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Tasted Death for every Man !

for_his_glory

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You CANNOT turn back to Christ if you have never heard of Him. It is logically impossible.
Just as I cannot talk to a Martian if I never met him. It is logically impossible.
I have tried over and over to explain this, but you do not understand it so time for me to walk away and pray the Holy Spirit will reveal it to you.

God bless
 

for_his_glory

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You fail to see that they could not be reborn of God's seed and walk after the Spirit instead of after the flesh in the OT.
They cannot do what we of the NT can do.
Well then according to what you say here, no one in the days before Christ have been saved and are all damned to hell fire. Wow!!!

I'm done with this. You have a good day and God bless.
 

Fastfredy0

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I have tried over and over to explain this,
I do not agree as few if any of my verses were explained by you. You even questioned the thought of people dying without hearing of Christ being true or not.

but you do not understand it
One or both of us doesn't understand. Of the two of us, I explained your verses. You did not explain mine.

so time for me to walk away
agreed

and pray the Holy Spirit will reveal it to you.
Perhaps He has. :yes

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that at one time you Gentiles by birth, who are called “Uncircumcision” by those who called themselves “Circumcision,” [itself a mere mark] which is made in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that at that time you were separated from Christ [excluded from any relationship with Him], alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise [with no share in the sacred Messianic promise and without knowledge of God’s agreements], having no hope [in His promise] and [living] in the world without God. AMP

... a entire group of people (Gentiles) who were lost and without hope, without knowledge, separated from Christ, WITHOUT GOD.
This is the 1282 N.A. Indian, one of billions whom God did not taste death for.

Psalm 5:5 You hate all who do evil.
A holy God cannot do good/love that which is evil. He cannot love Satan or Satan's children. God does NOT love evil and the source of evil is men that are NOT in Christ. No one seeks God. No one does good. God MUST intervene.

On and on it goes...

Aside: I do respect your love for our savior.
 

Hopeful

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Well then according to what you say here, no one in the days before Christ have been saved and are all damned to hell fire. Wow!!!

I'm done with this. You have a good day and God bless.
If those of the OT did not have the Law's atonements for sin, they would have all been damned...with just a few exceptions.
Thank God for His amazing grace.
 

brightfame52

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Who are the every man of Heb 2:9 ?

Heb 2:9

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Now the teachers of error would feigningly tell us that this verse means all individuals, world wide without exception of all mankind, but thats not what the text states or means contextually. Now first of all the word man is not in the original:

τὸν δὲ βραχύ τι παρ᾽ ἀγγέλους ἠλαττωμένον βλέπομεν Ἰησοῦν διὰ τὸ πάθημα τοῦ θανάτου δόξῃ καὶ τιμῇ ἐστεφανωμένον ὅπως χάριτι θεοῦ ὑπὲρ παντὸς γεύσηται θανάτου

The word man was added by the translators, so it really states that He tasted death for pas which may mean:

I.
individually
A.
each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything


II.
collectively
A.
some of all types

Its meaning can be that of all of a collective type or the whole of them. As you can see it can even mean some !

When we condsider the word collectively we mean :

a collective body; aggregate. of or characteristic of a group of individuals taken together:

Say for instance all the Sheep of Christ collectively, after all later in the same letter it is written that Christ, after dying or tasting death, that this happened Heb 13:20

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

He rose from the tasting of death Heb 2:9, the Great Shepherd of the Sheep !

So therefore it is contextually appropriate to understand the pas of Heb 2:9 as Christ's Sheep, He tested Death for every one of His Sheep ! Jn 10:11-16

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life[Tasted death] for the sheep.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life[tasted death] for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold[Collection of Sheep], and one shepherd.
Click to expand...
I submit that the very man in Heb 2:9 means all or everyone of His Sheep !
 

Hopeful

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Who are the every man of Heb 2:9 ?

Heb 2:9

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Now the teachers of error would feigningly tell us that this verse means all individuals, world wide without exception of all mankind, but thats not what the text states or means contextually. Now first of all the word man is not in the original:

τὸν δὲ βραχύ τι παρ᾽ ἀγγέλους ἠλαττωμένον βλέπομεν Ἰησοῦν διὰ τὸ πάθημα τοῦ θανάτου δόξῃ καὶ τιμῇ ἐστεφανωμένον ὅπως χάριτι θεοῦ ὑπὲρ παντὸς γεύσηται θανάτου

The word man was added by the translators, so it really states that He tasted death for pas which may mean:

I.
individually
A.
each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything


II.
collectively
A.
some of all types

Its meaning can be that of all of a collective type or the whole of them. As you can see it can even mean some !

When we condsider the word collectively we mean :

a collective body; aggregate. of or characteristic of a group of individuals taken together:

Say for instance all the Sheep of Christ collectively, after all later in the same letter it is written that Christ, after dying or tasting death, that this happened Heb 13:20

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

He rose from the tasting of death Heb 2:9, the Great Shepherd of the Sheep !

