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The Book Among Feminists Groups Being Debated

Feminism is rebellion not much different than a man wanting to grow long hair..:readbible


"You can name anything you want to name, but I am opposed to anything in the world that de-emphasizes the line of difference between the sexes. I believe that ladies ought to be feminine and sweet and lovely and charming. I believe men ought to be strong and masculine and decisive. I’m opposed to anything that makes a man and a woman act alike, look alike, dress alike, or talk alike."

Pastor Jack Hyles

tob

Jack Hyles is of course entitled to his opinion. But really that's what it is: his opinion.
While I do look and dress feminine I do love some things that most would consider masculine. For example I love martial arts. And I love chopping wood. Is chopping wood making me unfeminine? Next time my boss asks me to chop some firewood should I refuse because that would be unfeminine and thus against God's will for women? Taking a break from work instead and resting my fragile soft feminine nature in the heated room petting the cats would probably a more female thing to do. I'm sure my boss would understand. :biggrin2

As for the long haired men, there are several of that kind in my church, I'm gonna ask them if they see themselves in conflict with the Bible and why not.
 
Ask them to read this.. :)

I Corinthians 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

tob
 
Ask them to read this.. :)

I Corinthians 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

tob

Pretty sure that they read it before.

Anyway, if I were too take Paul's question as a real question and answer it honestly I would say that, no, nature itself does not teach that long hair is a shame for him. Hair grows long naturally, so why would nature teach it to be a shame?
 
As a feminist I am really sad you have such a negative view on us.
Maybe I can point you to the fact that I am not American, and it seems to me christendom is generally more liberal and progressive in my country, so my behaviour, although still clearly feminist, is in no way radical or extreme compared to the people, christian or other, I meet around me on a day by day basis. So it often surprises me that I leave such a dark impression on Americans when stating things that are absolutely acceptable for christians in my culture.
It's neither your, nor my fault, it's just an unresolvable cultural difference that we can only accept.

In what way have we, or have the generations of women before my time, destroyed feminity? Because I would think that in empowering women feminity is actually strengthened.
What exactly is "feminity"? Is there a universal "feminine nature" (other than the biological facts like that we can have the babies)? One purpose of feminism is to leave it to the individual to explore what exactly their feminity means. We hope that we do not only improve the situation for women (especially for those in countries where women face sexual violence, blatant discrimination and reduced access to education and healthcare), but also for men who will have stronger and more self confident girlfriends and wifes who can be true partners and companions for them. Self confidence in this case means a healthy relationship with oneself, which is a neccessary condition for altruistic behaviour and humility.
And from what I am hearing for a number of men, that is the kind of woman many guys seem to wish for and feel attracted to.

I believe the "seperate roles" in life do not really exist. We are very different on an individual level, and many of us do not have the talents that are traditionally asigned to a stereotypical person of their sex. If I'd take a photo of my appartment as it is right now and post it here you would see that I am a terribly untalented housekeeper. >_< Many of us have skills and interests that would traditionally be something ascribed to the opposite sex. I know that this is not exactly what most christians' idea about biblical gender roles is about; but it is an example to show that gender is often a poor predictor for what a person is good at and what talents they have. So it just wouldn't make any sense to see any God given different roles for ALL women and ALL men. Those two categories are just too unspecific.
The Bible doesn't even comment on gender roles much. Some Bible passages describe how things were or were expected to be in those days, but there is no comment on whether those things are good, bad or irrelevant. As far as I can tell it's mostly Proverbs 31 and a few lines Paul wrote.
And like I told you earlier I know that mutual submission is necessary for a healthy marriage.

