Sinless Perfection; The Unsustainable Command?

[Josef]

Hey All,

John 8:10-11 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Do we believe that this woman never sinned again?

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Is this a command or a suggestion?

I submit that it is a command.

I further submit that I fundamentally cannot keep this command in a continuous ongoing manner.

I try to love God with everything I've got and others like myself.

But I still sin.
To say that I never sin would be a lie; a sin within the denial.

Some here in these forums say that my admission of sin makes me unrepentant. Which means, I am still lost in my sins.

I believe what John said.
I am forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness.

When I make a mistake and sin, that sin is part of the "all unrighteousness."

I admit that I sin because it is true.
I admit through shame, not boasting.
My admission keeps my relationship with God honest, and makes me free.

I like being free.

To keep that freedom I will continually try to keep Jesus' command.
I know I will fail from time to time.
But I will not let failure keep me from trying.

And that ladies and gentlemen is the struggle.

If any of you don't have to deal with this, you are either truly blessed in a special way(and I hope that's the case), or you are in denial of the truth.

Only you know which it is for sure.

I know what I am for sure.

I am a sinner saved by grace, through faith, in Jesus.

I need God's grace continually.

How do you know yourself to be?

How does anyone justify never sinning after salvation!

I believe never sinning after salvation is false doctrine.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[electedbyHim]

It is heresy.

These people will tell you that you condone sin if you have sin.

These people are superior and look down on others that admit that they fall into sin and temptaion.

These people take Bible verses out of context to fit their doctrine.

These people will tell you that you are not saved if you fall into sin.

These people can hide behind a keyboard and proclaim they are sinless, who would really know on the internet.

The fact remains, the greatest men that God has used in church history have never preached sinless perfection.

Spurgeon was at a conference where a preacher taught perfectionism in an outspoken manner and even claimed to have reached a state of sinless perfection himself. Spurgeon didn’t challenge him on the spot. Instead, the next morning he poured a pitcher of milk over the man’s head, to which the ‘perfectionist’ responded with the kind of rage and hostility that you’d expect from any sinner. Perfectionism debunked.

 

[for_his_glory]

We are all born with nature to sin because of the fall of Adam and Eve who introduced sin into the world allowing to fall to Satan's temptaion. All have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, that's a fact. But, to those who are of Christ need to get up every morning and crucify this flesh and walk in the Spirit so we do not fulfill the lust of the flesh. No one has to sin like it's some kind of command to do so as it's a freewill choice to fall to the temptations Satan loves to place before us.

Even a Spiritually born again child of God will mess up at times as we are still mortal living in a corruptible fleshly body where the sin nature dwells. Grace does not give us a license to sin, but when we do we have an intercessor (Christ Jesus) before the Father who makes intercession for us and forgives our sin when we repent of them. There will always be a struggle between the flesh and the Spirit and sometimes the flesh will win the battle, but never the war. A Spiritually born again indwelled with the Holy Spirit child of God should never willfully sin like we plan to do so, but yet we see ourselves messing up at times and having to admit to our downfall we need help from God to work on. Does that mean we are no longer God's own, no, it just means we are yet housed in this fleshly body.


Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Consecrated Life]

It is heresy.

These people will tell you that you condone sin if you have sin.

These people are superior and look down on others that admit that they fall into sin and temptaion.

No worries however because you will never , ever speak to one of these internet ghosts face to face in the light of day.
Unlike my Savior Jesus Christ who never once hesitated not only stating His nature , but challenging anyone to prove Him a sinner.
They do not conduct themselves publicly as Christ had no fear to do, because unlike Christ they afraid to do so anywhere but from the safety of the internet shadows.
They are more unseen than Bigfoot.
You will never meet one let alone have one make this identical claim publicly :

Jhn 8:46
Which of you convinceth me of sin?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hey All,

John 8:10-11 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Do we believe that this woman never sinned again?

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Is this a command or a suggestion?

I submit that it is a command.

I further submit that I fundamentally cannot keep this command in a continuous ongoing manner.

I try to love God with everything I've got and others like myself.

But I still sin.
To say that I never sin would be a lie; a sin within the denial.

Some here in these forums say that my admission of sin makes me unrepentant. Which means, I am still lost in my sins.

I believe what John said.
I am forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness.

When I make a mistake and sin, that sin is part of the "all unrighteousness."

