Christian Forums

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Christian Forum aspires to be an online community where Christians can come together in fellowship with the purpose to encourage, inspire and build up our faith in Christ Jesus. John 13:34-35
  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Tasted Death for every Man !

Fastfredy0

Supporter
From
Chandler, Tx
Gender
Male
Messages
1,209
Joined
May 4, 2020
For me it was when I was taught opposing doctrines. I decided to put all of my beliefs on the table. Nothing was sacred. Everything was tested against Scripture. I'd been praying that God would help me understand the Bible.
Hey Butch:
Definitely a wise and noble, well thought out goal ... the achievement of the goal and procedure to obtain the goal being the difficult part. I commend you.

I was tired of this verse fits but that one doesn't.
Agreed. God does not contradict Himself and thus a valid presupposition.

That search lead me to the early Christian writings.
The presupposition being that people got it 'right' (or more so) in the beginning.

That and finding a group of well grounded deep studying Christians has gone a long way in helping me to find what the Bible really teaches.
Ah, another presupposition... the 'right group'.

What really surprised me was how far off modern Christianity is from what was originally taught.
With 100 varieties, that is an observation easily obtained.

On being made in the image of God, we're not really told much. In my opinion it has to do with our being able to reason and basically a higher functioning level of intelligence than the animal kingdom.
That's similar to the best answer (IMO) that I found. Thx
 

Edward

Member
From
USA
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
13,211
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
The breath isn't the act of breathing. The breath of life is something of God Himself that He has put into all flesh. It's that which gives us life and all of our abilities. We can think because God has given us His breath which makes our brains function. Everything we do, we do because God's breath has enabled us.

But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. (Job 32:8 NKJ)

Both of the bolded words mean wind or breath. There is a breath in man. That is the breath of life from God. The breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. The breath of the Almighty that gives him understanding is the breath of life from God

Notice what Job says, "there is a breath". He didn't say there were breaths, plural. He said there is a breath, one.
When we look at the creation of man we see that God put one breath into the man, the breath of life. It came out of God. The picture we're given is that it was breathed into the man. That indicates that it came out of God. It is this breath that man Adam alive. If we look at Ezekiel 37 we find a picture of the resurrection of Israel. It's very similar to what we see in the creation of Adam. However, after the bones come together and the flesh comes on them they are not alive. Just like Adam. Then God tells Ezekiel to prophesy to the breath.

The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, 2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. 3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. 4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. 11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. (Ezek. 37:1 KJV)

All of the bolded words are the same Hebrew word, ruach. The translators have used three different words to translate it. In doing so many don't see what ruach actually is.

According to this passage, the bones and flesh come together but are not alive. The breath comes into them and they live. But notice the key statement when God is explaining this to Ezekiel. He said He would put His breath into them and they would live. It's God's breath that gives us life and the ability to do the things we do.

Sorry about the bullet points and stuff. I dunno why it did that and I can't figure how to turn it off, lol.




I looked up the Job scripture in the blueletterbible concordance and those two words in Job 32:8 are different words.

  • Spirit is H7307 (ruah) from H7306 and lists different ways it can be used...
  1. breath, spirit
    1. breath (of God)
    2. breath (of man)
    3. every breathing thing
    4. spirit (of man)
  2. And the word Breath is H5397 (nsama) from H5395 and it reads just like the first one in how it's used...
    • breath, spirit
      1. breath (of God)
      2. breath (of man)
      3. every breathing thing
      4. spirit (of man)
    • It says there that when we say spirit we can mean the breath of God. But it can also mean spirit of man. And in Job 32: 8 it says
    • But there is a spirit in man,
      And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding..../

So it speaks of man having a spirit within him that is different than the breath of God. It's clearly speaking of two separate things in man. I'm surely open minded and will admit if I am wrong about something, but as my understanding goes, I understand that man does have a spirit. And so far, I have not heard anything to refute that scripturally.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JLB

