Sinless To Be Saved

[JLB]

What are the commands of God? they are these the Law of Christ, love the Lord and love the fellow saved of God

I was hoping we could use scripture.

 

[JLB]

If you add anything to faith.

Yet we are commanded to add to our faith… if we want to make our election sure.


But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[Free]

grace alone then all men would have salvation cos God desires all to be saved?

No. That isn't how it works.

we can't say we are bible christians if we don't believe the bible!

Of course, but that has nothing to do with what I said.

 

[onlysaved]

Yet we are commanded to add to our faith… if we want to make our election sure.


But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Yes.... funny thing you don't have too add those things. They are fruits of the spirit.. meaning if you have the spirit they will be in you.

Also that's all post salvation and again not the cause of salvation.

 

[Fish153]

Of course it's both ways.
It's what Ephesians 2:8-10 teaches.

We are saved by God's grace
THROUGH FAITH
for good works.


It's the other way around Free.
The NT writers have added to faith.
I think you misspoke...

If something is added to faith...
it is no longer faith alone.
But faith and prayer.
Faith and forgiveness.
Faith and charity.
Faith and love.
etc.




Yes. Faith in God keeps us saved.
Do we follow those we have faith in?
Do we do as they teach us?
What does it mean to have faith in God?

Jesus sent us a helper.
A helper.
Not a slave keeper.
The Holy Spirit will help us...
Jesus will keep us...
IF we allow Him to...
IF we act on His words...
or our house will fall.

James said that faith without works is dead.
That's all he said.


Matthew 7:26-27
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell -and great was its fall."


I call it obedience.
You and others call it works...



If obedience is evidence that we're saved....
and some think they're saved but state that works are filthy rags...
are they saved?
Maybe it would be a good idea to announce to them that our works are NOT filthy rags and that they please God.


I just don't know where it states this.
And is TRULY SAVED
better than SAVED?

I've posted scripture that shows that born again believers can fall away from the faith.
Where does a writer in the NT state that those that fall away were never really saved to begin with?

Wow!

Here is my question
and your reply:



You replied:
"Why in the world would I do such a thing, when I have repeatedly and very clearly stated that obeying God does not save us? Why?"

Did you just say that obeying God DOES NOT SAVE US?


Is a TRUE SAVING FAITH different from FAITH?

The NT teaches that faith saves us.


Ditto sir.

GodsGrace---

There have been a lot of posts. But the main "theme" of your posts is that we need to "maintain" our salvation by doing good works. If we don't we could be lost. You use scriptures like Matthew 7:21-23 to try to prove this. I'm just curious how you interpret "saved"? If you need to "maintain" salvation---then there must have been a point in time where you were "saved" correct?

What happened when this "salvation" occurred? Do you interpret this "salvation" to be a day you "determined" to follow Jesus? Or do you, as I do, believe the day of Salvation was a day I was BORN AGAIN. I was REGENERATED by the "washing and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:4). So, what happened the day I was born-again? I became a "child of God"---I wasn't before---I was a "child of wrath" (See Ephesians 2:1-7) So, there was a definite moment when I was "born" of the Spirit---when the Holy Spirit entered into me and I became a NEW CREATION (see 2 Cor. 5:17).

Please read the following:

"Beloved, NOW ARE WE (present tense) the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is". (1 John 3:2)

Notice that the Apostle John is calling this a PRESENT STATE. WE ARE THE SONS OF GOD. "NOW are we the sons of God..." So, there was a definite time when we went from being "children of wrath" to "children of God". How did this happen? We were born-again by the Spirit. We are now God's "DEAR CHILDREN" (see Eph. 5:1).

GodsGrace---I have to ask you. What if your earthly father came to you and said "You are my daughter. In order to MAINTAIN that you must do several good deeds per day that truly please me. If you do not I may cast you away and you will no longer be my daughter. And no matter how many good deeds you do, there is always a chance it might not be enough. So, keep on your toes, and do plenty of good works so you can REMAIN being my daughter. If you decide to leave I will no longer consider you my daughter. Because, since you chose to leave I don't consider you my daughter any longer. You're remaining in the position of being my daughter depends entirely on what YOU DO."

Many Christians motivated by "works salvation" see God that way. But the Bible does not teach that. The Bible teaches that salvation is A GIFT OF GOD. You are GIVEN eternal life (John 3:16)--and you have become A CHILD OF GOD. You have moved from being a child of wrath to being a Child of the King. You were not born-again by any WORK YOU DID. It was a gift of God. So, what makes you think that you have to WORK for God to REMAIN SAVED? It is a false teaching.

