The Book of Revelation

[Darrell dunn]

First !:3 The word Blessed: Greek 3107 means supremely blest!

Supremely blest is he that readeth,and they that hear:Greek 191 understand the words of this prophecy.

Second 1:20 seven stars are the seven angels of the churches,
rule of first usage, Means from this point on the word star = angelic being.

In all seven letters the overcomers are called HE male gender, the church has always been in the female gender, so this is something new.

Now look at Ch 12 a woman (The church) clothed in the sun (Glory of the Father) standing on the moon our mother(Hebrew nation, and prophets)

Gives birth to a man child, OR HE that will rule with a rod of iron. (THE RAPTURE)
Read Rev.2: 26&27 and he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, UNTO HIM WILL I GIVE POWER OVER THE NATIONS: AND HE SHALL RULE WITH A ROD OF IRON.
1John3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not appear what we shall be: but we know that, that when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Look at the description of the angels Rev.10:1clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun.
Rev,14:14 I looked , and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown,
rev. 15:6 and the seven angels come out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

Rev.19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him \. and he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God.

Dan.7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, AND JUDGMENT WAS GIVEN TO THE SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH;

The 10,000x10,000 that stood before the throne Rev,5:11 are the raptured saints. The angels blowing the trumpets are the saints.
Dan 7: 10 10,000x10,000 are these saints.
Jude14 Behold the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, are these saints.

The rapture is Rev. 4:1.

Rev.6:13 satan and his angels falling to earth

 

[PHIL121]

Your point being??

 

[Vic C.]

Your point being??

I don't know... maybe it's Darrell's overview of how he understands Revelation. We see it differently on a few points.

Now look at Ch 12 a woman (The church) clothed in the sun (Glory of the Father) standing on the moon our mother(Hebrew nation, and prophets)

I see the woman as being Israel and the child, Jesus, through Israel's bloodline (lineage). Most of Ch. 12 seemd to refer more to Israel than the church.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Israel brought forth Jesus through that bloodline and her prophets. The Church couldn't have, since Jesus preceded the church. Remember, He established it.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The church doesn't flee into the wilderness, but "Israel" does in the End Times.

The 10,000x10,000 that stood before the throne Rev,5:11 are the raptured saints. The angels blowing the trumpets are the saints.
Dan 7: 10 10,000x10,000 are these saints.
Jude14 Behold the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, are these saints.

The ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands are the number of angels. The verse tells us so:

Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

It isn't the number of beasts, we see their number in Revelation 4:6. It isn't the elders either; we see them in Revelation 4:4. All that's left in the verse are angels.

The rapture is Rev. 4:1

I believe this is just John being called up to Heaven.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.

 

[MrVersatile48]

See related thread..

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=18527

My post there - @ 5th down - may help some here

God bless!

Ian

 

[Darrell dunn]

Lets use Joseph's dream to interpert the woman, The sun is the father, and Israel is not clothed in His glory We the church are.

The moon is the mother, Israel and the prophets gave birth to the church.

The man child was caught up at birth, not at 33 yrs old.

The church or foolish virgins will flee the AC, after the rapture.

1 Thess. 5:3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them as travail upon a woman with child,

it is the church that is saying peace and safety, not the world. And the foolish will be left.

And John had a new group of people to talk about after the rapture, the glorified saints. So therefore the angelic beings are now called stars Rev.1;20, And the glorified saints are called angels.

Rev.19;10 & 22;8-9 The angels identify themselves as fellow servants and brethren.

This is the way God taught me the scriptures not someone else.

 

[PHIL121]

Lets use Joseph's dream to interpert the woman, The sun is the father, and Israel is not clothed in His glory We the church are.

The moon is the mother, Israel and the prophets gave birth to the church.

The man child was caught up at birth, not at 33 yrs old.

The church or foolish virgins will flee the AC, after the rapture.

1 Thess. 5:3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them as travail upon a woman with child,

it is the church that is saying peace and safety, not the world. And the foolish will be left.

