wrong, as disobedient to God's law. So, then, when God's law described coveting as contrary to God's law, the human impulse to rebellion toward God, to self-will, was provoked, causing a defiant proliferation of coveting (in Paul, at least). Paul had already described this impulse a few verse before:

[Romans 7:5 (NASB)
5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.

Here, Paul says that it is "sinful passions" of his flesh, not some power called "Sin" floating around and attacking people, that was provoked by God's law, producing "fruit for death" - that is, sin in people. ]

9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;

By the knowledge of the Law and the resulting arousal of the rebellious passions of his flesh, Paul fell into sin, reaping the "wages of sin," which is always death. (Romans 6:23)

There is, then, nothing in this passage that supports the idea that there is some Sin-force compelling folks to do evil. Rather, there is only the sinful passions of the flesh and the natural rebelliousness of human beings that bring them into sinful behavior.

There is no eisegesis here; these are Paul's words. He is clearly describing an irresistible force within a person. That is a perfect definition of addiction.

Nope. See above.

You wrote: At one time, just like everybody else, you were an unregenerate sinner. At least in retrospect, your "sin is addiction" view does apply - as it must to all other unsaved people, too.

My response: Thank you for agreeing with me! That is what I have been saying all along!

There is no agreement here, only my observation that your incorrect view does apply to the situation you denied that it did.

My response: Matthew 1:21, "She will give birth to a son and you will name him Jesus because he will save his people from their sins." If non-believers can refrain from sinning, then they have no need for a Savior!

??? This is another non sequitur. Does it follow that because I can recover from some sicknesses or injuries on my own that therefore I can do so with all sickness and injuries that may afflict me? Obviously not. My ability to heal from a mildly-cut finger, or recover from the common cold unaided by a doctor, does not mean that if my leg is cut off in a car accident, I should just hop on home, spraying blood everywhere, certain I'll get better on my own.

In the same way, that I can refrain from some sin doesn't mean that I am not stained by other sin that I commit and so need the cleansing of Christ's shed blood and God's forgiveness of my sin.

James 2:10 (NASB)
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

In any case, the fact remains that lost people many times refrain from sin. Your ideas about sin don't account for this at all.

 

[Tenchi]

My response: a choice made by people again and again is an excellent example of addiction, "the coercive power of sin". It is clearly the power of sin operating within them.

No, it merely demonstrates that the choice to sin, oft-repeated, grows habitual and increasingly hard to resist.

My response: The non-Christian is not "sinning by accident". It is part of their sin nature that they inherited from Adam to do so. They are sinning because that is who they are!

Hang on. You said sinners sin because Sin is making them sin. Now, though, you're saying that the cause of their sin is within themselves, in their own nature, not some force imposing itself upon them. Which is it?

If a person could stop sinning on their own -- by their own choosing -- then there is no need for them to be saved from their sins. Non-Christians are compelled to continually sin.
You wrote: your thinking is very confused...

My reply: please refrain from personal attacks. They have no place in this or any other discussion.

You seem to be subtly shifting the goalposts here in your wording...

I didn't attack you personally, I simply described the content of your thoughts expressed in this thread.

My response: this is an excellent example of reductio ad absurdum.

Well, if you're going to make such an assertion, you ought to demonstrate how, exactly.

All non-believers are under the power of sin.

No, they are under the power of the World, the Flesh and the devil (Ephesians 2:1-3). Being in such bondage produces sin.

My response: this is the equivalent of saying that someone who is addicted to alcohol or drugs don't do themall the time. But -- and this is important -- an addict cannot control their addiction.

But this just isn't true. As I said, I know many people who have thrown off addictions of various sorts who weren't born-again.

An unredeemed cannot refrain from sinning! They are compelled to sin because of the force within them.

Repeating yourself doesn't make your argument less faulty. As reality clearly reveals, the unredeemed refrain from sinning sometimes just as much as a born-again believer does.

Romans 7:15-20, "For I don’t understand what I am doing. For I do not do what I want—instead, I do what I hate. But if I do what I don’t want, I agree that the law is good. But now it is no longer me doing it, but sin that lives in me. For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For I want to do the good, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but I do the very evil I do not want! Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer me doing it but sin that lives in me."