Really take a minute and consider your Mom or Dad telling you that to REMAIN being their daughter THEY EXPECT certain works from you!! That isn't LOVE---that is works based on FEAR. Personal testimony: MANY years ago I was part of a Legalistic Church that saw God as a God who EXPECTED works to MAINTAIN the GIFT of salvation in my life. It was a grueling experience. When I finally saw that God is a God of complete Grace--and that salvation was a gift from God, and that it was eternally mine I rejoiced like I had never rejoiced before. Mark this: I did not see this freedom in Grace as license to go sin. I received this freedom in Grace with great thankfulness and it caused me to WANT to pursue righteousness as I could clearly see HOW MUCH GOD LOVED ME. I was motivated to do good works because I was saved by Grace---NOT motivated to do good works to remain saved!! One motivation comes from LOVE, the other comes from FEAR. I have been a Christian now for over 53 years. Believing that I am saved by Grace through Faith, and eternally so, has not led me into a life of debauchery. It has led me closer and closer to the Gracious Lord. He will never let me go---I am held in the Father's hand and contrary to what others teach---I cannot "jump out" of His hand. I am one of those that Peter mentions:
"Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time". (1 Peter 1:5)

 

[JLB]

Yes.... funny thing you don't have too add those things. They are fruits of the spirit.. meaning if you have the spirit they will be in you.

Also that's all post salvation and again not the cause of salvation.

Bro, the scripture plainly and clearly says to diligently add to your faith… several things.

Diligently refers to faithfully and continuously.

But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-8

These things are added to each of our lives as the Spirit leads us and guides us as individuals.

Being led by the Spirit is to be in alignment and harmony with the Spirit as He reveals to us what we are to do.

Notice the specific language used for this harmonious work of the Spirit together with our spirit.

• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:13-14


It’s always us by the Spirit doing these things.


As we spend time seeking God in private devotion, and wait upon Him, reading and meditating on the scriptures, praying in the Spirit, fasting being set apart unto Him, He will reveals these secrets to us.

Asking Him for wisdom in these things is one of the keys.

If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. James 4:5

 

[JLB]

Also that's all post salvation and again not the cause of salvation.

Of course adding to your faith is something only born again Christians can do.

But must do… if we want to make our election”election” sure.

 

[donadams]

Case in point.

according to your understanding (((grace excludes all works)))

Ephesians 2:8-9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death...

do you believe that sin causes eternal death?
thks

 

[GodsGrace]

Why would anyone who was saved, at infinite cost to God and having been filled with his Spirit, not want to be kept saved? How is it even possible such a person would want to change their mind?

A person could choose not to remain saved for different reasons:

1 Timothy 4:1
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
Some pay attention to deceitful spirits and doctines of demons instead of the Word of God.


2 Timothy 2:4
4 No soldier in active service entangles himself in the affairs of everyday life, so that he may please the one who enlisted him as a soldier.
We get entangled with the affairs of the world and do not please God.


Hebrews 10:26
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
We go on sinning after receivng the truth.


There are also other reasons:
Bowing to persecution....Luke 8.13
Not keeping the faith till the end....Hebrews 3.14

You haven't given a single verse that shows "our works . . . KEEP US SAVED." You have given many that show we are to obey God, which I fully agree with.

Jesus makes it very clear that if we do not obey His words we will FALL....


Matthew 7:26-27
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell -and great was its fall."
All writers of the NT wrote what Jesus taught.
They all taught that we could fall away from our faith....
scripture given just above supports this.

I have given several verses that show what I have stated--that justification is by faith alone, that we obey Jesus because we love him, that works are only evidence of a saving faith, and that it is God who will complete the work he began in us.

Works may be evidence....
The NT teaches that good works/deeds are NECESSARY....

It teaches that we will be judged by them:

Romans 2:6-8
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.



2 Corinthians 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.



John 5:28-29
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

I can only post scripture....
not using paragraphs trying to change what it says....
but only the Holy Spirit can make one believe what it teaches.

No, those things were undeserving of any response because they're pointless questions. If you actually read what I wrote and took things I say at face value, you would see that your questions have been answered numerous times.


See, case in point again--you simply are not reading what I write. There is no other explanation at this point.

I don't see scripture to which I can reply.

No, not ditto. I fully understand what you're writing and disagree; you're continually misrepresenting what I say and presenting straw men versions that you disagree with.

Then you disagree that we are to obey God.
Because THAT is all that I'm saying.

If we do not obey God...no further sacrifice is available to us.
Hebrews 10:26
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
We could RECEIVE the knowledge of truth...
and still keep on sinning...
and forfeit our gift of salvation.


Galatians 6:7-9
7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever * a man sows, this he will also reap.
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Genesis 15:6; Luke 7:50; 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-9, 26; Ephesians 2:8-9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Obedience/works "follows." (Ephesians 2:10)

If obedience follows.....
why do we need all those verses you put in parenthesis instead of posting them?
You think carpet bombing makes for good conversation?

I agree that we are saved through belief.
So what does BELIEVE mean?
for the upteenth time.

Now you don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Hence, FAITH ALONE. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus, works? NO. So, then it's faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

Problem is that FAITH ALONE is not in the NT.
We are told to DO THINGS in the NT.
The moment something is ADDED to faith...
it is no longer faith alone.

Yes....something is added to faith:

WE ARE TO CONFESS. ROMANS
REPENT....ACTS
BE BAPTIZED....ACTS
CONFESS OUR SINS....JOHN
PRAY....ROMANS, MATTHEW
SEEK THE THINGS FROM ABOVE....COLOSSIANS
CALLED TO BE SAINTS....CORINTHIANS
ETC

To say nothing of the qualities Jesus teaches in the beginning of the beatitudes,
Matthew 5.


page 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

page 2 of 2

*Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works (James 2:14-24) which is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith.