So therefore it is contextually appropriate to understand the pas of Heb 2:9 as Christ's Sheep, He tested Death for every one of His Sheep ! Jn 10:11-16


I submit that the very man in Heb 2:9 means all or everyone of His Sheep !
Won't the sacrifice and atonement be available to those who subject themselves to Christ later?
Not every future convert is one of His sheep, yet.

Jesus died for everyone, but not everyone wants His sacrifice on their behalf.
 

brightfame52

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Won't the sacrifice and atonement be available to those who subject themselves to Christ later?
Not every future convert is one of His sheep, yet.

Jesus died for everyone, but not everyone wants His sacrifice on their behalf.
I dont know what you talking about my friend. Did you not understand the post ?
 

Fastfredy0

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I disagree, as the gift is available to all mankind.
What must the person who died who never heard of Christ have done to be saved? Is he saved by works? ...by faith and if so what is the content of that faith?

God knows whom will believe upon His Christ. Why die for those that will not be saved? Explain a death done in vain.
 

Hopeful

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What must the person who died who never heard of Christ have done to be saved? Is he saved by works? ...by faith and if so what is the content of that faith?

God knows whom will believe upon His Christ. Why die for those that will not be saved? Explain a death done in vain.
He needed to live his entire life with a good conscience.

It is written..."For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." (Rom 2:14-15)

As Jesus did die, why alienate some who will be damned with thoughts of..."He didn't die for me"?
 

Fastfredy0

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He needed to live his entire life with a good conscience.
Ah, so one can be saved by "live his entire life with a good conscience". Do you have a scripture for that please?
What EXACTLY does good conscience mean? What if a person lived in "good conscience" for only 80% of his life, would take person be saved? Where is the scripture defining speaking of a "good conscience" leads to salvation?


Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." (Rom 2:14-15)
Ah, so people are saved by obeying the law?
How do you explain: Romans 3: 20 For this reason, no one will be declared righteous in his sight by works of the law, for through the law we become aware of sin.

As Jesus did die, why alienate some who will be damned with thoughts of..."He didn't die for me"?
God 'alienated' some because God did not die for everyone. This is a logical consequence. Then there is the Romans 9:14-26 explanation.
Again, why did God die for those He knows will not believe? Why did He die for the sons of Satan? It's your doctrine that Christ died for everyone. Why did He die for those He knew would not believe? How does a holy God love/"die for" sinful people whose sins will never be forgiven?
 

Hopeful

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Ah, so one can be saved by "live his entire life with a good conscience". Do you have a scripture for that please?
Sure, I'll post it again...
"It is written..."For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." (Rom 2:14-15)
What EXACTLY does good conscience mean? What if a person lived in "good conscience" for only 80% of his life, would take person be saved? Where is the scripture defining speaking of a "good conscience" leads to salvation?
If they have offended their conscience, they will be doomed without our Savior's sacrifice.
Ah, so people are saved by obeying the law?
How do you explain: Romans 3: 20 For this reason, no one will be declared righteous in his sight by works of the law, for through the law we become aware of sin.
By the Mosaic Law, nobody could be "declared righteous".
Fortunately for the OT folks, they also had the Law's atonements for sin.
Without them, all would be condemned...with a few exceptions.
Of course if there were none of the Law's atonements, there would also be no Law to break.
No Law, no knowledge of Law...no conscience of wrong doing.
It is written..."Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." (Rom 3:20)
No Law...no sin.
And we are back to judgement based on conscience.
God 'alienated' some because God did not die for everyone. This is a logical consequence. Then there is the Romans 9:14-26 explanation.
Again, why did God die for those He knows will not believe? Why did He die for the sons of Satan? It's your doctrine that Christ died for everyone. Why did He die for those He knew would not believe? How does a holy God love/"die for" sinful people whose sins will never be forgiven?
Had Pharaoh's heart been inclined to obey God, God would have used someone else to enslave the Jews.
You are blaming God for the condemnation of some, when it is their own fault.
God doesn't damn the salvageable.
He will, however, us them to His own glory.
 

Fastfredy0

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In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." (Rom 2:14-15)
The verses says that God's laws are instinctive (written on their hearts) for those (Gentiles) who have not heard of Christ. That they are without excuse. Nothing here about what they must do to be saved unless you are inferring one can be sinless all their lives by obeying the law.

If they have offended their conscience, they will be doomed without our Savior's sacrifice.
So, some psycho with no conscience can be saved? The secret to the best probability of salvation is to have little to no conscience of wrong doing? Interesting salvific twist IMO.

