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Tasted Death for every Man !

Hopeful

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Re: I assume you therefore agree that God did not taste death of those He hates?


So, your answer was a little hard to understand. I think you are saying God loves (favors) those He hates (disfavors) ... and therefore hates (disfavors) those He loves (favors).
Interesting ...


Agreed, your answer seems to be a contradiction and therefore cannot be entirely true. Something needs adjusting.



How can a 'gift' be free if you have to do something to obtain it. This is a contradiction (again).
Definition of gift: a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present.

Re: How is the 1282 Indian saved that Christ died for?

So, people were saved by works alone? Do you have a scripture to prove that A person born after Christ can be saved without knowing Christ? (aside: so far only have gotten 2 answers: 1) the Talmud says we can't break 7 laws and (2) Romans 1:20 somehow). Can people still be saved by "works alone"? If a person can be saved by "works alone", would it not be advisable to not tell that saved person about Christ as that might jeopardize his salvation.



An obtuse statement. I agreed (I think).



How does God go "to the end of time" if He does not control our 'free choices' and cannot know what someone will choose when people who are yet to be born are currently NOTHING? In other words, if NOTHING (what we are before we exist) can relay knowledge to someone, then the NOTHING must be SOMETHING. This is a contradiction as only NOTHING COMES FROM NOTHING..."Ex nihilo nihil fit". (Maybe God has a mini-big-bang with each non-existent spirit to determine what it will decide? )
(Aside: I am not saying God cannot go to the end of time, but given your constraints I don't believe He can as you make God dependent upon non-existent men for knowledge)


So, God does not know the future? God is not All Knowing? This would contradict God's immutability as He knows now what at one time He did not know. His wisdom would be improved as wisdom is dependent on knowledge. An continuous improvement in wisdom means God is NOT All Wise. Can a being be eternal if that being changes. God would be now what He was not at another time as He has changed. He is different, He has a different understanding. God is, as a result of your statement, dependent upon man for knowledge and upon time for knowledge. God is not independent of time, but trapped in time, though time be created by God. Interesting. Perhaps God didn't create time? Some other being created time and put God in it; but the would make that being God and our God a mere creation.
I'm not continuing this any further.
 

jaybo

 
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If, as you say, Christ is no longer in the world, aren't you separated from Him?
Thankfully, though, He is still in the world in the guise of the Comforter.
No I am not separated from Christ. "He is still in the world in the guise of the Comforter" is not scriptural.

John 8:21, " Then Jesus said to them again, “I am going away, and you will look for me but will die in your sin. Where I am going you cannot come.”

John 14:2, "There are many dwelling places in my Father’s house. Otherwise, I would have told you, because I am going away to make ready a place for you."

John 16:7, But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I am going away. For if I do not go away, the Advocate will not come to you, but if I go, I will send him to you."

Hebrews 1:3-4, " The Son is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, and he sustains all things by his powerful word, and so when he had accomplished cleansing for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. Thus he became so far better than the angels as he has inherited a name superior to theirs."

When you have read Scripture you will have a clearer understanding of God's truth. a) Jesus is not in the world and b) He sent the Holy Spirit to be with us until He returns. Jesus is not "in the guise of the Comforter", never was, and never will be.

Read your Bible!!!
 

Hopeful

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No I am not separated from Christ. "He is still in the world in the guise of the Comforter" is not scriptural.

John 8:21, " Then Jesus said to them again, “I am going away, and you will look for me but will die in your sin. Where I am going you cannot come.”

John 14:2, "There are many dwelling places in my Father’s house. Otherwise, I would have told you, because I am going away to make ready a place for you."

John 16:7, But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I am going away. For if I do not go away, the Advocate will not come to you, but if I go, I will send him to you."

Hebrews 1:3-4, " The Son is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, and he sustains all things by his powerful word, and so when he had accomplished cleansing for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. Thus he became so far better than the angels as he has inherited a name superior to theirs."

When you have read Scripture you will have a clearer understanding of God's truth. a) Jesus is not in the world and b) He sent the Holy Spirit to be with us until He returns. Jesus is not "in the guise of the Comforter", never was, and never will be.