Butch5

Member
From
Homer Georgia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
4,677
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Hey Butch:
Definitely a wise and noble, well thought out goal ... the achievement of the goal and procedure to obtain the goal being the difficult part. I commend you.
Thanks! In doing that it helped me to set aside presuppositions that were hindering me. At the time I didn't know that the presuppositions were a hinderance because I assumed they were correct. As I began sorting through things and actually checking the things I assumed to be correct, I found that many of them were wrong. Once I realized many of my basic assumptions were wrong, I then had to look at beliefs that were based on those wrong assumptions. It started a snowball effect. Fast forward to today and I've changed over 90% of what I originally believed.
Agreed. God does not contradict Himself and thus a valid presupposition.
Yep, People were telling me that the Scriptures are without error. If that is the case then how are two different churches teaching opposing doctrines from the same Bible? This told me that at least one of them had to be wrong. It's possible that they both were wrong, but it's not possible that both are right. That's what started the search.
The presupposition being that people got it 'right' (or more so) in the beginning.
Yeah, my thought was to go back to the very beginning and see what was taught first. It's funny because Tertullian, one of the early writers, used that very argument. He said that which is first is true. It makes sense, you can't have false doctrine until you have the doctrine. Therefore whatever was taught first is true.
Ah, another presupposition... the 'right group'.
This was a major key. I found a group that studies the Bible deeply and very seriously. It includes studies of the original languages. It includes comparing the Greek OT with the Hebrew OT. It includes looking at variant readings among the different texts. For instance, if we want to know what a soul is, the process is to look at every passage in the Bible that contains the word. In this case it means looking a 458 verses, looking at how they are used in context, and comparing all of those usages to come to the narrowest possible definition. It's very in depth. It takes a lot of time, but I had asked God for this so I was happy to get it. After all, If God is the most important thing to us then there is no amount of time that is too much.
With 100 varieties, that is an observation easily obtained.
That and the fact that many of the doctrines that are taught today were not in the beginning and some that were taught in the beginning aren't anymore.
That's similar to the best answer (IMO) that I found. Thx
You're welcome! That's a hard one because we aren't given a lot of information about what that means.
 

Butch5

Member
From
Homer Georgia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
4,677
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Sorry about the bullet points and stuff. I dunno why it did that and I can't figure how to turn it off, lol.




I looked up the Job scripture in the blueletterbible concordance and those two words in Job 32:8 are different words.

  • Spirit is H7307 (ruah) from H7306 and lists different ways it can be used...
  1. breath, spirit
    1. breath (of God)
    2. breath (of man)
    3. every breathing thing
    4. spirit (of man)
  2. And the word Breath is H5397 (nsama) from H5395 and it reads just like the first one in how it's used...
    • breath, spirit
      1. breath (of God)
      2. breath (of man)
      3. every breathing thing
      4. spirit (of man)
    • It says there that when we say spirit we can mean the breath of God. But it can also mean spirit of man. And in Job 32: 8 it says
    • But there is a spirit in man,
      And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding..../

So it speaks of man having a spirit within him that is different than the breath of God. It's clearly speaking of two separate things in man. I'm surely open minded and will admit if I am wrong about something, but as my understanding goes, I understand that man does have a spirit. And so far, I have not heard anything to refute that scripturally.
HI Edward,

No worries, I have problems with the bullet points too. Regarding the passage in Job, Yes, they are different words. They are Neshamah and Ruach. Both mean wind or breath. If you're concerned about whether or not they are interchangeable let me post these passages.

KJV Gen. 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV Gen. 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
KJV Gen. 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
KJV Gen. 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

These 4 passages speak of the breath of life. In the first and last verse it is the Neshamah of life and in the middle two verses it is the Ruach of life.

So, these words mean wind or breath. However, sometimes they are translated figuratively as spirit. So why translate them figuratively? Well, take for instance angels and demons, sometimes they are called ruachs, translated spirits. Why would a demon be metaphorically called a wind? It's because they have traits that are similar to the wind. Jesus gave the best explanation of this.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (Jn. 3:8 KJV)

Both bolded words are the same Greek word pneuma. Jesus said the wind blows where it will. We can hear the sound of it but we cannot tell where it comes from or where it goes. We can see it's results in the blowing leaves. Likewise angels and demons go where they will. We don't know where they come from or where they go. However, we can see their results when the interact in the physical world. So, in a metaphorical sense angels and demons are like the wind, thus they are referred to as winds. Angels and demons are disembodied living beings, the wind is not. In English a disembodied living being is called a spirit. Here's the problem. The translators, when using the word spirit, are giving a real thing as the definition of a metaphor. There is no problem calling angels and demons spirits, that's perfectly fine in English. However, when we call ruachs spirits were a giving a real definition to a metaphor. Ruach and Neshamah do not have as a meaning a disembodied living being. That usage is a metaphor and not literal.