I admit that I sin because it is true.
I admit through shame, not boasting.
My admission keeps my relationship with God honest, and makes me free.

I like being free.

To keep that freedom I will continually try to keep Jesus' command.
I know I will fail from time to time.
But I will not let failure keep me from trying.

And that ladies and gentlemen is the struggle.

If any of you don't have to deal with this, you are either truly blessed in a special way(and I hope that's the case), or you are in denial of the truth.

Only you know which it is for sure.

I know what I am for sure.

I am a sinner saved by grace, through faith, in Jesus.

I need God's grace continually.

How do you know yourself to be?

How does anyone justify never sinning after salvation!

I believe never sinning after salvation is false doctrine.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

I got some good news for you.
Jesus' command IS sustainable...if you are reborn of God's seed !

 

[GodsGrace]

No worries however because you will never , ever speak to one of these internet ghosts face to face in the light of day.
Unlike my Savior Jesus Christ who never once hesitated not only stating His nature , but challenging anyone to prove Him a sinner.
They do not conduct themselves publicly as Christ had no fear to do, because unlike Christ they afraid to do so anywhere but from the safety of the internet shadows.
They are more unseen than Bigfoot.
You will never meet one let alone have one make this identical claim publicly :

Jhn 8:46
Which of you convinceth me of sin?

I don't think it's a matter of hiding behind a computer.
I think those that believe they never sin actually believe they don't.

My reasoning is that they don't understand how perfect God is and how any tiny dart that goes off course is, to Him, what we call a sin.

When we understand how God is so bright as to be unable to look Him in the face,
then we realize what wretched creatures we are and in need of calling out for help every day.

 

[Consecrated Life]

I don't think it's a matter of hiding behind a computer.
I think those that believe they never sin actually believe they don't.

How do they reconcile the fact that there is not a single publicly well known Christian Pastor, Author , evangelist, theologian out of the many to chose from who has ever made the claim that they do not sin ?

 

[GodsGrace]

How do they reconcile the fact that there is not a single publicly well known Christian Pastor, Author , evangelist, theologian out of the many to chose from who has ever made the claim that they do not sin ?

This I can't fathom.
More Christians are under the illusion that they could sin all they want and still be saved.
Looks like we go from one extreme to the other.
Jesus gave us a remedy in John 20 ? when He told the Apostles they could forgive sins .
I think that says it all...

 

[Consecrated Life]

This I can't fathom.
More Christians are under the illusion that they could sin all they want and still be saved.
Looks like we go from one extreme to the other.

The other extreme God reconciled for us Himself in His Word.
Namely with David on more than one occasion .
Once where David took a census of Israel and the punishment was the death of 70,000 of David's fellow countrymen

God gave David a choice of three punishments for his sin—three years of famine, three months of fleeing before his enemies, or three days of plague. David chose the third, and the Lord then punished Israel with a plague that killed 70,000 men from Dan in the north to Beersheba in the south. As for why God punished the whole nation for the sin of the king, that is exactly the question David asks in 2 Samuel 24:17.

The other instance where David thought he could fornicate with Bathsheba , which then turned into murder of her husband Uriah .
God did not kill David for his sin but forced him to live and witness the destruction of his family .
God declaring that the Sword would never depart from his family .

2 Samuel 12:10
Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.

That pretty much reconciles God's posture towards a Christian who tries to get away with sin.
You don't get by with it declares the Lord.

If you ever see someone who calls themselves a Christian who continually carries on with sin and does not pay a price for it , you can be sure they were not a child of His to begin with.

The old axiom that applies for that being : " God Does Not Whip The Devils Children "

 

[GodsGrace]

The other extreme God reconciled for us Himself in His Word.
Namely with David on more than one occasion .
Once where David took a census of Israel and the punishment was the death of 70,000 of David's fellow countrymen

God gave David a choice of three punishments for his sin—three years of famine, three months of fleeing before his enemies, or three days of plague. David chose the third, and the Lord then punished Israel with a plague that killed 70,000 men from Dan in the north to Beersheba in the south. As for why God punished the whole nation for the sin of the king, that is exactly the question David asks in 2 Samuel 24:17.

The other instance where David thought he could fornicate with Bathsheba , which then turned into murder of her husband Uriah .
God did not kill David for his sin but forced him to live and witness the destruction of his family .
God declaring that the Sword would never depart from his family .

