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rogerg

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You really need to show us this with scripture as this is only what you have been indoctrinated with that comes against scripture.
I have been providing that all along, but for some reason, though you read, you seem not to grasp. Here is a partial off-the-top list, I know there are many others.
Please, no disrespect intended, but read and reread them multiple times as sometimes it is needed to actually hear what the verse is saying. If you do, things will start to jump out at you (figuratively speaking) from the verse that were not previously noticed.

[1Pe 1:1-3 KJV] 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

[2Pe 1:3-4 KJV]
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

[2Th 2:13 KJV] 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Eph 1:1, 3-8, 17-18 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: ...
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; ...
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

[Heb 12:2 KJV]
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
 

Hopeful

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It matters not what your context was, but that I only asked you where you find that God only chooses every 200th person. If this is not found in scripture then please state it is only your opinion.
It wasn't a statement.
It was a question...to Roger, concerning "How does God pre-choose those who will be saved".
 

rogerg

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And just how do they become heirs if they have not called upon God
Before I start, let me apologize for the beginning of my prior post to you about you not being able to grasp what I've posted - I don't know if you did or not but, in any event, it was not for me to say that - you might very well understand it better than I do - it was incorrect and inappropriate of me to say that, so I apologize. If you would, please ignore it.

You have asked how they become "heirs" if they don't call upon God. Even with a human will, the heir(s) alone, are its beneficiaries. This is true with God also - He had written a will into which contains the names of those He had elected to salvation. Again, just like a human will, no one except the testator can place names into the will. And just like a human will heirs are designated for any reason that pleases its testator, and not because of anything they might try to do to get their names in it. So, the answer is that God chooses the heirs, nothing, including "calling upon God", can make that happen. The next question is who will call upon God and why?

[Heb 9:15-17 KJV]
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
 

for_his_glory

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I think one has to have been made an heir by God to become born again.
You have it backwards. One must be born again in order to become an heir and enter the kingdom of God, but your teachings go against this as you teach a Christless salvation.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Once again there are five requirements to salvation, but yet you reject them in your Christless doctrine.

1. Confession - Acts 2:21; Romans 10:9, 10


2. Repentance - Mark 1:14, 15


3. Faith - John 3:14-18


4. Regeneration - John 3:3-8


5. Holy Scripture - 2 Timothy 3:15


There is no other way to salvation, but through Christ only.
 

rogerg

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You have it backwards. One must be born again in order to become an heir and enter the kingdom of God, but your teachings go against this as you teach a Christless salvation.
Christless? How did you come to that? I'm always referencing Christ as central to salvation. Please explain why you think that

But, since you're looking at being an heir that way, consider this: since Christ (the testator) died some time ago, whoever was an heir must have already been written into the will before that happened, as once the testator dies, there cannot be any changes to the will. So, according to the way you see it, no one can be saved after Christ's offering (to include His death) had completed, right? Which would then mean that salvation has ended - which negates the basic doctrine you and others base salvation upon - that it is up to the individual to become saved by believing.
 

JLB

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I think one has to have been made an heir by God to become born again.


First you must become a son, then you are an heir.


For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:26


And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?



How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:14-17



So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


No one s born again apart from hearing and believing the Gospel.






JLB
 

rogerg

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To be able to "believe from the heart", one must have been born again

2. Repentance - Mark 1:14, 15
Same as the above

Same as the above

4. Regeneration - John 3:3-8
Don't understand. Yes, we must first be born again to understand the things of the Spirit and of salvation

5. Holy Scripture - 2 Timothy 3:15
Don't understand your point. I definitely agree with that verse

There is no other way to salvation, but through Christ only.
Wait - didn't you say previously that people are saved by believing?
If you meant what you say above, then in effect, it would be that believing will not bring salvation - it would only be by Christ. Which is it? Can't be both?
 

for_his_glory

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I have been providing that all along, but for some reason, though you read, you seem not to grasp. Here is a partial off-the-top list, I know there are many others.
Please, no disrespect intended, but read and reread them multiple times as sometimes it is needed to actually hear what the verse is saying. If you do, things will start to jump out at you (figuratively speaking) from the verse that were not previously noticed.

[1Pe 1:1-3 KJV] 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

[2Pe 1:3-4 KJV]
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

[2Th 2:13 KJV] 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Eph 1:1, 3-8, 17-18 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: ...
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; ...
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

[Heb 12:2 KJV]
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
In all those scriptures you provide here you have to understand what Peter meant by the elected as they had foreknowledge of God before Peter came to them. That is why Peter called them the elect of those who had no foreknowledge as they had already come to God's salvation through Christ Jesus.

God chose us because of our confession of faith in Christ Jesus as He set us apart for special use or His purpose for those who have come to Him. Sanctification means to be set apart as in the process of being made holy as a vessel full of the Holy Spirit of God.

Read Galatians 2:16 again as we are justified by faith in Christ when we first believed in Him, John 3:16. It is not a Christless salvation.

God has chosen everyone before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before Him as that was His purpose in creating us, but yet you see that none of us when we were born remained holy and blameless, thus God's plan of salvation through Christ Jesus who laid down His own life and God raised Him from the dead that now those who believe will have life eternal with Him as He is our life.

Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith when we first believed in Him for our salvation as He is our free gift of God's grace

There is no such teaching in scripture about a Christless salvation.
 

rogerg

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First you must become a son, then you are an heir.
When Christ died no further heirs could be added to God's will, so as I said
to FHG, what you are saying means that after His death, no one not already in the will could be saved because no one's name could be added to it - it was closed. So, for the last 2k years or so no has one become saved. Is that what you're saying?