But, to get back to the original issue. We have the creation of man recorded by Moses.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

Here is the creation of man. I only see one breath being put in the man. Where do you find another?
 

brightfame52

Member
From
Atlanta
Gender
Male
Messages
883
Joined
Dec 3, 2020
Heb 2:10 makes it clear who the everyone or every man is in Heb 2:9 for whom Christ tasted death for. Its for every son that He suffered and died for, constituting Him the Captain of their Salvation which brings them to Glory:

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Notice it specifies their Salvation ! So He tasted death or suffered for their Salvation. Also this taste of death for them ensures their being brought to Glory.
 

brightfame52

Member
From
Atlanta
Gender
Male
Messages
883
Joined
Dec 3, 2020
We know that the every man in Heb 2:9 that Christ by the Grace of God, tasted death for, wasn't every individual without exception, because His death was a manifestation of Gods Grace towards them, and so by His death they are Justified by His Grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Heb 2:9

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Those He died for are Justified by His Death/Blood Rom 5:9 !
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood or Death, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

And we know everyman individually is not Justified !
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Member
From
America’s Sparta
Gender
Male
Messages
29,618
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
We know that the every man in Heb 2:9 that Christ by the Grace of God, tasted death for, wasn't every individual without exception, because His death was a manifestation of Gods Grace towards them, and so by His death they are Justified by His Grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Heb 2:9

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Those He died for are Justified by His Death/Blood Rom 5:9 !
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood or Death, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

And we know everyman individually is not Justified !


We know that Christ died for the world; that the world through him might be saved.


For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:17


That’s good news.


There is hope for all.





JLB
 

brightfame52

Member
From
Atlanta
Gender
Male
Messages
883
Joined
Dec 3, 2020
By Death delivered from Death.

We know that Christ didnt taste Death for all individuals without exception since those He tasted Death for are by His Death delivered from Death and the fear of Death Heb 2:9,14-15

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.


Those who Christ tasted death for have been set free from the death the devil brought about !
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Member
From
America’s Sparta
Gender
Male
Messages
29,618
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:17

47 pages to try and réfute the simple truth that Christ Jesus died for the sin of the World.


Its not working.
 

Fastfredy0

Supporter
From
Chandler, Tx
Gender
Male
Messages
1,209
Joined
May 4, 2020
To say the Christ died for everyone, which many claim is the intent of the word WORLD of John 3:16, is an absurdity. It is ignorance of the facts that clearly show that billions of people have died and not heard the gospel; said gospel being necessary for salvation.

https://www.globalcp.org/statistics
  • In fact, 70% of evangelical Christians have never even been told about the 1.6 billion unevangelized people in the world. (World Evangelization Research Center)
  • Despite Christ’s command to evangelize, 67% of all humans from AD 30 to the present day have never even heard the name of Jesus Christ. (Baxter 2007, 12).
  • In the last 40 years, over 1 billion people have died who have never heard of Jesus, and around 30 million people this year will perish without hearing the message of salvation. (Baxter 2007, 12).

  • Operation World states "The sobering fact is that, even with all this activity, probably 24-27% of the world’s population have not had the good news presented to them in a way they could appreciate and meaningfully respond to." (Operation World p. 10) That translates to very close to two billion individuals, one in four individuals, without any knowledge of the Savior!
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Member
From
America’s Sparta
Gender
Male
Messages
29,618
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
To say the Christ died for everyone, which many claim is the intent of the word WORLD of John 3:16, is an absurdity.


And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2


Who do you believe is excluded from the phrase “the whole world”?


Please be specific.


What would be the point of trying to exclude certain people from salvation?


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16





JLB
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Member
From
America’s Sparta
Gender
Male
Messages
29,618
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Dude, we don't even agree on the definition of words ... so the exchange of ideas is an exercise in futility.


Since the plain and clear words of scripture can not be refuted, I dont see you being able to answer the question anyway.


And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2


Who do you believe is excluded from the phrase “the whole world”?


Please be specific.


What would be the point of trying to exclude certain people from salvation?


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16




JLB
 

Hopeful

Member
From
Arizona
Gender
Male
Messages
2,068
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
To say the Christ died for everyone, which many claim is the intent of the word WORLD of John 3:16, is an absurdity. It is ignorance of the facts that clearly show that billions of people have died and not heard the gospel; said gospel being necessary for salvation.

https://www.globalcp.org/statistics
  • In fact, 70% of evangelical Christians have never even been told about the 1.6 billion unevangelized people in the world. (World Evangelization Research Center)
  • Despite Christ’s command to evangelize, 67% of all humans from AD 30 to the present day have never even heard the name of Jesus Christ. (Baxter 2007, 12).
  • In the last 40 years, over 1 billion people have died who have never heard of Jesus, and around 30 million people this year will perish without hearing the message of salvation. (Baxter 2007, 12).