I don't see any scripture about a "bare profession of faith".
I read that believers are to obey God and do good works.

EPHESIANS 2:10
MATTHEW 5.16
JAMES 2:17
TITUS 3:4
TITUS 3.8
JAMES 1.27
COLOSSIANS 3.23
HEBREWS 13.16
REV 22.12
1 JOHN 3:18

(carpet bombing doesn't work well, but there you have it-it can be done by anyone)

Let's just post one...like we're SUPPOSED to.
1 John 3:18
18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.
(sounds like James - faith without works is dead).

In regard to James 2:17 and James 2:20, let's keep things in context. In James 2:14 we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim).

Where does it state this?
You copy and paste but there's no mention of someone making a claim.

Here is what James said.
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

FAITH....someone has faith
WITHOUT WORKS.....he doesn't do good deeds
IS DEAD....he has a dead faith.....it will not save him because he does not ACT on his faith as Jesus taught.

Jesus said to ACT on His word, or our house would fall.
Matthew 7:26-27
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell -and great was its fall."

That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith,

The NT speaks about faith.

What is the difference between FAITH
and
GENUINE FAITH?

but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

Now in regard to "faith being alone" or "faith without works is dead," James does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works

Oh but yes sir. James means EXACTLY that faith without work is dead.
Faith WITHOUT WORKS is not complete.
James 2:22
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. Again, if someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

§Actually, Jesus taught that a branch IN HIM that does not bear fruit will be taken away.
John 15.2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;

A believer that does not bear fruit will be taken away.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

Actually, Abraham ALWAYS worked for §God.
Abraham left his birth place in order to OBEY God.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous.

Again,,,Abraham did not begin to obey God when he offered Isaac.
This idea is moot.
Abraham ALWAYS obeyed God.

In regard to James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

Breath? You want to discuss pneuma?
God's breath caused things to happen.
God's pneuma caused WORKS that were wrought by

If we experience God's pneuma...
we will do works for God.

 

[Free]

according to your understanding (((grace excludes all works)))

For the purposes of salvation, yes.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death...

do you believe that sin causes eternal death?
thks

Yes.

 

[donadams]

For the purposes of salvation, yes.


Yes.

how can you?

if according to your understanding of eph 2:8-9 all works are excluded!

both positive works:
and negative works:

positive works:
obedience
virtues
prayer
fasting, alms, suffering


negative works:
disobedience
vice
sin

you want it both ways:

1) no works cause salvation.

2) works cause damnation.

thks

 

[JesusFan]

I was hoping we could use scripture.

just use Jesus answer regarding what are the greatest commandments?

 

[JesusFan]

Abraham was declared righteous before he obeyed any of God's commands.. God told Abraham that he'd be the father of many nations in spite of the fact he and Sarah were both beyond child bearing age. He set aside his earthly understanding of the issue and he believed God would do it.
That is what made him righteous, what justified him and what saved him.

He believed God would do what He promised.... that's it. Nothing more..


If you add anything to faith. You have to be 100% perfect in your observance of whatever you add.. and even if you are your faith is not in God but in the idol of works, which is really just worshiping yourself.

God only has ever saved based upon his will and grace period, as he knows that none of us as lost sinners would be able to do anything ever to merit or assist Him saving us

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus told us that the "work" required by god is to believe upon God the father, and upon the One he sent, Himself sa messiah of the entire world

OK.
§That took a minute.

So if we are to BELIEVE upon God the Father?

I ask, again,
what does that look like?

What does it mean to BELIEVE on God the Father and the One He sent...
Who is ALSO God.

Did Jesus leave us with any commands?
He said that if we love Him we will follow His commands.
Are there any?

 

[GodsGrace]

God only has ever saved based upon his will and grace period, as he knows that none of us as lost sinners would be able to do anything ever to merit or assist Him saving us

So do we need faith?
We are saved THROUGH FAITH.
So faith is NOT needed for salvation?

 

[donadams]

Trying to change the meaning of a word like worship is just a cop out. the word means what the word means there is no other meaning to it and Jesus said to only worship God you can listen to him or ignore him but either way your worship of mary is unbiblical.

have you actually read the dictionary and looked up the word "worship"?

A beautiful illustration of how fundamentalist brainwashing blinds one to the truth.

A fundamentalist cannot understand a simple dictionary definition of worship but can only restate the fundamentalist brainwashing.

They are spiritually blind and deaf and cannot see or hear, they will read our responses but they never hear them.

They can never come to the knowledge of the truth!

(Jesus referred to this in mt 11:15)

This fundamentalist brainwashing also causes rejection of scripture!

Fundamentalism is religious extremism and spiritual zealotry!

thks

 

[donadams]

just use Jesus answer regarding what are the greatest commandments?

you mean it ain't "faith alone"?

 

[donadams]

God only has ever saved based upon his will and grace period, as he knows that none of us as lost sinners would be able to do anything ever to merit or assist Him saving us

what in our being damned?

do you believe the wages of sin is death?