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans

Well, okay, but it is not our faith that saves us, it is Christ's faith alone that brought salvation. It is because of His faith that we believe - so, for us to believe means that we first had to be saved.

[Heb 9:17 KJV] 17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
 

for_his_glory

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It wasn't a statement.
It was a question...to Roger, concerning "How does God pre-choose those who will be saved".
Never mind as I will not ask you again to answer my question that you keep skirting around.
 

rogerg

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God chose us because of our confession of faith in Christ Jesus as He set us apart for special use or His purpose for those who have come to Him. Sanctification means to be set apart as in the process of being made holy as a vessel full of the Holy Spirit of God.
Was Saul (Paul) chosen before or after his confession? Did you read the part of my prior post where I explain about the effect of the closing of God's will? After Christ died, no one could be added to the will or become saved based upon your doctrine
 

for_his_glory

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When Christ died no further heirs could be added to God's will, so as I said
to FHG, what you are saying means that after His death, no one not already in the will could be saved because no one's name could be added to it - it was closed. So, for the last 2k years or so no has one become saved.
Well then by what you say here none of us are saved including you and all destined to the lake of fire. WOW!!!
 

rogerg

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Well then by what you say here none of us are saved including you and all destined to the lake of fire. WOW!!!

Yikes, no, that NOT what I'm saying, that would be the result of your doctrine were it correct, which it is not - that was my whole point! Please, read my reply more closely
 

rogerg

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You stated:
When Christ died no further heirs could be added to God's will, so as I said
to FHG, what you are saying means that after His death, no one not already in the will could be saved because no one's name could be added to it - it was closed. So, for the last 2k years or so no has one become saved.
No, I'm not saying that. I used that to illustrate the flaw in your doctrine that salvation is dependent upon someone believing. I was saying that according to your belief that to become saved someone must first believe even after Christ died. My belief is that God chose before the foundation of the world only (and all) those who would be saved and placed those names into His will. That means everyone who will be saved was already in the will at time of the death of Christ. You however, believe salvation it is still possible for those NOT in the will through their belief. Were that true, (which it isn't), per your logic (not mine), no one after Christ's death could be saved because the will was closed at His death and new names could not be added to it. Understand?
 
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for_his_glory

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Christless? How did you come to that? I'm always referencing Christ as central to salvation. Please explain why you think that

But, since you're looking at being an heir that way, consider this: since Christ (the testator) died some time ago, whoever was an heir must have already been written into the will before that happened, as once the testator dies, there cannot be any changes to the will. So, according to the way you see it, no one can be saved after Christ's offering (to include His death) had completed, right? Which would then mean that salvation has ended - which negates the basic doctrine you and others base salvation upon - that it is up to the individual to become saved by believing.
It is you that says " since Christ (the testator) died some time ago, whoever was an heir must have already been written into the will before that happened, as once the testator dies, there cannot be any changes to the will" Sorry, but I do not believe this as below is what has already been written.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

God's salvation through Christ did not happen until the day of Pentecost when Christ ascended up to the Father and the Holy Spirit sent down to indwell all who are Spiritually born again in order to see the kingdom of God. We can only become joint heirs with Christ through the Spiritual rebirth Jesus was teaching Nicodemus in John 3:5-7.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
 

brightfame52

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And just how do they become heirs if they have not called upon God for their very salvation that only comes by faith as they hear the word of God. One has to be Spiritually born again from above in order to become heirs to the kingdom of God.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
How did Isaac become an heir ?
 

rogerg

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It is you that says " since Christ (the testator) died some time ago, whoever was an heir must have already been written into the will before that happened, as once the testator dies, there cannot be any changes to the will" Sorry, but I do not believe this as below is what has already been written.
[Heb 7:22 KJV] 22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament

[Heb 9:15-17 KJV]
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Paul is speaking in Romans to those already saved. They were joint heirs with Christ because their names were already in God's will. That their names were in the will was why they had become saved.

[Rom 1:7-8 KJV]
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.


God's salvation through Christ did not happen until the day of Pentecost when Christ ascended up to the Father and the Holy Spirit sent down to indwell all who are Spiritually born again in order to see the kingdom of God. We can only become joint heirs with Christ through the Spiritual rebirth Jesus was teaching Nicodemus in John 3:5-7.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
I don't find anything about becoming an heir in the above verses. In John 14:6, Jesus Himself says that no man can come to the Father except through Him. Not through anything they may do, but only through Him alone.
 

for_his_glory

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No, I'm not saying that. I used that to illustrate the flaw in your doctrine that salvation is dependent upon someone believing. I was saying that according to your belief that to become saved someone must first believe even after Christ died. My belief is that God chose before the foundation of the world only (and all) those who would be saved and placed those names into His will. That means everyone who will be saved was already in the will at time of the death of Christ. You however, believe salvation it is still possible for those NOT in the will through their belief. Were that true, (which it isn't), per your logic (not mine), no one after Christ's death could be saved because the will was closed at His death and new names could not be added to it. Understand?
Sorry, but our salvation is very dependent on us first believing in Christ Jesus according to these scriptures below as I could give you more, but this should be enough. Calvin taught against this but, does not changed what Jesus has already said about believing first then you will be saved and have eternal life as our life is in a risen Christ.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

How can you refute what Jesus has already said.
 
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