  • Operation World states "The sobering fact is that, even with all this activity, probably 24-27% of the world’s population have not had the good news presented to them in a way they could appreciate and meaningfully respond to." (Operation World p. 10) That translates to very close to two billion individuals, one in four individuals, without any knowledge of the Savior!
The "credit card" is on the table, but not everyone wants the "cash".
Jesus died for everybody, but not everybody wants to serve His Father.
Folks gotta' want to be saved, to be saved.
 

Fastfredy0

Supporter
From
Chandler, Tx
Gender
Male
Messages
1,209
Joined
May 4, 2020
Inappropriate Behavior. TOS 1.1 and 1.3 violation.
Since the plain and clear words of scripture can not be refuted, I dont see you being able to answer the question anyway.
I can answer. I don't have confidence in your ability to understand or communicate your ideas.


What would be the point of trying to exclude certain people from salvation
LOL. ... you don't even acknowledge that God has NOT given billions of people a means to be saved dispute irrefrutable evidence. Th is is a waste of our time.
 

Fastfredy0

Supporter
From
Chandler, Tx
Gender
Male
Messages
1,209
Joined
May 4, 2020
The "credit card" is on the table, but not everyone wants the "cash".
Jesus died for everybody, but not everybody wants to serve His Father.
Folks gotta' want to be saved, to be saved.
Yeah, and I have offered a significant financial gift to the world if they just ask for the specific amount.
Funny, no one has asked for this gift. Might be because I have not told them.

But the offer is real, really. But not everyone wants free money.
Folks gotta ask to get the money.
 

Hopeful

Member
From
Arizona
Gender
Male
Messages
2,068
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Yeah, and I have offered a significant financial gift to the world if they just ask for the specific amount.
Funny, no one has asked for this gift. Might be because I have not told them.
I asked for it, and Jesus was true to His promise.
But the offer is real, really. But not everyone wants free money.
Folks gotta ask to get the money.
Yep.
But Jesus' offer is worth far more than money.
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Member
From
America’s Sparta
Gender
Male
Messages
29,618
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
I can answer. I don't have confidence in your ability to understand or communicate your ideas.



LOL. ... you don't even acknowledge that God has NOT given billions of people a means to be saved dispute irrefrutable evidence. Th is is a waste of our time.


Here is the evidence.


And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2


Who do you believe is excluded from the phrase “the whole world”?


Please be specific.


What would be the point of trying to exclude certain people from salvation?


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
 

Sweetvineshema

Supporter
From
Lagos
Gender
Male
Messages
459
Joined
Nov 20, 2020
The writer of Hebrews wrote Heb 2:9

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Now honestly, did the writer write here that Christ tasted death for all mankind without exception here ? Nope he did not. In the original man isnt in the verse:

τὸν δὲ βραχύ τι παρ᾽ ἀγγέλους ἠλαττωμένον βλέπομεν Ἰησοῦν διὰ τὸ πάθημα τοῦ θανάτου δόξῃ καὶ τιμῇ ἐστεφανωμένον ὅπως χάριτι θεοῦ ὑπὲρ παντὸς γεύσηται θανάτου

Man was added by the translators. The word pas can refer to all the whole, the sum total of all the group intended. Context is important n determining the group that the writer has in mind. Lets look at the very next verse 10

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Bingo, its the many sons that e suffered and died for, or tasted death for,
The word many polys:

many, much, large, many, numerous, great

He tasted death for many Sons, a great number of them, everyone of them. This is important,, because later in the same epistle the writer uses the adjective many again to denote who He tasted death for Heb 9:28


So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

See to taste death back in Heb 2:9 is the exact same thing as " to bear the sins of many;" again, the many Sons of vs 10, everyone of the sons is who He tasted death for, not all of mankind without exception.

See Isa 53:11


He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
The whole verse points out the fact that Jesus tasted death for "many" who are currently and will become God's children (Sons of God). And this could be anybody!
 

Fastfredy0

Supporter
From
Chandler, Tx
Gender
Male
Messages
1,209
Joined
May 4, 2020
Yep.
But Jesus' offer is worth far more than money.
Agreed. But again you avoid the crux of the matter. Did Christ die for the world (everyone without exception) in the sense that everyone without exception can be saved by belief in Him. If this be true, then explain how billions of dead people who never heard of Christ could have been saved by belief in Christ.

Again, Christ's offer has a catch to it. You must believe in ME (Christ). Christ (at least his divine nature) knows that for billions of people they will never believe in Him because He has denied them the opportunity to hear of him and therefore any proposed idea that Christ died for everyone without exception is a gift so to speak that will never be offered to those people. Therefore, Christ dying for the WORLD cannot mean that He died for everyone without exception in the sense that they have any opportunity to be saved whatsoever!
 
Top