So I am wondering, in what way have I disobeyed God in this context? Believe me, I haven't done anything illegal or violent. My feminist activism is limited to debating with people, signing online petitions, sharing stuff on facebook and wearing shirts with feminist messages, so I haven't done anything illegal or indecent in regards to that. I have no husband that I could be disobeying or so, and the last boyfriend I had (before becoming christian) was also were much in favour of equality. So what exactly is my sin? I never felt that fighting for women's rights was seperating me from God in any way.
Okay I judged a book without having read it. I'm not 69 yet, so I'm excused for being youthfully unwise. ;-) Seriously though I'm having a hard time ot judging that book, but I will try not to judge the author, but instead see her as a sister in the Lord who may have a different world view in some things.
Let's understand some things of one another. You had already revealed the fact that you were a member of the greater than God, World League of Feminists by presenting your views, here, on the forum.

I am of German, Irish, English and Apache heritage. My Grandfather, on my mom's side arrived in Galveston, Texas, just after the effects of losing WW I began to set in on the Father Land.

I, fifty years later, still carry a scar, just above my left eye for being a crass young fool in front of a middle aged Comrade's misses. The, not much later, German friend that taught me manors, nearly popped my eye out of it's socket in one of the nicer Stubes in Hanau, he hit me so hard.

The relatives and other natives, save the Nazis remaining there in the sixties, were sweet people and the ladies were just that, ladies. Feminism was already breaking out in Europe then but they were not considered lady like, woman, yeah, but never, ever, feminine.

My Irish/English Grandmother arrived here, pre 1915, as Bond Servants... Slaves! Those two ladies were the sweetest, most lady like creatures I have ever known, they both thought the sun rose and shone, just, in me and I loved them enough to have died for them.

When I was in Vietnam, trying to maintain the freedom of the Little People, women, not ladies, was already being discussed because of the man like feminists and my reply, at the bar or in a Non-Com and Officer meeting was that she would be the first to die in my fox hole.

I admit, I love ladies, I cannot ever trust a woman that wants to trash her God Ordained protection.

You say, correctly that Christianity in
Europe is more liberal than in the U.S. and to that I say, "You're right!" Had you read my post carefully and thoughtfully, I suspect you would not have hit me with that comment.

You see, as I have said hundreds of times, the term Liberal Christian is an oxymoron, there is no such thing. Jesus said, "If you love me, you'll obey my commands." That leaves, absolutely, no room to be liberal. And if we read John 1:1-5, it is very clear that Jesus is , the author of all the Bible, meaning that all the commands found in both the New and the Old Testaments are His.

Reread your comment, please! Do you see how you spelled Christendom? I know, the times and the customs are changed. Therein is the root of the issue! Mal. 3:6a God never changes. This is a truth that is unavoidable. If we had no capital letters, the omission would not exist but we do. It has always been a sign and a form of respect to capitalize the first letter of names and in this case, the title or the word is derived from one of the names of God, Christ, a.k.a. Saviour. All of us, every man and yes, every woman will and should now bow at the feet of Jesus with me. He deserves that. I'll let you spelling of Christian be, enough on that.

But the content does need reckoning. You want to be a Heaven dwelling Christian? You will not rationalize your way in there. Your relative position to any other person, anywhere, does not matter.

I am fully aware that God does not use a Christian Person Cutter, like a cookie cutter, meaning that all of us are different but, our standard is the Bible, not the mandate of the Feminist Movement.

Then there is your mention of culture, it is of no import at all. There is a Church Family in Nigeria that prayed, the entire assembly, for my ministry for several years before we lost contact. Nigerians are very dark black people and they neither live nor worship like I do and yet we live by the same standard, the Bible, the holy Word of God.

I'm going to drop this now because we are terribly off subject.
 
i look at it this way..that's Gods word not just some idea Paul cooked up..

Paul admitted to saying his own opinion rather than God's word in the very same letter on a different topic.
Methinks he was speaking of his personal sense of normality and decency here. Nature (or God) made hair to grow long. So why would "nature" teach it's shamefull? It really makes no sense. Why would God care about hair length anyway....

I'd understand those two verses that men and women should stick to the customs of their culture of what is decent and acceptable for each gender and to groom oneself properly. Nowadays it's absolutely acceptable for a man to have long hair and for a woman to have short hair. In almost all cases you can still tell whether they are men or women, and grooming long hair is no problem in the world we live in.