Read your Bible!!!
I don't know if that was a double post, or not, but it seems I already answered it.
Christ is in me, via the Comforter.
 

for_his_glory

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I must also be the only one you know of that doesn't commit sin.
The opportunity to follow suit is still on the table for you.

The old "me" was of Adam's seed, but the new "me" is of God's seed.
It is written..."For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." (Gal 3:27)
It isn't "my" skin and bones anymore.
Apparently you did not understand that of what I asked that was literal in post #1044 as you said you were literally nailed to a cross as the same as Jesus, died and God raised you from your grave.

Our flesh (skin and bones) has nothing to do with being Spiritually born again from above as our skin and bones will return back to the dust of the ground from whence it came and our spirit/breath/soul returns back to God who made us a living soul.

God is Spirit and we worship Him in Spirit and truth. When we break that fellowship as Adam did then it becomes a type of death in that we no longer have that Spiritual relationship with God which leaves us spiritually dead inside.

The Biblical definition of spiritual death is the absence of having spiritual life, which is only available in the Lord Jesus Christ. When Adam broke that fellowship he had with God by being disobedient he broke that Spiritual relationship with God and became Spiritually dead within his inner man.


Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

1John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
 

for_his_glory

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Faith in what? What is the content of faith for those that never heard of Christ that saves them. I keep asking and you can't/won't provide a scriptural answer ... let alone a non-scriptural answer. You have a non-scriptural doctrine. You preach another gospel of salvation: Faith without CONTENT. Those who have not heard of Christ, believe in something (you don't know what) and be saved.

Well, I tried.

Jer. 9:24 But the one who boasts should boast in this, that he understands and knows Me— that I am Yahweh, showing faithful love, justice, and righteousness on the earth, for I delight in these things.
For the person who never heard of Christ ... let him boast in NOTHING for he cannot understand and know God.
God has always been Alpha and Omega and has shown Himself to mankind as no one is without excuse in not seeking after Him. Since the days of Adam's fall many have fallen away from faith (God) as they seek not after Him.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

No one hopes for anything other than what the world can give them as from generation to generation beginning with the time of Adam man has hardened their heart towards God. God draws those unto Jesus in whom He tasted death for all the world that by Jesus the whole world could be saved, but many refuse to be drawn as they do not allow themselves to hear God calling all to repentance.
 

for_his_glory

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No: after my old self was killed on the cross with Jesus, and buried with Jesus, it was raised with Him to walk in newness of life.
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom 6:3-6)
"For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:7)
I am free from sin.
I agree with this, but we are still housed in this fleshly body as we have not yet become immortal, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58, and we need to be walking in the Spirit 24/7, but yet we fall short at times. This is why Jesus makes intercession for us before the Father. Grace does not give us a license to sin, but when we do mess up at times His grace will always forgive us.

Below are scriptures you can read of the sins of the Prophets and Apostles, but yet they by faith were found righteous before the Lord.

Genesis 9:20-21 Noah became drunk on the wine he made from the vineyard and exposed his nakedness

Genesis 12:10-20 Abraham lied about Sarah being his wife as he traded her for his own life as He was weak in the flesh even after the promises God gave him

Genesis 26:1-10 Isaac repeated the same sin of Abraham as he lied about Rebekah as he was also weak in the flesh as he feared for his own life even after the promises God gave him.

Numbers 20:1-12 Moses sinned against God in a moment of anger and a laspe of judgement that led him to not be able to bring the congregation into the land which God gave to all of them.

1 Kings 16:31; 21:25-26 Elijah became depressed and suicidal in a moment of human weakness when dealing with King Ahab and Jezebel as they did everything in their power to come threaten Elijah.

Genesis 25:19-34; 27:1-41 Jacob tricked his brother into giving him the birthright of the

1 Kings 11 Solomon turned away from God knowing God's commands, but ending up disobeying them

2 Samuel chapters 11, 12, 24 David called for a census, commits adultery with Bathsheba and has her husband killed.

Romans 7:13-25 Paul's struggle with sin in the flesh after his conversion.

Paul opposes Peter in Galatians 2:11-14 for not walking uprightly according to the truth of the Gospel.


Their sins were forgiven as they were still considered righteous and faithful after repenting of their sin of disobedience as all of us are who are in the Lord.
 