2 Samuel 12:10
Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.

That pretty much reconciles God's posture towards a Christian who tries to get away with sin.
You don't get by with it declares the Lord.

If you ever see someone who calls themselves a Christian who continually carries on with sin and does not pay a price for it , you can be sure they were not a child of His to begin with.

The old axiom that applies for that being : " God Does Not Whip The Devils Children "

Agreed 100%
I like to say that we can fool others,
But we can't fool God.
He sees all.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Agreed 100%
I like to say that we can fool others,
But we can't fool God.
He sees all.

Well said .

 

[Hopeful 2]

I don't think it's a matter of hiding behind a computer.
I think those that believe they never sin actually believe they don't.

My reasoning is that they don't understand how perfect God is and how any tiny dart that goes off course is, to Him, what we call a sin.

That tiny dart must be manually, and with aforethought, sent off course in order to be a sin.
James said it required enticement, lust, temptation, and conception for something to be a sin. (James 1:14-15)
Those don't add up to "errant throws".

When we understand how God is so bright as to be unable to look Him in the face,
then we realize what wretched creatures we are and in need of calling out for help every day.

If it wasn't for rebirth from God's own seed, I might have agreed with you.
But the regenerated are much more than just the creatures of this world.

 

[Consecrated Life]

I got some good news for you.
Jesus' command IS sustainable...if you are reborn of God's seed !

Have you ever given this good news publicly in face to face to a gathered group of people , citing your own sinless life as an example ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Have you ever given this good news publicly in face to face to a gathered group of people , citing your own sinless life as an example ?

Many, many times.
However, usually "my" life doesn't come up till after I have described how obedience is achievable.

 

[GodsGrace]

That tiny dart must be manually, and with aforethought, sent off course in order to be a sin.
James said it required enticement, lust, temptation, and conception for something to be a sin. (James 1:14-15)
Those don't add up to "errant throws".

If it wasn't for rebirth from God's own seed, I might have agreed with you.
But the regenerated are much more than just the creatures of this world.

You're right Hopeful.
In order for something to be a sin, one must know it's a sin.
The dart doesn't go off course on its own.
Thanks for the correction - my statement came out badly.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I got some good news for you.
Jesus' command IS sustainable...if you are reborn of God's seed !

Agreed, though you have to physically die too.

 

[electedbyHim]

You're right Hopeful.
In order for something to be a sin, one must know it's a sin.
The dart doesn't go off course on its own.
Thanks for the correction - my statement came out badly.

According to the Bible we can sin and not even know it, and still need to confess it.

Leviticus 5:17-18 "Now if a person sins and does any of the things which the LORD has commanded not to be done, though he was unaware, still he is guilty and shall bear his punishment. "He is then to bring to the priest a ram without defect from the flock, according to your valuation, for a guilt offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his error in which he sinned unintentionally and did not know it, and it will be forgiven him.

Psalm 19:12-13 Who can discern his errors? Acquit me of hidden faults. Also keep back Your slave from presumptuous sins; Let them not rule over me; Then I will be blameless, And I shall be acquitted of great transgression.

I am certain these verses will get twisted to fit the narrative.

 

[GodsGrace]

According to the Bible we can sin and not even know it, and still need to confess it.

Leviticus 5:17-18 "Now if a person sins and does any of the things which the LORD has commanded not to be done, though he was unaware, still he is guilty and shall bear his punishment. "He is then to bring to the priest a ram without defect from the flock, according to your valuation, for a guilt offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his error in which he sinned unintentionally and did not know it, and it will be forgiven him.

Psalm 19:12-13 Who can discern his errors? Acquit me of hidden faults. Also keep back Your slave from presumptuous sins; Let them not rule over me; Then I will be blameless, And I shall be acquitted of great transgression.

I am certain these verses will get twisted to fit the narrative.

Agreed.
I ask forgiveness for the known sins and the unknown sins.
Now, this COULD be debated, bu I happen to agree with you.

Could You tell me how this could be?
Unknown sins I mean.

 

[electedbyHim]

Agreed.
I ask forgiveness for the known sins and the unknown sins.
Now, this COULD be debated, bu I happen to agree with you.

Could You tell me how this could be?
Unknown sins I mean.