I think long hair can look very masculine
love.gif
thus I have to defend that. ;-)
 
This is how men's hair looked in them days..

julius_caesar2.jpg

Is that Cesar? From the jewsih point of view, wasn't he, like, the villain? :lol Not a good role model for jewish hairstyling.

Jesus didn't have long hair either..:yes
Yeah I heard so, too. But how comes they started portraying him with long hair some time in the middle ages? Maybe because men in the middle ages often had long hair and it was considered normal and a sign of noble birth? Many paintings of contemporary medieval or renaissance people show that men had long hair during that time.
 
I'm going to drop this now because we are terribly off subject.

I'm sad that you want to leave the debate at this point, because I feel like we are completely misunderstanding each other. I didn't mean to "hit" you with anything in my comment, the reference to christianity being more liberal in Europe was merely a hint that we must be carefull not to stumble over those things because they cannot be resolved in a discussion. It's very unfortunate that I achieved the exact opposite of what I wanted to say.

I'm sorry if my not capitalising Christendom made you feel like I disrespect our Lord. I honestly wasn't aware that some people capitalise Christian or words related to that. I admit I don't know all English grammar rules, most of my English nowadays is stuff I picked up on the internet.
Thinking about it, I would of course always capitalise all words that directly adress God or Jesus. But christians or christendom are words for flawed people and I don't want to worship people, I want to worship God and distinguish God and Christ from the people that follow Him. So I will keep the minor case c in christian or christendom.

Anyway, I feel like you have been hurt by something that feminism did or that you perceive feminism did. I myself didn't mean to hurt you and I honestly don't remember any aggressive feelings in my posts I wrote to you. So I assume that maybe I am wrong sensing anger in your words, or your anger is a response to something someone else did.
For whatever negative feelings my words caused you I ask you for forgiveness.
 
i remember in the early 70's people used the excuse "well Jesus had long hair" we thought the bible backed us up but in reality that idea came from scripture that a Nazarene wasn't to shave his head.. shaving your head and getting your haircut are two different things. The Chaldean priests had a custom to shave a circular spot on their heads as part of sun god worship that spot was called a Tonsure today's priest practice the same ritual i believe Monks still use them.. in a nutshell its from the religion of Babylon.. We hippies had every excuse to justify our positions.. :wave

tob
 
i remember in the early 70's people used the excuse "well Jesus had long hair" we thought the bible backed us up but in reality that idea came from scripture that a Nazarene wasn't to shave his head.. shaving your head and getting your haircut are two different things. The Chaldean priests had a custom to shave a circular spot on their heads as part of sun god worship that spot was called a Tonsure today's priest practice the same ritual i believe Monks still use them.. in a nutshell its from the religion of Babylon.. We hippies had every excuse to justify our positions.. :wave

tob
remember that what is feminine in culture isn't in another. in America it would be feminine if men planned for their weddings. and yet in the arab culture its men that plan weddings. women in the past sew in America and yet in arab cultures that's a man jobs
 
remember that what is feminine in culture isn't in another. in America it would be feminine if men planned for their weddings. and yet in the arab culture its men that plan weddings. women in the past sew in America and yet in arab cultures that's a man jobs

Wow I didn't know that.
It's both's job here. Unless they chose to engage a wedding planner (some friend or relative, or a professional planner). But most couples plan their weddings together. In general a man leaving it all to his wife-to-be would probably considered lazy or indifferent and uncaring (same for a woman leaving it all to the husband-to-be).
 
Wow I didn't know that.
It's both's job here. Unless they chose to engage a wedding planner (some friend or relative, or a professional planner). But most couples plan their weddings together. In general a man leaving it all to his wife-to-be would probably considered lazy or indifferent and uncaring (same for a woman leaving it all to the husband-to-be).
I do think that a man should be able to repair clothing.
 
Hi Claudya. I would like to join this conversation hoping to show more aspect on the topic. The story which I had found online. Now before I go to deep into the issues I would like to ask some questions to Claudya.