Fastfredy0

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God draws those unto Jesus in whom He tasted death for all the world that by Jesus the whole world could be saved, but many refuse to be drawn as they do not allow themselves to hear God calling all to repentance.
You teach that a man can be saved without knowledge of Christ but won't say how except to quote:
Romans 1:20 For ever since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through His workmanship [all His creation, the wonderful things that He has made], so that they [who fail to believe and trust in Him] are without excuse and without defense. AMP
.... as the AMP bible states ...who fail to believe and trust in Him ...

Point me to a URL that tells me how one can be saved today without knowledge of Christ, please. Your verses are not germane.

The following are verses about salvation and they ALL MENTION CHRIST and that those who do NOT KNOW CHRIST are condemned. Thus, the 1282 North American Indian and billions like him that never heard of Christ are in hell. Thus Christ did not taste death (die with the expectation that those He knew would never hear about Him) for everyone.
  1. John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
  2. John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
  3. 1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
Premise 1: John 3:36 he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Premise 2: there are people who died and never heard of Christ (evidence of this is OVER WHELMING)
Conclusion: God did not taste (die for) everyone unless
 

Hopeful

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Apparently you did not understand that of what I asked that was literal in post #1044 as you said you were literally nailed to a cross as the same as Jesus, died and God raised you from your grave.

Our flesh (skin and bones) has nothing to do with being Spiritually born again from above as our skin and bones will return back to the dust of the ground from whence it came and our spirit/breath/soul returns back to God who made us a living soul.

God is Spirit and we worship Him in Spirit and truth. When we break that fellowship as Adam did then it becomes a type of death in that we no longer have that Spiritual relationship with God which leaves us spiritually dead inside.

The Biblical definition of spiritual death is the absence of having spiritual life, which is only available in the Lord Jesus Christ. When Adam broke that fellowship he had with God by being disobedient he broke that Spiritual relationship with God and became Spiritually dead within his inner man.


Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

1John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
"All" means all.
It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
If you have only been "spiritually" reborn, I urge you to get "totally" reborn.
 

Hopeful

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I agree with this, but we are still housed in this fleshly body as we have not yet become immortal, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58, and we need to be walking in the Spirit 24/7, but yet we fall short at times. This is why Jesus makes intercession for us before the Father. Grace does not give us a license to sin, but when we do mess up at times His grace will always forgive us.
Skin and bones can't make you commit sin.
By assigning the blame of your ongoing sin to the flesh, skin, and bones, you announce to everyone that you don't walk in the Spirit.
Personally, my skin and bones, along with my heart and mind, are the Lord's possessions.
ALL the parts of the old me have passed away and been made new. (2 Cor 5:17)
They don't commit sin.
Below are scriptures you can read of the sins of the Prophets and Apostles, but yet they by faith were found righteous before the Lord.
Genesis 9:20-21 Noah became drunk on the wine he made from the vineyard and exposed his nakedness
Genesis 12:10-20 Abraham lied about Sarah being his wife as he traded her for his own life as He was weak in the flesh even after the promises God gave him
Genesis 26:1-10 Isaac repeated the same sin of Abraham as he lied about Rebekah as he was also weak in the flesh as he feared for his own life even after the promises God gave him.
Numbers 20:1-12 Moses sinned against God in a moment of anger and a laspe of judgement that led him to not be able to bring the congregation into the land which God gave to all of them.
1 Kings 16:31; 21:25-26 Elijah became depressed and suicidal in a moment of human weakness when dealing with King Ahab and Jezebel as they did everything in their power to come threaten Elijah.
Genesis 25:19-34; 27:1-41 Jacob tricked his brother into giving him the birthright of the
1 Kings 11 Solomon turned away from God knowing God's commands, but ending up disobeying them
2 Samuel chapters 11, 12, 24 David called for a census, commits adultery with Bathsheba and has her husband killed.
By citing the sins of OT man who could not yet walk in the Spirit as your roll-models, you do yourself a grave injustice.
Romans 7:13-25 Paul's struggle with sin in the flesh after his conversion.
That is not true.
Paul opposes Peter in Galatians 2:11-14 for not walking uprightly according to the truth of the Gospel.
Sure did, and what was Peter's sin?
Walking in the ordinances of the Law of Moses.
Their sins were forgiven as they were still considered righteous and faithful after repenting of their sin of disobedience as all of us are who are in the Lord.
You are in error on the whole topic of NT walking in the Spirit instead of in the flesh, and life without sin.
Best to start a new thread if you want to really talk about it...and end up free.
 