I myself pray this psalm

Psalm 19:12-13 Who can discern his errors? Acquit me of hidden faults. Also keep back Your slave from presumptuous sins; Let them not rule over me; Then I will be blameless, And I shall be acquitted of great transgression.

I do not believe this can be debated.

There are many ways someone can sin unintentionally, especially someone new in Christ, or even the so-called Christian who does not feed on the word of God.

Personally I believe we have secret (hidden) sins as David says. There are sins in our mind, thoughts and actions that we do not even understand.

Check out these comments.

Psalm 19:12 Who can discern his errors? Acquit me of hidden faults.


Errors (07691) (segiyah; Lxx = paraptoma [word study]) a sin committed through inadvertence and error. It refers to a wrong which is not committed willfully or intentionally, but because of either ignorance or inattention.

Webster says that "error" is a wandering or deviation from the truth (God's Word is the Word of Truth - 2Co 6:7, Col 1:5, 2Ti 2:15, Jas 1:18). "Error may be voluntary, or involuntary. Voluntary, when men neglect or pervert the proper means to inform the mind; involuntary, when the means of judging correctly are not in their power. An error committed through carelessness or haste is a blunder." (1828 Webster)


William Law…

Every step which strays from the strict path of perfect love is error. Who can count up these countless deviations! They far exceed the ocean's sands. They may be hidden from man's eye, but all are patent to omniscient scrutiny. Let the thought drive us to the all-atoning blood, and prompt the earnest prayer, Cleanse me, O Jesus, cleanse. (Psalm 19 - Exposition)

William S Plumer (1864) agrees with David that…

No man can understand his errors. Psalm 19:12. The growth of iniquity is like the diffusion of leaven. It is very rapid, and soon changes the whole lump. The more full the consent of the soul to any sin, the more defiled it is. This command clearly settles the point that the seat of the divine government in man is the human heart. When that is right, all is right. When that is wrong, all is wrong. (Ten Commandments)

Spurgeon…

Who can understand his errors? A question which is its own answer. It rather requires a note of exclamation than of interrogation. By the law is the knowledge of sin, and in the presence of divine truth, the psalmist marvels at the number and heinousness of his sins. He best knows himself who best knows the Word, but even such an one will be in a maze of wonder as to what he does not know, rather than on the mount of congratulation as to what he does know. We have heard of a comedy of errors, but to a good man this is more like a tragedy. Many books have a few lines of errata at the end, but our errata might well be as large as the volume if we could but have sense enough to see them. Augustine wrote in his older days a series of Retractations; ours might make a library if we had enough grace to be convinced of our mistakes and to confess them. (Ps 19:12 Treasury of David)

Thomas Brooks writes…
All Christians have their secret sins. Secret not only from other men—but from himself! It is but natural for every man to err, and then to be ignorant of his errors. Every man's sins are beyond his understanding. There is not the best, the wisest, nor the holiest man in the world—who can give a full and entire list of his sins.

"Who can understand his errors? Cleanse me from secret faults." Psalm 19:12

"Who can understand his errors?" This interrogation has the force of an affirmation: "Who can?" No man! No, not the most perfect and innocent man in the world!

O friends! who can reckon up … the secret sinful imaginations, the secret sinful inclinations, the secret pride, the secret blasphemies, the secret hypocrisies, the secret atheistical risings, the secret murmurings, the secret repinings, the secret discontents, the secret insolencies, the secret filthinesses, the secret unbelievings, which God might every day charge upon his soul?

Should the best and holiest man on earth have but his secret sins written on his forehead, it would not only put him to a crimson blush—but it would make him pull his hat over his eyes, or cover his face with a double scarf! (Privy key of heaven)

Mark Guy Pearse…

The world wants men who are saved from secret faults. The world can put on an outside goodness and go very far in uprightness and morality, and it expects that a Christian shall go beyond it, and be free from secret faults. A little crack will spoil the ring of the coin … The world expects, and rightly, that the Christian should be more gentle, and patient, and generous, than he who does not profess to be a disciple of the Lord Jesus. For the sake of those who take their notion of religion from our lives, we need to put up this prayer earnestly, “Cleanse thou me from secret faults.” (Thoughts for the Quiet Hour. Chicago: Revell, 1990)

 

[GodsGrace]

I myself pray this psalm

Psalm 19:12-13 Who can discern his errors? Acquit me of hidden faults. Also keep back Your slave from presumptuous sins; Let them not rule over me; Then I will be blameless, And I shall be acquitted of great transgression.