First I would like to ask what country do you reside in? Can you tell us members about your modern day culture of living both men and women in society who interact? Also how do you feel men and women roles work within a marriage in your country? The more you can elaborate the more we can understand what you have been enduring and why you stand for the feminist movement. Because perhaps at some point we do have a cultural or political misunderstanding what kind of feminism we are debating.

I’m going to say the word feminism in much of Christian establishments here in America is a bad word. A word that tries to replace the Church Doctrine, Biblical teachings, the roles of men and women in our society.

As you can guess I live in America. Ok people don’t keep booing at me.:lol. Our society is quite dangerous and rude at that. I have some English British influence from our good friend Eddy and his wife Allison. I ask him about pounds (money) and other stuff. . America especially born again Christians detest Feminist movements and its effect on modern day society and institution of marriages.

Feminists in America are liberal backed up by Political agenda secularist movements gaining more ground against Christian establishments. Once upon a time there was a generation we knew.

This is a listing of recent generations for individuals born in the United States. Dates are approximate, as recognized by demographers.

2000/2001-Present - New Silent Generation or Generation Z
1980-2000 - Millennials or Generation Y
1965-1979 - Generation X
1946-1964 - Baby Boom
1925-1945 - Silent Generation
1900-1924 - G.I. Generation

http://geography.about.com/od/populationgeography/qt/generations.htm


It was called the silent age of our grandparents. At least at my age it was my grandfathers day. . In these days men were men and women were women. Men did more gentle chivalry for his wife. The wife was more submissive helping and caring for the family needs. She was both a respected wife and mother. Some of these most kind women were also volunteers at the local church citizen locations. A woman was a role model to young girls who wanted to grow up to be like her mother.

But Baby boomers came along in 1946. A generation who began a great rebellion against their Parents way of thinking. They did not want to be like their parents so much. Although still back then many women still looked up to their mothers. Once Generation X my Generation that began one year later after the Beatles played in America was even more lost than baby boomers. Then Generation Y and now Generation Z. Generation Z many do not even know who the Beatles are. They don’t know the silent age. They don't know what chivalry means.

These things have all been lost in the sand somewhere buried ages ago. Christians desire to bring back the chivalry in marriage and feminists hate silent age thinking. They want women to be a dominant superior leader like as any man in any role in society and in marriage. End result? Divorce certificates left and right.

Last I checked we are at a fifty percent rate both Christian and non Christian families. Why are not Christian marriages working? Feminist movements argue against Gods’ principles about a woman and her role in the family. God is trying to help the women have more humbleness. But she clenches her fist, blinks her eyes, stomps her foot, and feeling pride saying :rollingpin no I’m not going to endure some man leading our marriage. But God says the husband is to the wife even as Christ is to the church. Christ is the head even as the husband.

Does this mean dictatorship or treating a wife like a doormat? Not at all. In fact he is to show great love toward her to help her and having much chivalry. But our feminist movements here say women should not submit at all. .. argue till your face is blue. Don’t let anyone lead you. You are independent. This is where we are at today. I don't want to make this post any longer. I will continue in the discussion. Claudya can you please try to answer the questions I asked in this first paragraph? Thanks your friend RJ
 
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The Biblical marriage follows the same pattern as employer/ employee. The husband is the owner of the house, the wife is the manager of the house. When the husband and wife stay in the boundaries of those roles it works great. They both exercise the authority they have within those roles.

So following in that analogy, it doesn't make sense for an employee to have the same authority and power as the owner of the business. It doesn't work. Nor does it make sense for the owner to be a power hungry, micro-managing, dictator. That doesn't work either.
 
30 years ago every military recruit had to purchase a needle and thread from the BX. And it wasn't so he could send it home to mama.
that was the case when I entered service. however, I believe that calven klein, levy jeans were all started by men and it is ironic they design women made them. in Abrahams day the woman cooked , cleaned and took care of the livestock.in 1800's was family event. that isn't to say the the men didn't know about livestock nor did it but they when they married the wives took it over.
 
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