for_his_glory

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You teach that a man can be saved without knowledge of Christ but won't say how except to quote:
Romans 1:20 For ever since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through His workmanship [all His creation, the wonderful things that He has made], so that they [who fail to believe and trust in Him] are without excuse and without defense. AMP
.... as the AMP bible states ...who fail to believe and trust in Him ...

Point me to a URL that tells me how one can be saved today without knowledge of Christ, please. Your verses are not germane.

The following are verses about salvation and they ALL MENTION CHRIST and that those who do NOT KNOW CHRIST are condemned. Thus, the 1282 North American Indian and billions like him that never heard of Christ are in hell. Thus Christ did not taste death (die with the expectation that those He knew would never hear about Him) for everyone.
  1. John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
  2. John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
  3. 1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
Premise 1: John 3:36 he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Premise 2: there are people who died and never heard of Christ (evidence of this is OVER WHELMING)
Conclusion: God did not taste (die for) everyone unless
There is no URL, but only the word of God.

It seems that you might not understanding Romans 1:20, especial what is written "so that they are without excuse" KJV. When reading the full context we see why many from generation to generation have turned away from Him, even though Jesus tasted death for all of them, but they refuse to believe there is a God or that of His Son Christ Jesus as they have made other gods unto themselves. Even atheist acknowledge His name, but yet do not believe in God or Christ Jesus. The name of Christ Jesus has been proclaimed in all the world, but yet many refuse to acknowledge Him, but have heard His name.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

When you first heard the name of Jesus did you have Spiritual knowledge of who He is? None of us did, but accepted Him by blind faith at first and then we came into the knowledge of Christ.

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Matthew 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

The key word is seek, but not all seek after His name.
 

for_his_glory

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If you have only been "spiritually" reborn, I urge you to get "totally" reborn.
What do you mean by "totally" reborn?

What more is there then being Spiritually reborn again according to John 3:5-7 and picking up your cross following in His footsteps as we learn of Him and God's will for our life?
 

Hopeful

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What do you mean by "totally" reborn?

What more is there then being Spiritually reborn again according to John 3:5-7 and picking up your cross following in His footsteps as we learn of Him and God's will for our life?
"Totally", as opposed to your "partial" rebirth.
You credit, ensconce, assign sin to the skin and bones of the temple of the Holy Spirit.
I can't do such a thing, as the skin and bones of His temple is sanctified and meet for the Lord's work.
 

Fastfredy0

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There is no URL, but only the word of God.
Actually, there are URL that explain your position. Few in a positive light.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/what-happens-to-those-who-never-hear-gospel/
Speaks about "What Happens to Those Who Never Hear the Gospel?"
Says you are part of what is called 'inclusivsim" which is is based on a belief in the efficacy of general revelation for a salvific relationship to God”.
Inclusivists (you) sometimes employ Romans 1:18–23 to highlight the importance of general revelation, on closer reading the text actually supports the exclusivist view. Paul’s argument is that God’s revelation in nature is sufficient only to condemn, not to save.

John 3:36 he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Explain this verse ... how one who does not believe in Christ (all those who died without hearing of Christ) will not see life (salvation); yet, you say they can.

For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? . . . So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. (Rom. 10:13–15, 17)


The chain of logic in Paul’s mind is straightforward: (from same site as above)
  1. The only way to be saved is to call on Christ’s name.
  2. The only way to call on Christ’s name is to believe the gospel.
  3. The only way to believe the gospel is to hear the gospel.
  4. The only way to hear the gospel is to be told the gospel.
The reality of another means of salvation besides faith in “the word of Christ” is difficult to square with this passage.

