Christian Forums

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Christian Forum aspires to be an online community where Christians can come together in fellowship with the purpose to encourage, inspire and build up our faith in Christ Jesus. John 13:34-35
  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Tasted Death for every Man !

Fastfredy0

Supporter
From
Chandler, Tx
Gender
Male
Messages
1,349
Joined
May 4, 2020
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

Please explain how billions of dead people who never heard of Christ could have been saved by belief in Christ.
 

Rollo Tamasi

Warrior for Christ
Supporter
From
Inverness Florida
Gender
Male
Messages
15,018
Joined
Nov 23, 2012
Please explain how billions of dead people who never heard of Christ could have been saved by belief in Christ.
May I indulge.
Who are these billions that haven't heard of Christ?
All muslims have heard of Christ.
There are more Christians in China than in the U.S.
Someone's telling them.
Hindus know all about Jesus.
Maybe some inner city blacks who live in the ghetto don't know about Jesus.
But I bet they still heard about them.

Now about tribes coming out of jungles.
How do we know if they heard about Jesus hundreds of years ago but failed to pass the knowledge down to their children.
How do we decide who is responsible and who isn't.
Must we ask, "how many people do I talk to about Jesus?"
"how many do I share the salvation message with?
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Staff member
Administrator
From
Houston Texas
Gender
Male
Messages
30,178
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Please explain how billions of dead people who never heard of Christ could have been saved by belief in Christ.

I don’t know how many people have heard the Gospel, or not, nor do I know who has believed the Gospel or not.


Neither does anyone else, except God.


Now, back to reality.


Here is the evidence, that proves that God loves the world, and sent His only Son to die for the world, in which He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.


And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2


Question:

Who do you believe is excluded from the phrase “the whole world”?


Please be specific.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


So far you have not answered this question which comes directly from scripture, nor have you provided any scripture yourself.





JLB
 

stovebolts

Staff member
Administrator
From
Michigan
Gender
Male
Messages
17,528
Joined
Nov 4, 2004
Please explain how billions of dead people who never heard of Christ could have been saved by belief in Christ.
If I may,

Romans 1:17
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

To quote Pilate, “What is truth”.
 

Hopeful

Supporter
From
Arizona
Gender
Male
Messages
2,553
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Agreed. But again you avoid the crux of the matter. Did Christ die for the world (everyone without exception) in the sense that everyone without exception can be saved by belief in Him. If this be true, then explain how billions of dead people who never heard of Christ could have been saved by belief in Christ.

Again, Christ's offer has a catch to it. You must believe in ME (Christ). Christ (at least his divine nature) knows that for billions of people they will never believe in Him because He has denied them the opportunity to hear of him and therefore any proposed idea that Christ died for everyone without exception is a gift so to speak that will never be offered to those people. Therefore, Christ dying for the WORLD cannot mean that He died for everyone without exception in the sense that they have any opportunity to be saved whatsoever!
Christ died for the whole world, but the world won't acknowledge it and turn to His Father for salvation.
If a man wants to know God, God will reveal Himself to him, whether they live in a jungle or in a Commie' country.

There is indeed a "catch".
The "catch" is what most people use to remain rebellious to God.
The "catch"?
Obedience to Him.

You say that God has denied them the opportunity to hear of Him.
I'ld call that an untruth.
 

for_his_glory

Fight the good fight of faith
Staff member
Administrator
From
South Carolina
Gender
Female
Christian
Yes
Messages
20,693
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
By Death delivered from Death.

We know that Christ didnt taste Death for all individuals without exception since those He tasted Death for are by His Death delivered from Death and the fear of Death Heb 2:9,14-15

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.


Those who Christ tasted death for have been set free from the death the devil brought about !

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

How can you deny the word "world" as Jesus spoke it four times in the first two verses. A child can understand the word "world". Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
 

brightfame52

Member
From
Atlanta
Gender
Male
Messages
1,055
Joined
Dec 3, 2020
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

How can you deny the word "world" as Jesus spoke it four times in the first two verses. A child can understand the word "world". Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
I have no problem with those verses. Yet all for whom Christ tasted death for are delivered from satans work and death.
 

for_his_glory

Fight the good fight of faith
Staff member
Administrator
From
South Carolina
Gender
Female
Christian
Yes
Messages
20,693
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
To say the Christ died for everyone, which many claim is the intent of the word WORLD of John 3:16, is an absurdity. It is ignorance of the facts that clearly show that billions of people have died and not heard the gospel; said gospel being necessary for salvation.
It is only the ignorance of men that have turned away from God that they are blinded to see Him in creation. The word of God has gone out into the world from the beginning of His creation by that which we see in His creation. But yet man refuses to hear God calling them to salvation, except Noah who was the only one who found favor in God.