And what did Paul say was the sin within himself?

Romans 7:5 (NASB)
5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.

How can you not understand this? Paul is clearly explaining that there is a force within him that compels him to behave contrary to how he wants to behave. "it is no longer me doing it, but sin that lives in me" He is helpless before the force of sin operating within him. That is ADDICTION!

??? You need to read Romans 6 and Romans 8. Yikes. And consider carefully what I wrote above.

 

[jaybo]

Oh?

Joshua 24:14-15 (NASB)
14 "Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD.
15 "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Deuteronomy 30:15-19 (NASB)
15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it.
17 "But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it.
19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Psalm 25:12 (NASB)
12 Who is the man who fears the LORD? He will instruct him in the way he should choose.

Proverbs 1:29 (NASB)
29 Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of the LORD.

Isaiah 65:12 (NASB)
12 I will destine you for the sword, And all of you will bow down to the slaughter. Because I called, but you did not answer; I spoke, but you did not hear. And you did evil in My sight And chose that in which I did not delight."



In actuality, they do: My examples demonstrate the fact that all participating in a thing does not equate to all not having a choice to do so, which you say is the case with humanity and sin.



Sin is not some force, some power floating around overcoming people and forcing them to do evil things. No, sin is the evil that people do, not some force making them do evil.

James 4:17 (NASB)
17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

1 John 3:4 (NASB)
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

See? Sin is something a person does, it isn't a power compelling them to sin.

Romans 7:7-9 (NASB)
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

Here, Paul points out that the Law describes what sin is, what is morally wrong, and so ought not to be done (like coveting). Implicit in this is that sin is doing what one knows is morally wrong. I commit sin, in other words, by disobeying God's law; sin isn't a compelling force making me disobedient.

8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.

Paul has just explained that by "sin" he meant what the law of God has described as morally wrong, as disobedient to God's law. So, then, when God's law described coveting as contrary to God's law, the human impulse to rebellion toward God, to self-will, was provoked, causing a defiant proliferation of coveting (in Paul, at least). Paul had already described this impulse a few verse before:

[Romans 7:5 (NASB)
5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.

Here, Paul says that it is "sinful passions" of his flesh, not some power called "Sin" floating around and attacking people, that was provoked by God's law, producing "fruit for death" - that is, sin in people. ]

9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;

By the knowledge of the Law and the resulting arousal of the rebellious passions of his flesh, Paul fell into sin, reaping the "wages of sin," which is always death. (Romans 6:23)

There is, then, nothing in this passage that supports the idea that there is some Sin-force compelling folks to do evil. Rather, there is only the sinful passions of the flesh and the natural rebelliousness of human beings that bring them into sinful behavior.



Nope. See above.



There is no agreement here, only my observation that your incorrect view does apply to the situation you denied that it did.



??? This is another non sequitur. Does it follow that because I can recover from some sicknesses or injuries on my own that therefore I can do so with all sickness and injuries that may afflict me? Obviously not. My ability to heal from a mildly-cut finger, or recover from the common cold unaided by a doctor, does not mean that if my leg is cut off in a car accident, I should just hop on home, spraying blood everywhere, certain I'll get better on my own.

In the same way, that I can refrain from some sin doesn't mean that I am not stained by other sin that I commit and so need the cleansing of Christ's shed blood and God's forgiveness of my sin.

James 2:10 (NASB)
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

In any case, the fact remains that lost people many times refrain from sin. Your ideas about sin don't account for this at all.

Anyone can go through the Bible and selectively choose quotes that "prove" their predetermined doctrine.

Here is what Paul wrote concerning sin to the Romans: "What shall we say then? Are we to remain in sin so that grace may increase? Absolutely not! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that as many as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may live a new life.

For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will certainly also be united in the likeness of his resurrection. We know that our old man was crucified with him so that the body of sin would no longer dominate us, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. (For someone who has died has been freed from sin.)

Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that since Christ has been raised from the dead, he is never going to die again; death no longer has mastery over him. For the death he died, he died to sin once for all, but the life he lives, he lives to God. So you too consider yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus."

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its desires, and do not present your members to sin as instruments to be used for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who are alive from the dead and your members to God as instruments to be used for righteousness. For sin will have no mastery over you, because you are not under law but under grace." Romans 6:1-14

Why does Paul write about being in slavery to sin? A slave has no freedom! S/he cannot choose what to do but must obey their master. In this case, sin is the master that must be obeyed! There is no better description of addiction! The person has no control over their behavior. S/he must obey; there is nor freedom of choice.

How can you not understand that???

Continuing on in Romans: "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Absolutely not! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves to sin, you obeyed from the heart that pattern of teaching you were entrusted to, and having been freed from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness. (I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh.) For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free with regard to righteousness.

So what benefit did you then reap from those things that you are now ashamed of? For the end of those things is death. But now, freed from sin and enslaved to God, you have your benefit leading to sanctification, and the end is eternal life. For the payoff of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

 

[jaybo]

continued...

By definition, a slave has no choice. S/he is compelled to obey their master. Paul clearly wrote that a people are slaves to sin. They have no choice but to obey!!! They are compelled by the sin nature that they inherited from Adam. That is what I mean by addiction. Just as a person has no control over their alcohol or heroin addiction, so a person who has not been born again has no control over their behavior. They are compelled to sin!
That is the primary difference between a Christian and a non-Christian. Both sin, but a Christian has the ability to resist the influence of sin and change their behavior, where as a non-Christian does not have that ability. S/he is enslaved to sin! If that was not the case -- if people could resist sin's power -- then there is no need for a Savior.

 

[Tenchi]

Anyone can go through the Bible and selectively choose quotes that "prove" their predetermined doctrine.

Including you, right? You're part of "anyone", yes?

Why does Paul write about being in slavery to sin?

I think a better question is: Why is he writing such things to born-again believers?

A slave has no freedom! S/he cannot choose what to do but must obey their master. In this case, sin is the master that must be obeyed!

Romans 6:16-19 (NASB)
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

Paul here explained that the believer's slavery to sin was a choice. The believer obeyed the impulses of his flesh, the habits and thinking of the "old man" (vs. 6), the person he was apart from God, and so made himself a slave to sinful living. The whole of Romans 6 is Paul arguing for why such a choice was completely contrary to the truth of the born-again believer's union with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection. But just as the believer chose slavery to sin, Paul explained, they could choose slavery to God instead (vs. 1-2, 12, 14) There is none of the addictive compulsion to sin you've argued for described in Romans 6 at all. Instead, Romans 6 is declaring the way to a life of liberty from sin!

S/he cannot choose what to do but must obey their master. In this case, sin is the master that must be obeyed! There is no better description of addiction! The person has no control over their behavior. S/he must obey; there is nor freedom of choice.

How can you not understand that???

I'm not the one having comprehension problems... See above (and my last few posts to this thread).

By definition, a slave has no choice. S/he is compelled to obey their master.

Big font and red text color do not make your assertion true. There is even an instance in the NT where the slave, Onesimus, had run away from his master (Philemon 1:10-18) which demonstrates that being a slave did not absolutely entail the utter absence of all choice, or the power to act independently of one's Master. In fact, runaway slaves were not uncommon in Paul's time. What, then, of the idea that slavery necessarily means total compulsion? It doesn't in Romans 6, nor in the secular sphere of Paul's time.

That is what I mean by addiction. Just as a person has no control over their alcohol or heroin addiction, so a person who has not been born again has no control over their behavior. They are compelled to sin!

Yes, you've said this repeatedly but without ever demonstrating how this is so when non-believers refrain from sin all the time and even escape various harmful addictions.

That is the primary difference between a Christian and a non-Christian.

Good grief. No, it's not. The primary difference is that the Christian has the life of Christ dwelling them, reconciling them to God, and the non-Christian does not. (Colossians 1:10-12-22; Romans 5:10; 2 Corinthians 5:18; 1 John 5:11-12; John 3:36)

Both sin, but a Christian has the ability to resist the influence of sin and change their behavior, where as a non-Christian does not have that ability.