By the Mosaic Law, nobody could be "declared righteous".
Fortunately for the OT folks, they also had the Law's atonements for sin.
Without them, all would be condemned...with a few exceptions.
Ah, you were saved by works back then? Interesting seeing that in James Abraham was saved by faith. Aside: I am trying to keep to the New Testament to keep things simpler as we have more information with the N.T.


Of course if there were none of the Law's atonements, there would also be no Law to break.
No Law, no knowledge of Law...no conscience of wrong doing.
This contradicts your Roman 2:14-15 that says everyone (I assume everyone) has the law written on their heart.
Maybe a loop hole in which THE LAW has to be the mosiac law and known to the person. I love salvific loop-holes.
I guess there could be psychos with no conscience that would be saved. Ironic, your system saves the worst of us.


No Law...no sin.
And we are back to judgement based on conscience.
So, why evangelize someone who has no law and therefore no sin and a 'good conscience'? Seems you could be changing that person's eternal destiny.
Aside: I think you conveniently differentiate the Mosaic Law for God's commands to do A or B. You can break A or B as long as you have a good conscience about it and as long as you are not aware of the Mosaic Law.


Had Pharaoh's heart been inclined to obey God, God would have used someone else to enslave the Jews.
Scripture says God CAUSED Pharaoh to disobey. Exodus 7:3-4 So no need to find someone else.

You are blaming God for the condemnation of some, when it is their own fault.
Using your example of Pharaoh and referring to Exodus 7:3-4 ... God CAUSED Pharaoh to disobey. So you can't say God didn't cause Pharaoh to falter. Aside: I am not that Pharaoh has no fault.


God doesn't damn the salvageable.
????
Either everyone without exception is salvageable or God is not all powerful. Your statement implies that God lacks the ability to save everyone; that He is not all powerful?

Given your statement ... how do you explain:
Matthew 11:21“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Premise 1: Scripture says Tyre and Sidon were, to use your words, salvageable by God
Premise 2: Scripture says Tyre and Sidon were not, to use your words, salvaged by God
Conclusion: Gods does damn the salvageable.
Explain the error in the above syllogism. If you can't, your statement is false. Seems your points validate the thought that GOD DID NOT TASTE DEATH FOR EVERYONE.
 

Hopeful

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The verses says that God's laws are instinctive (written on their hearts) for those (Gentiles) who have not heard of Christ. That they are without excuse. Nothing here about what they must do to be saved unless you are inferring one can be sinless all their lives by obeying the law.
How can they obey something they have never heard of?
If there is no Law to break, there is no sin. For by the Law is the knowledge OF sin.
So, some psycho with no conscience can be saved? The secret to the best probability of salvation is to have little to no conscience of wrong doing? Interesting salvific twist IMO.
Will any mentally challenged man be saved?
How about three year olds?
Again, No knowledge...no sin.
Ah, you were saved by works back then? Interesting seeing that in James Abraham was saved by faith. Aside: I am trying to keep to the New Testament to keep things simpler as we have more information with the N.T.
No, the "works" of the Law are unnecessary.
They were the "works" Paul wrote against.
If you are referring to repentance from sin, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, receiving the Holy Spirit, and enduring till the end as "works", they are indeed necessary for salvation.
This contradicts your Roman 2:14-15 that says everyone (I assume everyone) has the law written on their heart.
Maybe a loop hole in which THE LAW has to be the mosiac law and known to the person. I love salvific loop-holes.
I guess there could be psychos with no conscience that would be saved. Ironic, your system saves the worst of us.
The only ones with the Law written on their hearts are the ones who love God above all else and their neighbors as themselves.
Those who live without going against their consciences will be saved.
So, why evangelize someone who has no law and therefore no sin and a 'good conscience'?
Folks who have a good conscience can be of immense service to God.
Seems you could be changing that person's eternal destiny.
Aside: I think you conveniently differentiate the Mosaic Law for God's commands to do A or B. You can break A or B as long as you have a good conscience about it and as long as you are not aware of the Mosaic Law.
If you break A or B you won't have a good conscience.
Scripture says God CAUSED Pharaoh to disobey. Exodus 7:3-4 So no need to find someone else.
Using your example of Pharaoh and referring to Exodus 7:3-4 ... God CAUSED Pharaoh to disobey. So you can't say God didn't cause Pharaoh to falter. Aside: I am not that Pharaoh has no fault.
God used what was available.
????
Either everyone without exception is salvageable or God is not all powerful. Your statement implies that God lacks the ability to save everyone; that He is not all powerful?
I don't know how you can make either statement.
Everyone is salvageable until they offend their conscience...or the Law.
Given your statement ... how do you explain:
Matthew 11:21“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
I think you are trying to blame God for not having the miracles that occurred during Jesus' walk, for the destruction of Tyre and Sidon.
I don't agree.
premise 1: Scripture says Tyre and Sidon were, to use your words, salvageable by God
Premise 2: Scripture says Tyre and Sidon were not, to use your words, salvaged by God
Conclusion: Gods does damn the salvageable.
Explain the error in the above syllogism. If you can't, your statement is false. Seems your points validate the thought that GOD DID NOT TASTE DEATH FOR EVERYONE.
If the citizens of Tyre and Sidon had never offended their consciences, they would have been salvageable.
But they did offend their own morals...and were damned
 

Fastfredy0

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How can they obey something they have never heard of?
The law is written on there hearts according to Romans 1. Thus, they are without excuse. (Romans 1:20)
God says they are without excuse, yet you try to excuse them.