Also no response (exogesis) of:
  1. John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
  2. 1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
I'll exegete your verses in regards to salvation to those who have not heard of Christ...
Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Matthew 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
There is no mention of how one is saved in these verses. At best one could assume that if one seeks God there is a way to be saved. But Romans 3:10-17 tells us NO ONE SEEKS GOD so the assumption is void.

It seems that you might not understanding Romans 1:20, especial what is written "so that they are without excuse" KJV. When reading the full context we see why many from generation to generation have turned away from Him, even though Jesus tasted death for all of them
No where in Romans 1:20-25 does it say "Jesus tasted death for all of them". You can't find Jesus or Christ in the verses so your statement is false. (Aside: show me mention of Christ in these verses which you say state show "Jesus tasted death for all of them", please. Verses supposedly show Christ dying of everyone that don't mention Christ .... I don't see how you can propose such an interpretation.

but they refuse to believe there is a God or that of His Son Christ Jesus as they have made other gods unto themselves.
Agreed. All those who have not heard of Christ refuse to believe. Again, NO ONE SEEKS GOD. It is impossible to be saved by belief in Christ without knowledge of Christ. The logic is simple enough.

Romans 1:20, especial what is written "so that they are without excuse" KJV
Agreed. Nothing here about Christ "tasting death for everyone".



If Christ died for (tasted) death for everyone then either:
1) Everyone will be saved
2) There must be a condition attached to his death to be appropriated to secure salvation. If the condition cannot possibly be met, then "Christ tasting death for everyone without exception", if true, is a hollow, meaningless and efficaciously worthless to those who cannot possibly take advantage of the offer. I say the condition is faith in Christ, you seem to say there's another possible condition which is explained in Romans 1:20-25 but won't explain what those who have not heard of Christ must do to be saved. Those verses just say they are without excuse and explain why they are without excuse. No mention of what to do to be saved, none... and you can't/won't point out what they must do to be saved from those verses.
 

for_his_glory

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Skin and bones can't make you commit sin.
By assigning the blame of your ongoing sin to the flesh, skin, and bones, you announce to everyone that you don't walk in the Spirit.
Personally, my skin and bones, along with my heart and mind, are the Lord's possessions.
ALL the parts of the old me have passed away and been made new. (2 Cor 5:17)
They don't commit sin.

By citing the sins of OT man who could not yet walk in the Spirit as your roll-models, you do yourself a grave injustice.

That is not true.

Sure did, and what was Peter's sin?
Walking in the ordinances of the Law of Moses.

You are in error on the whole topic of NT walking in the Spirit instead of in the flesh, and life without sin.
Best to start a new thread if you want to really talk about it...and end up free.
First do not tell others they are in error just because they do not agree with you as this is a violation of the ToS 1.1 and 1.3 which I will let go for now.

Those Prophets of the OT I showed you with scripture walked by faith in which all of us do, but yet they fell short at times just like we all do.

In the OT the Holy Spirit came on them convicting them of their sin even though they were of faith in God, but yet could not follow all the laws which had no saving provisions in them. In part the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin even though we are now indwelled with the Holy Spirit and are made Spiritually renewed in our inner man that has been changed.

We do not run around willfully sinning as there is no more sacrifice for sin, Hebrew 10:26-27. Being that we are yet housed in this fleshly body where the sin nature dwells we will unintentionally mess up at times like the Prophets and Apostles did as the flesh can not be made perfect as the tongue can not be tamed. When we confess our mistakes before Christ He will always forgive us and set our feet straight again.

The sin nature dwells in the flesh and the flesh wants what it wants as even Paul struggle with sin in his flesh after he was converted, Romans 7:21-23. Our spirit/soul is made righteous before the Lord, but not our flesh that will always sin. (Not talking about our actual flesh and bones.)
 

for_his_glory

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"Totally", as opposed to your "partial" rebirth.
You credit, ensconce, assign sin to the skin and bones of the temple of the Holy Spirit.
I can't do such a thing, as the skin and bones of His temple is sanctified and meet for the Lord's work.
Please show me the scripture where it says our skin and bones are sanctified.

1Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Cor 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

It's our spirit/soul that makes up the inner man that has been totally Spiritually renewed through the Spiritual rebirth from above. There is no such thing as a partial rebirth. I have nor ever have said anything about our skin and bones as they will fade away turning to dust when we physically die so how can they sanctified by God. All things of God are Spiritual from above, thus us being Spiritually reborn again in order to inherit the kingdom of God.