And John had a new group of people to talk about after the rapture, the glorified saints. So therefore the angelic beings are now called stars Rev.1;20, And the glorified saints are called angels.

Rev.19;10 & 22;8-9 The angels identify themselves as fellow servants and brethren.

This is the way God taught me the scriptures not someone else.

This post makes absolutely no sense

 

[Vic C.]

Lets use Joseph's dream to interpert the woman, The sun is the father, and Israel is not clothed in His glory We the church are.

The moon is the mother, Israel and the prophets gave birth to the church.

The man child was caught up at birth, not at 33 yrs old.

Hey Darrell, I'm not seeing any of this in Joseph's dream.

Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Could you explain to use how you come to this conclusion?

The church or foolish virgins will flee the AC, after the rapture.

I don't see this having to do with the catching up of the NT saints. What I do see here is Jesus talking to and about Jews. Are you aware of Jewish customs concerning a Jewish wedding? Let me show you a few things I have learned about their customs.

A Jewish marriage was made up of three stages, usually over a period of time. First there was the pre-arranged engagement. (sort of like the "pre-arranged" covenent between God and Israel)

Then there is a formalizing of the engagement, called a Betrothal. It is a ceremony where vows are exchanged. After this was a period of a year or two where the couple would still live apart, with the "bride" still living with her parents. (consider Israel as still "seperated" from her bridegroom or "messiah". yes, I said her. throughout the Bible, Israel is referred to as she, her, woman, harlot, etc.)

Finally there the marriage supper. This supper was usually held at night. The groom and His friends would go to the home of the bride and escort her to his father's house, where there was a group waiting for the festivities. This is when the actual wedding contract would be signed. There is another part to all this...

After all this, the bride would remain alone for seven days. She would then return to the group and her veil is removed, finally revealing her to everyone. (note seven days=one week=seven years in prophetic terms. It isn't until after Daniel's 70th. week that the remnant of Israel is saved)

1 Thess. 5:3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them as travail upon a woman with child,

it is the church that is saying peace and safety, not the world. And the foolish will be left.

I belive this particular verse is talking about the Jews, not the ekklesia. Lets look at the verse closely...

"For when they shall say..." Who is "they"? In 1 Thess 5:2 the "church" is referred to as "yourselves"

"then sudden destruction cometh upon them," "and they shall not escape." Who is them and they? Again, in 1 Thess 5:4, the "church" is referred to as "ye, brethren,".

Lets remember that the Jews in the End Times will be lulled into a false sense of security.

Another thing is, the verse states there wil be "sudden destruction cometh upon them,". This sudden destruction is God's Wrath, the Day of the Lord. Why would we be saying "Peace and safety", when we know full well what this wrath is and who it will be upon?

And John had a new group of people to talk about after the rapture, the glorified saints. So therefore the angelic beings are now called stars Rev.1;20,

Angelic beings were referred to as stars all throughout Scripture. All I read here is that the seven stars represent the messengers of the seven churches. I'm not understanding your point here. Sorry.

And the glorified saints are called angels.

Rev.19;10 & 22;8-9 The angels identify themselves as fellow servants and brethren.

This is the way God taught me the scriptures not someone else.

This is new to me Darrell. Can you show us where specifically the name "saints" was changed to "angels"? Thanks.

Peace,
Vic

 

[Darrell dunn]

I see you don't know anthing about the old testament.
Joseph's dream is in Genesis 37:9-10

And the Jews that Jesus was talking with are the Fathers of the church.

And paul didn't Know what he was talking about when he said all scripture
is given by inspiration of God.

And what scripture did Jesus read from, And what scripture did Paul and Peter read?

I gave scriptures for everything I said.

 

[Vic C.]

I see you don't know anthing about the old testament.
Joseph's dream is in Genesis 37:9-10

I wouldn't go as far as saying I know nothing about the OT. That is an assumption on your part. So I didn't make the connection between what you said and Joseph of the OT.