I do not believe this can be debated.

There are many ways someone can sin unintentionally, especially someone new in Christ, or even the so-called Christian who does not feed on the word of God.

Personally I believe we have secret (hidden) sins as David says. There are sins in our mind, thoughts and actions that we do not even understand.

Check out these comments.

Psalm 19:12 Who can discern his errors? Acquit me of hidden faults.


Errors (07691) (segiyah; Lxx = paraptoma [word study]) a sin committed through inadvertence and error. It refers to a wrong which is not committed willfully or intentionally, but because of either ignorance or inattention.

Webster says that "error" is a wandering or deviation from the truth (God's Word is the Word of Truth - 2Co 6:7, Col 1:5, 2Ti 2:15, Jas 1:18). "Error may be voluntary, or involuntary. Voluntary, when men neglect or pervert the proper means to inform the mind; involuntary, when the means of judging correctly are not in their power. An error committed through carelessness or haste is a blunder." (1828 Webster)


William Law…

Every step which strays from the strict path of perfect love is error. Who can count up these countless deviations! They far exceed the ocean's sands. They may be hidden from man's eye, but all are patent to omniscient scrutiny. Let the thought drive us to the all-atoning blood, and prompt the earnest prayer, Cleanse me, O Jesus, cleanse. (Psalm 19 - Exposition)

William S Plumer (1864) agrees with David that…

No man can understand his errors. Psalm 19:12. The growth of iniquity is like the diffusion of leaven. It is very rapid, and soon changes the whole lump. The more full the consent of the soul to any sin, the more defiled it is. This command clearly settles the point that the seat of the divine government in man is the human heart. When that is right, all is right. When that is wrong, all is wrong. (Ten Commandments)

Spurgeon…

Who can understand his errors? A question which is its own answer. It rather requires a note of exclamation than of interrogation. By the law is the knowledge of sin, and in the presence of divine truth, the psalmist marvels at the number and heinousness of his sins. He best knows himself who best knows the Word, but even such an one will be in a maze of wonder as to what he does not know, rather than on the mount of congratulation as to what he does know. We have heard of a comedy of errors, but to a good man this is more like a tragedy. Many books have a few lines of errata at the end, but our errata might well be as large as the volume if we could but have sense enough to see them. Augustine wrote in his older days a series of Retractations; ours might make a library if we had enough grace to be convinced of our mistakes and to confess them. (Ps 19:12 Treasury of David)

Thomas Brooks writes…
All Christians have their secret sins. Secret not only from other men—but from himself! It is but natural for every man to err, and then to be ignorant of his errors. Every man's sins are beyond his understanding. There is not the best, the wisest, nor the holiest man in the world—who can give a full and entire list of his sins.

"Who can understand his errors? Cleanse me from secret faults." Psalm 19:12

"Who can understand his errors?" This interrogation has the force of an affirmation: "Who can?" No man! No, not the most perfect and innocent man in the world!

O friends! who can reckon up … the secret sinful imaginations, the secret sinful inclinations, the secret pride, the secret blasphemies, the secret hypocrisies, the secret atheistical risings, the secret murmurings, the secret repinings, the secret discontents, the secret insolencies, the secret filthinesses, the secret unbelievings, which God might every day charge upon his soul?

Should the best and holiest man on earth have but his secret sins written on his forehead, it would not only put him to a crimson blush—but it would make him pull his hat over his eyes, or cover his face with a double scarf! (Privy key of heaven)

Mark Guy Pearse…

The world wants men who are saved from secret faults. The world can put on an outside goodness and go very far in uprightness and morality, and it expects that a Christian shall go beyond it, and be free from secret faults. A little crack will spoil the ring of the coin … The world expects, and rightly, that the Christian should be more gentle, and patient, and generous, than he who does not profess to be a disciple of the Lord Jesus. For the sake of those who take their notion of religion from our lives, we need to put up this prayer earnestly, “Cleanse thou me from secret faults.” (Thoughts for the Quiet Hour. Chicago: Revell, 1990)

Thanks for such a good reply.
I like to say that God is perfection and we must miss the mark so many times during any day....let alone the times we know we have.

This does not make us sinners, but children of God that sin.

I do believe we walk in the light, but still we stumble.