What you are teaching is sinless perfection that is not found in scripture, but was taught by John Wesley, Charles Wesley, John Fletcher of the 18th century in whom founded the "Holiness movement". What they teach about sinless perfection are only taught in their own theology as they take scripture out of context to support their theories and man made doctrines.
 

for_his_glory

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Actually, there are URL that explain your position. Few in a positive light.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/what-happens-to-those-who-never-hear-gospel/
Speaks about "What Happens to Those Who Never Hear the Gospel?"
Says you are part of what is called 'inclusivsim" which is is based on a belief in the efficacy of general revelation for a salvific relationship to God”.
Inclusivists (you) sometimes employ Romans 1:18–23 to highlight the importance of general revelation, on closer reading the text actually supports the exclusivist view. Paul’s argument is that God’s revelation in nature is sufficient only to condemn, not to save.

John 3:36 he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Explain this verse ... how one who does not believe in Christ (all those who died without hearing of Christ) will not see life (salvation); yet, you say they can.

For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? . . . So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. (Rom. 10:13–15, 17)


The chain of logic in Paul’s mind is straightforward: (from same site as above)
  1. The only way to be saved is to call on Christ’s name.
  2. The only way to call on Christ’s name is to believe the gospel.
  3. The only way to believe the gospel is to hear the gospel.
  4. The only way to hear the gospel is to be told the gospel.
The reality of another means of salvation besides faith in “the word of Christ” is difficult to square with this passage.

Also no response (exogesis) of:
  1. John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
  2. 1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
I'll exegete your verses in regards to salvation to those who have not heard of Christ...

There is no mention of how one is saved in these verses. At best one could assume that if one seeks God there is a way to be saved. But Romans 3:10-17 tells us NO ONE SEEKS GOD so the assumption is void.


No where in Romans 1:20-25 does it say "Jesus tasted death for all of them". You can't find Jesus or Christ in the verses so your statement is false. (Aside: show me mention of Christ in these verses which you say state show "Jesus tasted death for all of them", please. Verses supposedly show Christ dying of everyone that don't mention Christ .... I don't see how you can propose such an interpretation.


Agreed. All those who have not heard of Christ refuse to believe. Again, NO ONE SEEKS GOD. It is impossible to be saved by belief in Christ without knowledge of Christ. The logic is simple enough.


Agreed. Nothing here about Christ "tasting death for everyone".



If Christ died for (tasted) death for everyone then either:
1) Everyone will be saved
2) There must be a condition attached to his death to be appropriated to secure salvation. If the condition cannot possibly be met, then "Christ tasting death for everyone without exception", if true, is a hollow, meaningless and efficaciously worthless to those who cannot possibly take advantage of the offer. I say the condition is faith in Christ, you seem to say there's another possible condition which is explained in Romans 1:20-25 but won't explain what those who have not heard of Christ must do to be saved. Those verses just say they are without excuse and explain why they are without excuse. No mention of what to do to be saved, none... and you can't/won't point out what they must do to be saved from those verses.
I'm not going to get into all of that as I have read it before a while back.

What it all boils down to is that Jesus tasted death for everyone and as John 3:16 uses the words "whosoever believes" will have eternal life with Him. How can we judge the ways others come to believe in Him as we all have to believe in the name of Jesus before any redeeming power can be made in our life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God gives everyone throughout the world the opportunity to repent and turn back to Him, but many refuse His call as many are called, but few are chosen.

The Bible is not hard to understand if it's read in the full context without adding to or taking away from what has already been written.
 

Fastfredy0

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I'm not going to get into all of that as I have read it before a while back.
... and not offered an explanation to my evidence I presented to vindicate your case in my opinion.
Aside: I thought you were going to let this subject go, to which I agreed.