How many brothers did Joseph have? 11, plus Joseph makes 12. Who was Joseph's father? Jacob, who was named Israel by God. Who did these 12 brothers become? They became the 12 tribes of Israel. If we read Gen. 37:10, we see Joseph was dreaming about his brothers.

Gen 37:10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

If we jump down to Gen. 42:6, we see Joseph's dream fulfilled...

Gen 42:6 And Joseph was the governor over the land, and he it was that sold to all the people of the land: and Joseph's brethren came, and bowed down themselves before him with their faces to the earth.

This is Joseph's dream interpreted. Looking at it this way, I can only conclude the 12 stars in Rev. 12:1 are the nation (or remnant) of Israel.

You want to believe the church is the woman, that's fine; but to do so, you ignore Rev 12:5. The Church did not give birth to Jesus. If anything, it's the other way around.

And the Jews that Jesus was talking with are the Fathers of the church.

Never said they weren't.

And paul didn't Know what he was talking about when he said all scripture is given by inspiration of God.

I never said he didn't.

And what scripture did Jesus read from, And what scripture did Paul and Peter read?

The Scripture they had is what we call the OT. Was this a sincere question or a test?

 

[Darrell dunn]

This is Joseph's dream interpreted. Looking at it this way, I can only conclude the 12 stars in Rev. 12:1 are the nation (or remnant) of Israel.

Dealing with one point at a time.
In this case the twelve stars represent the twelve apostles, they are the crown of the church.

As for the man child, Jesus was not caught up at birth, and the Jews did not flee right after the birth.

 

[Vic C.]

Dealing with one point at a time.
In this case the twelve stars represent the twelve apostles, they are the crown of the church.

It is evident we see this differently Darrell, so there's no sence in rehashing. We have both stated our beliefs on this and our reasons why.

As for the man child, Jesus was not caught up at birth, and the Jews did not flee right after the birth.

First off, you bring up a valid point in the second part of your statement. I'll get to that in a moment.

You said, "As for the man child, Jesus was not caught up at birth", but in a post above, you say, "The man child was caught up at birth, not at 33 yrs old." Could you explain this apparent contradiction to me? Thanks.

I would like to point out that Revelation 12:5 doesn't actually suggest he was caught up at birth. Let's remember that regardless of his age when he was caught up, he is still "her child". We are always our mother's child. Just ask my mom. :

You said, "and the Jews did not flee right after the birth". Good point. I can't argue with you on that, though the verse doesn't suggest it occurred right after his birth... or death... or ascension. :wink: Has it ever occurred to you that there is a period of time between the two events; his catching up and the fleeing into the wilderness? Remember, there is a gap between Daniel's 69th. and 70th. week.

Just so you know Darrell, I am not debating with you for the sake of argument. Actually, you have helped me fill in some gaps in my understanding of the Revelation 12:1-6 passage.

Peace and God bless,
Vic

 

[Darrell dunn]

I need to know which part of the bible is talking to the church and which part is talking to the jews? and how do tell?

The only book I use to interpret the bible is the bible.

what book do you use?

 

[Vic C.]

I need to know which part of the bible is talking to the church and which part is talking to the jews? and how do tell?

The only book I use to interpret the bible is the bible.

what book do you use?

First off, I will say I am no expert whatsoever at this. I am just another Bible student seeking God's Truth in His word.

As I had stated above, it didn't occur to me to use Joseph's dream in interpreting Rev. 12:1-6. Actually, I never went any further than that passage to determine who the woman is.

As you have heard many times I'm sure, all of the Bible is for us, but not all of it is to us or about us. I try and read things and look at the context and culture in which it was written. I see to many people reading the Bible and trying to fit it into today's culture and language, which in my opinion, is wrong. There is so much that has been lost between our current language and the original languages, it's no wonder there are so many interpretations. How many Bible students even know what Biblical hermeneutics are?

Darrell, I use the Bible too. I will not go as far as saying I only use the Bible and I seriously doubt you or anyone else here can honestly lay claim to that. Just about everyone here has used a Hebrew or Greek Lexicon, a dictionary or a website or commentary. I have even seen you post references to Greek words and meanings and once, you even referenced us tp some article on TribForces site.

