The Catholic Church.

[Christ_empowered]

The Catholic Church and the Pentecostals seem to be the last 2 large Christian groups I can think of who truly believe in miracles. I found myself distancing myself from the Pentecostal belief system once it dawned on me that many of them call any and every good thing a "miracle." I thought it was harmless, at first, but...

not to nit pick, but it seems to fit a worldview in which devotion and genuine spiritual development have been replaced with "feelings" and having "The Lord speak to my heart and tell me...," etc. seems too widespread for me to deal with that sort of church, honestly.

Catholics? ugh. Not to knock the RCC, but...more and more, I find it to be the most dangerous, deceptive sort of false Christianity. Their approach to miracles cautious to me, at first, then it dawned on me: God is sovereign. God performs miracles, at times. Is the RCC really so close to God that the church can properly declare what is and is not miraculous? and if so...

what's up with RCC history? antipopes, for instance. that was just weird.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Catholic Church and the Pentecostals seem to be the last 2 large Christian groups I can think of who truly believe in miracles. I found myself distancing myself from the Pentecostal belief system once it dawned on me that many of them call any and every good thing a "miracle." I thought it was harmless, at first, but...

not to nit pick, but it seems to fit a worldview in which devotion and genuine spiritual development have been replaced with "feelings" and having "The Lord speak to my heart and tell me...," etc. seems too widespread for me to deal with that sort of church, honestly.

Catholics? ugh. Not to knock the RCC, but...more and more, I find it to be the most dangerous, deceptive sort of false Christianity. Their approach to miracles cautious to me, at first, then it dawned on me: God is sovereign. God performs miracles, at times. Is the RCC really so close to God that the church can properly declare what is and is not miraculous? and if so...

what's up with RCC history? antipopes, for instance. that was just weird.

I always knew that we're not to go by our FEELINGS but by what we know to be true.
Feelings come and go....
I mean, it's wonderful when we feel the Holy Spirit close to us..but even if we don't, we know He's there.

Re the CC,,,,what happened that you came to believe it's so deceptive?

As to miracles....when I say they investigate, that's what they do.
Even some cancers can automatically go into remission on their own - so this would seem like a miracle even though it wouldn't be.
The investigations they conducted were to ascertain that the miracles were true.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I mean deceptive, because they have --so-- much material to learn from, but then...

divorce and remarriage, for instance. divorce is not OK, unless you can score an annulment. basically...divorce is not OK, unless you're a Kennedy. done.

contained in-fighting -- conservatives, ultra-conservatives, progressives, borderline socialists...in one church, OK...actually agreeing on and practicing -the same faith- ? highly doubtful. I don't know how the Catholic Church produced both Scalia and Dorothy Day, but I'm kind of thinking they have 2 -very- different concepts of The Good News.

sin categories -- I dunno. I do think there are degrees of sin. Sodomy, for instance, is singled out as an abomination. ugh. I'm not saying that with any self-loathing or anything, just...as a dude who was gay as a 3 dollar bill till Jesus saved (is saving, will save me...), its one of those -less palatable- parts of Scripture, I guess I'm saying. and yet...

I kind of get the impression that the RCC has fashioned a massive combination of dogma and tradition on top of Jesus' ministry, and I'm afraid...honestly, too much of it strikes me as antithetical to The Good News (and, sadly, subject to change over time) for me to truly believe that the RCC is a) the one, true church and/or b) truly 100% Scriptural and/or enough in line with Scripture to be fully and completed accepted. And so...

to me, that makes it a more deceptive sort of dead end than some other churches out there. to be fair, given the -huge- gap between the Church dogma, etc. and the work a day believer, I'm sure that lots and lots and lots of work a day Catholics are truly saved...

just not -because- of their Catholicism. make sense?

 

[Walpole]

I mean deceptive, because they have --so-- much material to learn from, but then...

divorce and remarriage, for instance. divorce is not OK, unless you can score an annulment. basically...divorce is not OK, unless you're a Kennedy. done.