What it all boils down to is that Jesus tasted death for everyone and as John 3:16 uses the words "whosoever believes" will have eternal life with Him. How can we judge the ways others come to believe in Him as we all have to believe in the name of Jesus before any redeeming power can be made in our life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Your own verses vindicates my point.
Premise 1: John 3:16 says "whoever believes" will have eternal life
Premise 2: John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Premise 3: You cannot have faith in someone you know NOTHING about. I.E. I can't belief Joe Blow is 5'11" if I never heard of him
Conclusion: We a saved by belief in Christ, we are condemned if we do not believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Those who have not heard of Christ therefore cannot have faith leading to salvation so God did not taste death (die) for those people as letting oneself be kill for no purpose is simply suicide.

Simple logic painstakingly presented based on scripture.

You have presented NO SCRIPTURE, though asked over and over, to state WHAT ONE MUST DO TO BE SAVED IF YOU HAVE NOT HEARD OF CHRIST. You preach another gospel generally for those who have not heard of Christ, but without specifics. Galatians 1:8
 
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Hopeful

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First do not tell others they are in error just because they do not agree with you as this is a violation of the ToS 1.1 and 1.3 which I will let go for now.
Thanks for that.
Those Prophets of the OT I showed you with scripture walked by faith in which all of us do, but yet they fell short at times just like we all do.
You fail to see that they could not be reborn of God's seed and walk after the Spirit instead of after the flesh in the OT.
They cannot do what we of the NT can do.
In the OT the Holy Spirit came on them convicting them of their sin even though they were of faith in God, but yet could not follow all the laws which had no saving provisions in them. In part the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin even though we are now indwelled with the Holy Spirit and are made Spiritually renewed in our inner man that has been changed.
The Spirit of God will not dwell in a polluted temple.
That is why some of the OT had the Spirit only for a short while and not permanently like we can now...if our repentance from sin was real.
We do not run around willfully sinning as there is no more sacrifice for sin, Hebrew 10:26-27. Being that we are yet housed in this fleshly body where the sin nature dwells we will unintentionally mess up at times like the Prophets and Apostles did as the flesh can not be made perfect as the tongue can not be tamed. When we confess our mistakes before Christ He will always forgive us and set our feet straight again.
All sin is willful, and again you are crediting the flesh...skin and bones... with the ability to commit/harbor sins committed by the mind.
If your hands are really committing sins against your will, maybe you should take Jesus' advice and cut them off.
That is what I did when I was crucified with Christ: I put the old man to death. (Rom 6:6, Gal 5:24)
he sin nature dwells in the flesh
Not is those reborn from God's seed.
All parts of them have been made new. (2 Cor 5:17)
and the flesh wants what it wants as even Paul struggle with sin in his flesh after he was converted, Romans 7:21-23. Our spirit/soul is made righteous before the Lord, but not our flesh that will always sin. (Not talking about our actual flesh and bones.)
You are mistaken about Paul.
In fact, Paul supplies the answer to Rom 7:21-23 with Ro 8:2.

If you are not talking about your skin and bones, what do you consider is your flesh that causes your ongoing sin?
 

Hopeful

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Please show me the scripture where it says our skin and bones are sanctified.

1Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Cor 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
Thanks for answering your own question.
Was not the temple sanctified before the Lord occupied it?
The same thing happens to us before the God of heaven and earth will dwell in us.
It's our spirit/soul that makes up the inner man that has been totally Spiritually renewed through the Spiritual rebirth from above. There is no such thing as a partial rebirth. I have nor ever have said anything about our skin and bones as they will fade away turning to dust when we physically die so how can they sanctified by God. All things of God are Spiritual from above, thus us being Spiritually reborn again in order to inherit the kingdom of God.
If there is no such thing as a partial rebirth, why do you keep writing saying only the inside is made new or sanctified?
The skin and bones may fade away, but Jesus had the same skin and bones we have and He was sanctified throughout.
What you are teaching is sinless perfection that is not found in scripture, but was taught by John Wesley, Charles Wesley, John Fletcher of the 18th century in whom founded the "Holiness movement". What they teach about sinless perfection are only taught in their own theology as they take scripture out of context to support their theories and man made doctrines.
It is found all over scripture.
It is the reason Christ came to take away the sin of the world.
So we could walk free of the devil and sin.
It is written..."Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his.
And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)
Paul doesn't command the impossible.
Neither did Peter, in 1 Peter 4:1..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;"
 
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