It's the same today as in Noah's day as they had the oral word of God and today we have the written word of God that has been taught from the very beginning. God's word has gone out to every nation, but yet man would rather live in darkness then to allow themselves to come into the marvelous light of His glory.

No one will be without excuse before the Lord on judgement day as God can be found in all of His creation if they were quite long enough to hear His small still voice whispering in the wind. Romans 1:18-32.
 

for_his_glory

Fight the good fight of faith
Staff member
Administrator
From
South Carolina
Gender
Female
Christian
Yes
Messages
20,693
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
I have no problem with those verses. Yet all for whom Christ tasted death for are delivered from satans work and death.
You seek to change that of what Jesus said without knowing you do. Were you saved before you repented for the remission of your sin and came to the Lord and confessed Him as your Lord and Savior?
 

for_his_glory

Fight the good fight of faith
Staff member
Administrator
From
South Carolina
Gender
Female
Christian
Yes
Messages
20,693
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
When Jesus said He so loved the world, He meant everyone that lives in it. Whosoever are those in the world who will turn to Christ and accept Him as Lord and Savior while others in the world refuse to turn back to Him. Jesus will never refuse anyone who comes to Him as it is by God's grace that any of us are saved. If not for the grace of God through His Son Christ Jesus no one would be saved.
 

for_his_glory

Fight the good fight of faith
Staff member
Administrator
From
South Carolina
Gender
Female
Christian
Yes
Messages
20,693
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
I have no problem with those verses. Yet all for whom Christ tasted death for are delivered from satans work and death.
Why would Jesus only taste death for some, but not others?

Is He a respecter of person only giving a certain few a chance to repent and turn back to Him?

I know I do not serve a God who would not give everyone a chance to come to Him.
 

Fastfredy0

Supporter
From
Chandler, Tx
Gender
Male
Messages
1,349
Joined
May 4, 2020
My question: Please explain how billions of dead people who never heard of Christ could have been saved by belief in Christ.

Your answer.

Romans 1:17
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


So, you are saying people can be saved without knowing Christ by faith? If so what is the content of that faith and where in the Bible is this information found? (I assume those that do not know of Christ are saved by faith) Be specific please. This is an EXTREMELY important question as you are suggest salvation without knowing Christ.

Galatians 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we [originally] preached to you, let him be condemned to destruction! Why do you propose 'another gospel' by which men may be saved or do you propose the gospel of salvation without Christ is not another gospel.

Can one be saved by this gospel you propose? Is this gospel you propose more efficient than that spoken of by Paul, salvation by faith in Christ?

Concerning someone saved by this gospel that does not include knowledge of Christ ... is it wise to tell that person of Christ for he may be saved and not belief the 2nd gospel of Christ when he hears it. Can one be saved if one believes either of the gospels (yours without knowing Christ and the gospel that include faith in Christ), or does one have to believe both.

Where can I find information about how people are saved without knowing Christ? I would like to research their ideas.
 

Fastfredy0

Supporter
From
Chandler, Tx
Gender
Male
Messages
1,349
Joined
May 4, 2020
Christ died for the whole world, but the world won't acknowledge it and turn to His Father for salvation.
Then Christ died in vain for billions of people for one is saved by faith in Christ and we know billions of people have died without word of Christ.
You CAN'T be save by faith in CHRIST if you never heard of Him. (unless, like others you propose another gospel of salvation. (Gal. 1:8)

You say that God has denied them the opportunity to hear of Him.
I'ld call that an untruth.
I gave factual documentation. It is unreasonable for one to suppose that people living on another continent in 100 A.D. had heard of Christ. Please tell me how a 1218 North American indian heard of Christ?
I suppose all the mission that went to remote areas to evangelize were lying when they said the people they spoke to never heard of Christ.
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Staff member
Administrator
From
Houston Texas
Gender
Male
Messages
30,178
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Then Christ died in vain for billions of people for one is saved by faith in Christ and we know billions of people have died without word of Christ.
You CAN'T be save by faith in CHRIST if you never heard of Him. (unless, like others you propose another gospel of salvation. (Gal. 1:8)


I gave factual documentation. It is unreasonable for one to suppose that people living on another continent in 100 A.D. had heard of Christ. Please tell me how a 1218 North American indian heard of Christ?
I suppose all the mission that went to remote areas to evangelize were lying when they said the people they spoke to never heard of Christ.

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2


Please help us all understand why you believe the phrase the whole world excludes a specific group of people?

Who do you believe is excluded from the phrase “the whole world”?


John mentions “our sins” which refers to those already saved. The only other category would be the world of unsaved people.





JLB
 

Fastfredy0

Supporter
From
Chandler, Tx
Gender
Male
Messages
1,349
Joined
May 4, 2020
It is only the ignorance of men that have turned away from God that they are blinded to see Him in creation.
Agreed. Ignorance of the means of salvation by faith in Christ for billions of people who never heard of him.