But they do. As I've pointed out, non-believers are never as wicked as they could be but restrain themselves from sin all the time. That you appear to deny this is bizarre...

if people could resist sin's power -- then there is no need for a Savior.

Well, as I've already explained, this is a big non sequitur.

 

[jaybo]

Including you, right? You're part of "anyone", yes?



I think a better question is: Why is he writing such things to born-again believers?



Romans 6:16-19 (NASB)
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

Paul here explained that the believer's slavery to sin was a choice. The believer obeyed the impulses of his flesh, the habits and thinking of the "old man" (vs. 6), the person he was apart from God, and so made himself a slave to sinful living. The whole of Romans 6 is Paul arguing for why such a choice was completely contrary to the truth of the born-again believer's union with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection. But just as the believer chose slavery to sin, Paul explained, they could choose slavery to God instead (vs. 1-2, 12, 14) There is none of the addictive compulsion to sin you've argued for described in Romans 6 at all. Instead, Romans 6 is declaring the way to a life of liberty from sin!



I'm not the one having comprehension problems... See above (and my last few posts to this thread).



Big font and red text color do not make your assertion true. There is even an instance in the NT where the slave, Onesimus, had run away from his master (Philemon 1:10-18) which demonstrates that being a slave did not absolutely entail the utter absence of all choice, or the power to act independently of one's Master. In fact, runaway slaves were not uncommon in Paul's time. What, then, of the idea that slavery necessarily means total compulsion? It doesn't in Romans 6, nor in the secular sphere of Paul's time.



Yes, you've said this repeatedly but without ever demonstrating how this is so when non-believers refrain from sin all the time and even escape various harmful addictions.



Good grief. No, it's not. The primary difference is that the Christian has the life of Christ dwelling them, reconciling them to God, and the non-Christian does not. (Colossians 1:10-12-22; Romans 5:10; 2 Corinthians 5:18; 1 John 5:11-12; John 3:36)



But they do. As I've pointed out, non-believers are never as wicked as they could be but restrain themselves from sin all the time. That you appear to deny this is bizarre...



Well, as I've already explained, this is a big non sequitur.

Romans 6:16, " Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?"

A slave has no choice! If you are a slave to sin, then you have no choice but to obey it. Until you understand this truth, there is no point in further discussion.

"I'm not the one having comprehension problems" is a) a personal attack. Read the ToS! Next time I will report you.

 

[Tenchi]

"I'm not the one having comprehension problems" is a) a personal attack. Read the ToS! Next time I will report you.

??? You're the one who insinuated I was not comprehending! You ought, then, to report yourself. Sheesh.

 

[Tenchi]

A slave has no choice! If you are a slave to sin, then you have no choice but to obey it. Until you understand this truth, there is no point in further discussion.

I figured you'd eventually arrive at this place. When your argument runs dry, accuse your opponent of not understanding, thereby justifying a halt to further discussion. It's a rather...obvious tactic of deflection. You'll notice, though, that although you've said I have comprehension issues, I have not cried, "Personal attack!" and threatened to report you.

 

[jaybo]

I figured you'd eventually arrive at this place. When your argument runs dry, accuse your opponent of not understanding, thereby justifying a halt to further discussion. It's a rather...obvious tactic of deflection. You'll notice, though, that although you've said I have comprehension issues, I have not cried, "Personal attack!" and threatened to report you.

When you read and understand this section of Romans, we will continue the discussion.

"Romans 7:15-20, "For I don’t understand what I am doing. For I do not do what I want—instead, I do what I hate. But if I do what I don’t want, I agree that the law is good. But now it is no longer me doing it, but sin that lives in me. For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For I want to do the good, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but I do the very evil I do not want! Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer me doing it but sin that lives in me."

 

[Tenchi]

When you read and understand this section of Romans, we will continue the discussion.

As I've demonstrated, I understand it very well. I just don't accept your understanding of it.