If there is no Law to break, there is no sin. For by the Law is the knowledge OF sin.
Same answer as I just stated.

Will any mentally challenged man be saved?
How about three year olds?
Again, No knowledge...no sin.
Well, I have been limiting the discussion to those that have reached the age of accountability to keep things simpler.


The only ones with the Law written on their hearts are the ones who love God above all else and their neighbors as themselves.
We disagree.


Those who live without going against their consciences will be saved.
This is works salvation. Sin is defined as not obeying God. Those the sin without being in Christ go to hell. Their sin is not excused just because they don't acknowledge it with their conscience, this is your invented doctrine.


Folks who have a good conscience can be of immense service to God.
God needs us for nothing. He get nothing from us. All our works are filthy rags. Job 35:7-8, Acts 17:25
Therefore, your premise is faulty.
 

Hopeful

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What you are saying the bible doesnt teach, and you not listening to me as I testify to what it does teach.
He died...right?
Was His loving, graceful act not for everyone?
If ANY MAN wants eternal life, he can now partake in the life God has provided.
There are no exclusions.
 

Hopeful

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The law is written on there hearts according to Romans 1. Thus, they are without excuse. (Romans 1:20)
God says they are without excuse, yet you try to excuse them.
Why would I need to excuse those who act on the law in their hearts?
They need no excuse...as I have been pointing out.
Same answer as I just stated.
Well, I have been limiting the discussion to those that have reached the age of accountability to keep things simpler.
Don't those who have not reached the age of accountability go to heaven without living a life with knowledge of God, Jesus, or the Law...if they die young?
We disagree.
Who else but those with the law written on their heart will live life pleasing to God?
This is works salvation. Sin is defined as not obeying God. Those the sin without being in Christ go to hell. Their sin is not excused just because they don't acknowledge it with their conscience, this is your invented doctrine.
Call it what you will.
Obeying God is a work, but not the "works of the Law" that Paul opposed.
Let us see James view of "sin"...
It is written..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:14-15)
If nobody tells you to wear clothes, (south seas islanders of the 1600's), it is not a sin, as it is just normal behavior...until someone tells them the "law".
Without a law to break, all things are legal.
It is written..."Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled." (Titus 1:15)
No Law...no sin.

I will also add that those who sin are never "in" Christ as there will never be any sin in Christ.
Sinners are outside of Christ. (1 John 3:9-10)


God needs us for nothing. He get nothing from us. All our works are filthy rags. Job 35:7-8, Acts 17:25
Therefore, your premise is faulty.
I'm sorry you feel so unusable and unimportant by Christ.
I personally rejoice when I realize I am in the right spot at the right time to make a difference on earth.
And I give God the glory...something He does like and want.
 

Fastfredy0

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If ANY MAN wants eternal life, he can now partake in the life God has provided.
There are no exclusions.
Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation, and that Christianity is the only true religion or worldview.
  • John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe [that would be anyone that never heard of Christ] stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
  • John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
  • Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men [it is obvious the knowledge of Christ has NOT been given to all men] by which we must be saved.
  • 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
  • 1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
Premise 1: scripture says: hoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Premise 2: Many have never heard of Christ
Conclusion: There are exclusions. Christ did not taste (die for) death for everyone
 

Fastfredy0

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They need no excuse...as I have been pointing out.
I have pointed out that through the works of the law no one is saved per scripture. You still maintain one can be saved by being a good person (clear conscience)

Who else but those with the law written on their heart will live life pleasing to God?
no relevant to salvation for everyone being possible

If nobody tells you to wear clothes, (south seas islanders of the 1600's), it is not a sin
Irrelevant. It is what God commands, not rules of men.

Without a law to break, all things are legal.
Irrelevant. God law is written on everyone's heart per Romans 1



No Law...no sin.
Ridiculous


I'm sorry you feel so unusable and unimportant by Christ.
You misunderstand the scripture I sent.
There is more than the giving of things to Christ (though we give Him nothing) that would make me important to Christ. I am important because He is glorified by His giving to me, not His receiving from me. Have you not read that it is better to give than receive. (besides, as usual, you did not address the verses I gave as evidence of the truth of my statement. (Aside: just like you haven't given scripture saying men can be saved without Christ by have a clear conscience ... though I admit, you think you have)
 
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