The word of God has gone out into the world from the beginning of His creation by that which we see in His creation.
True enough. God creation is enough evidence to condemn all men but the observation of creation has NO REDEMPTIVE properties. That is to say that the knowledge that God exists via the observation of His creation is insufficient for salvation. Salvation is through Christ alone. If you know of another method, please let me know what it is and give me a web site where I can study the new method of salvation better.


today we have the written word of God that has been taught from the very beginning.
A lot more is known of God than from the very beginning as in the beginning little to nothing was known of Christ.




No one will be without excuse before the Lord on judgement day as God can be found in all of His creation if they were quite long enough to hear His small still voice whispering in the wind. Romans 1:18-32.
Agreed


My statement that you responded to was: To say the Christ died for everyone, which many claim is the intent of the word WORLD of John 3:16, is an absurdity. It is ignorance of the facts that clearly show that billions of people have died and not heard the gospel; said gospel being necessary for salvation.

You failed to show how Christ's death on the cross could be used for the salvation of those that never heard of Him. If you can't you must either propose another method of salvation or tell me how Christ's death for everyone without exception it not a vain purpose with NO HOPE of success for BILLIONS of death people who never heard of Christ.

No one will be without excuse before the Lord on judgement day as God can be found in all of His creation if they were quite long enough to hear His small still voice whispering in the wind. Romans 1:18-32.
Complete agreement. But the question of the thread is "Tasted death for every man".
Now, if by this one means that Christ death is able to save all men in a practical sense, in the sense that everyone born without exception has been given the knowledge necessary to decide to take advantage of Christ's death via faith, then the evidence is INDISPUTABLE that billions do not have said knowledge and therefore, without that knowledge Christ death has become a vain operation. If one believe the all mighty does things with no purpose like suffering and dying on the cross for people whom He knows will have no opportunity to acquire faith, so be it.
Summary: To die for people one knows will not or cannot take advantage of said death is vain stupidity. Like, I'm not going to jump in front of a train to push someone off the track and be killed if I know that 5 minutes later the guy I saved is going to jump in front of the next train and be killed. How stupid is that!!

Thank you for you thoughtful comments. You keep me on my toes.
 

Hopeful

Supporter
From
Arizona
Gender
Male
Messages
2,553
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Then Christ died in vain for billions of people for one is saved by faith in Christ
Abraham never heard of Jesus.
Neither did David, Moses, Joseph, Elijah, Samuel, or Isaac.
Don't you think their names are in the book of life?
and we know billions of people have died without word of Christ.
According to you, but I know anyone who wants to know God will hear of Him and of His gifts for them.
You CAN'T be save by faith in CHRIST if you never heard of Him. (unless, like others you propose another gospel of salvation. (Gal. 1:8)
You won't hear of Him if you don't want to hear from Him.
I gave factual documentation. It is unreasonable for one to suppose that people living on another continent in 100 A.D. had heard of Christ. Please tell me how a 1218 North American indian heard of Christ?
I suppose all the mission that went to remote areas to evangelize were lying when they said the people they spoke to never heard of Christ.
Had they wanted to know a God, they would have heard of the God.
Even if they hadn't heard of God or of Jesus, men will still be judged by their own consciences.
It will be a fair judgement.
Those without Law will be judged without the Law.
Those without the gospel will be judged without the gospel.
 
Last edited:

Fastfredy0

Supporter
From
Chandler, Tx
Gender
Male
Messages
1,349
Joined
May 4, 2020
When Jesus said He so loved the world, He meant everyone that lives in it.
Agape love is defined as .... is unconcerned with the self and concerned with the greatest good of another. Agape isn’t born just out of emotions, feelings, familiarity, or attraction, but from the will and as a choice.
https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-terms/what-does-agape-love-really-mean-in-the-bible.html

It is an unusual way of Christ to show love (favor for greatest good). So, for example, God knows the 1282 North American Indian will never hear the gospel and therefore will have no opportunity to be saved. This, according to you, is love (favor for greatest good) of God for the Indian to condemn him to suffering in hell for eternity. This is the GREATEST GOD (love of God). But wait, there's more, there are billions more like this man who, for their own good, will be suffering in hell having no opportunity to by saved.

Aside: There are theologians who define degrees of love. They quote verses like the rain falls on the good and the bad. If ones means God loves everyone without exception in varying degrees, then that I could agree with.

Again, if I loved someone (favor for the greatest good) I know a way to save that person. Since God's love and knowledge finitely exceeds mine, He could save everyone if He loved (favor them to greatest degree). But He does not do it so this contradicts the definition of agape love.
 
Top