We are all influenced by what we read and hear from other sources. Now can we all honestly say we can harmonize all of what we read with Scripture? Darrell, I was once a a believer in PreTribulation. As I got more serious in my studies, I ran into too much that required speculation and conjecture on my part. I was not willing to do that in light of allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture, so I just let it go, which I am about to do with this thread.

Peace,
Vic

 

[Darrell dunn]

1 Thess. 5:3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them as travail upon a woman with child,

it is the church that is saying peace and safety, not the world. And the foolish will be left.

I belive this particular verse is talking about the Jews, not the ekklesia. Lets look at the verse closely...

"For when they shall say..." Who is "they"? In 1 Thess 5:2 the "church" is referred to as "yourselves"

"then sudden destruction cometh upon them," "and they shall not escape." Who is them and they? Again, in 1 Thess 5:4, the "church" is referred to as "ye, brethren,".

Lets remember that the Jews in the End Times will be lulled into a false sense of security.

Another thing is, the verse states there wil be "sudden destruction cometh upon them,". This sudden destruction is God's Wrath, the Day of the Lord. Why would we be saying "Peace and safety", when we know full well what this wrath is and who it will be upon?

The peace and safety message is, All is well, All is well, everyone that has asked Jesus into their life will be raptured, regardless of how entangled you are with the world. Jesus took care of everything at the cross.

This is the Church of Laodicea that is neither hot nor cold.

1Thess.5 Shows the division between the wise and the foolish virgins.

V6 let us not sleep, as do others.

 

[PHIL121]

Since 1 Thessalonians is addressed to the CHRISTIAN church in (guess where?) Thessalonia, I fail to see how the indefinite pronoun "you" could refer to the Jews.

 

[Vic C.]

Ezek 13:16 To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD.

1 Thess. 5:3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them as travail upon a woman with child,

I believe this particular verse is talking about the Jews, not the ekklesia....

When I said this, I was referring to the unbelieving Jews... and also those who fit into this category;

2 Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2 Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


I ran across this while reading through some of John McArthur's sermons...

Unbelievably, absolutely incomprehensibly the people in the world at that time are going to have an inexplicable response on the surface. Look at verse 3, an inexplicable response, verse 3, "While they are saying, `Peace and safety,' then destruction will come." Stop at that point. You say, "What? They're saying what?" They're saying "Peace and safety." You say, "Now wait a minute. The Bible says you can't know the day or the hour." That's right. "But you can know the general time frame for the day of the Lord." That's correct, not the specific day, not the hour but the general time frame...yes.

Why? Because the abomination of desolation has happened, because somebody is announcing the coming of Christ, because of a world-wide apostasy, because of the nations going into the valley of decision and certainly because everything goes black. But in spite of this, and mark this, even before the mid-point of the seven years there will be other things to indicate the end, and we'll see those next Sunday. There will be other evidences listed in the first five seals of Revelation that will show that we're moving toward the end. In spite of that, in spite of the Antichrist, in spite of all of those preliminaries, in spite of all of it the response of people is peace and safety. What does that mean? Everything will be fine. We're headed for a time of peace. We're headed for a time of safety.

You say, "That's absolutely ludicrous. That's absolutely ridiculous. Who in the world would ever come up with that kind of a response?" Pretty simple, if you think about it. They're being convinced by a special group...a special group of people are working real hard to convince them that peace and safety is coming. Take a wild guess and imagine who that group represents? It wouldn't be God, would it? It must be the enemy.

Peace and safety...peace and safety...everything is going to be fine, we're moving toward a wonderful time, all this is going to be over. This is the beginning of...I can hear it now...this is the beginning of the new age...the old one is falling apart, it's all disintegrating and all of the Christians who have been raptured were the problem, we got rid of them and the whole thing is now being reshuffled and we're going to come in to the dawning of a new age....

... Where do you think they were getting their message? From Satan himself and his demons who always do everything they can to lie and deceive the people of God. And so these false demon- inspired prophets were running around saying, "Peace, peace, we're coming to a time of peace, we're coming to a time of peace."

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/52-20.HTM

Ezek 13:16 To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD.

 

[Darrell dunn]

Vic

I am puzzled how we could not know the day if the abomination has been set up , Dan.12;11 gives us the exact number of days.

Mat. 24 says that the days will be shorten at that time, read Rev.8:12 the night is shortened by a third and the day is shortened by a third, making it now 16 hrs long not 24 hrs.

Do you think God is trying to hide this from us ?

or do think that satan is trying to muddy the water?

 

[PHIL121]

That sermon from John MacArthur describes the world as it is today.

Here is something from David Wilkerson in a similar vein...

Where will fleeing multitudes be able to find churches that
offer a place of refuge, where the Holy Spirit calms them
with truth? In such churches, no one will be gossiping or
focusing on the petty things of life. No one will be
careless about their walk with Jesus. Nobody will be talking
about church growth, or going out to movie theaters to sit
with scorners and take in filth. No, there will be but one
issue for every pastor and layperson in such churches: “Do I
have a supply of the Holy Spirit in me? Do I have his supply
to minister to others around me who are distraught with
fear?â€Â

 

[Vic C.]

Here is something from David Wilkerson in a similar vein...

Heh, I'm a bit familiar with him. Do you have a link to the excerpt you provided? I'd like to read more of it. I give him a lot of credit, starting a church in NYC's Time Square District.

Vic

I am puzzled how we could not know the day if the abomination has been set up , Dan.12;11 gives us the exact number of days.

Mat. 24 says that the days will be shorten at that time, read Rev.8:12 the night is shortened by a third and the day is shortened by a third, making it now 16 hrs long not 24 hrs.

Do you think God is trying to hide this from us ?

or do think that satan is trying to muddy the water?

No, the Lord is not trying to hide it from us. He does tells us there will be signs. Satan? LOL, he is always trying to muddy the waters. ;-)

Here's my understanding of the rest of what you posted.

Matthew 24:22 says:

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

What I get from that is the number (amount) of days in the Great Tribulation (antichrist's persecution against the saints) will be shortened, not the hours in the days. (i.e. the days themselves)

I don't see Revelation 8:12 as saying what you suggested.

Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

I believe the verse is saying a third of the sun, moon and stars will be darkened, not that the day will be shortned.

About knowing the day and hour? Jesus was surely not lying, but this doesn't suggest the aprox. timeframe cannot not be known. The fact that He does give us signs suggests to me it's possible to know the general timeframe, as McArthur pointed out. He and I, along with many others more knowledgable than I feel the same.

(from the excerpt I posted)

The Bible says you can't know the day or the hour." That's right. "But you can know the general time frame for the day of the Lord." That's correct, not the specific day, not the hour but the general time frame...yes.

I apologize if I am misunstanding you and am truely sorry if you are misunderstanding me. I know it can be tough at times to follow someone else's understanding of Scripture... especially EndTimes, wich given it's nature, is open to many interpretations. Even if we do alllow Scripture interpret Scripture. 8-)

 

[Darrell dunn]

It says that THE DAY shone not for a third part of it , And the NIGHT likewise .
Not sun and moon Shone not for third part of it. Meaning that we have gone to a 16 hr day.

And Dan. gives the number of days from the mid trib to the end.Dan.12:11
1390 days, and that would be 1/2 of 7 yrs.

But maybe God didn't know that.

The reason that there are so many interpertations is a lot of people are not being lead by the Lord.

I recomend what the old Babtist use to call praying through on your own.

I tried reading scripture on my own, but that didn't work, I didn't get anything out of it. Until I told the Lord that He would have to show me.

There is only one truth and all else is a lie, No matter how good it may sound.

In most cases if you were to add ONE word to what the bible says it then is a lie. Truth is absolute with no varance.