This is terrible misrepresentation of what an annulment is (and is not). Divorce terminates a valid marriage. Annulment is a legislative or judicial invalidation of a marriage. There is no system of civil marriage law in the Western Christian world that does not have both distinctions (divorce and annulment).

Even the progenitors of Protestantism themselves upheld, taught and established rules and laws for the annulment of marriages. (Simply Google John Calvin’s Marriage Ordinance of 1546 in Geneva for example.)

The practice of annulment of a sacrament is even performed in most Protestant churches today, whether they admit it or not.

contained in-fighting -- conservatives, ultra-conservatives, progressives, borderline socialists...in one church, OK...actually agreeing on and practicing -the same faith- ? highly doubtful. I don't know how the Catholic Church produced both Scalia and Dorothy Day, but I'm kind of thinking they have 2 -very- different concepts of The Good News.

Infighting in the Church has been an issue from the beginning. One need simply read the epistles of St. Paul!

sin categories -- I dunno. I do think there are degrees of sin. Sodomy, for instance, is singled out as an abomination. ugh. I'm not saying that with any self-loathing or anything, just...as a dude who was gay as a 3 dollar bill till Jesus saved (is saving, will save me...), its one of those -less palatable- parts of Scripture, I guess I'm saying. and yet...

Sin "categories" is found right in the Scriptures. For example, our Blessed Lord said to Pilate, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.” (John 19:11)

We also have the distinction made by St. John...

"If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that." (1 John 5:16)

I kind of get the impression that the RCC has fashioned a massive combination of dogma and tradition on top of Jesus' ministry, and I'm afraid...honestly, too much of it strikes me as antithetical to The Good News (and, sadly, subject to change over time) for me to truly believe that the RCC is a) the one, true church and/or b) truly 100% Scriptural and/or enough in line with Scripture to be fully and completed accepted. And so...

to me, that makes it a more deceptive sort of dead end than some other churches out there. to be fair, given the -huge- gap between the Church dogma, etc. and the work a day believer, I'm sure that lots and lots and lots of work a day Catholics are truly saved...

just not -because- of their Catholicism. make sense?

I find many want to simply truncate the Gospel and strip it down to simply just professing belief that there exists a God and that Jesus Christ is the messiah. Get rid of baptism, get rid of the Eucharist, etc. and ignore the difficult teachings of Jesus and instead just simply believe and you will be saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

I mean deceptive, because they have --so-- much material to learn from, but then...

divorce and remarriage, for instance. divorce is not OK, unless you can score an annulment. basically...divorce is not OK, unless you're a Kennedy. done.

Divorce is not OK. This is right.
However, there are circumstances where the CC does allow divorce.
One would by physical abuse of a spouse or of the children.
Another would be adultery, although the couple would be encouraged to stay together.
Another reason would be the squandering of family money.

As for an annulment,,,a marriage can only be annulled when the ceremony (ritual) took place under false circumstances...
for instance - the couple was agreed to have children and after marriage one of the two decided they did not want children.
A wedding that was forced upon a couple...
and other reasons.

Some years ago the CC was supposed to stop charging for annulments..I don't know if this ever happened.
The reason a charge is necessary is because a Catholic lawyer has to preside over the procedure, this would be a Canon Attorney.

contained in-fighting -- conservatives, ultra-conservatives, progressives, borderline socialists...in one church, OK...actually agreeing on and practicing -the same faith- ? highly doubtful. I don't know how the Catholic Church produced both Scalia and Dorothy Day, but I'm kind of thinking they have 2 -very- different concepts of The Good News.

I don't know who Dorothy Day is. Some persons THINK they're Catholic, but really they are not.
I have friends like this.

sin categories -- I dunno. I do think there are degrees of sin. Sodomy, for instance, is singled out as an abomination. ugh. I'm not saying that with any self-loathing or anything, just...as a dude who was gay as a 3 dollar bill till Jesus saved (is saving, will save me...), its one of those -less palatable- parts of Scripture, I guess I'm saying. and yet...

The N.T. speaks of different types of sin....
I can't look it up right now..maybe you could?
Jesus said there are some sins that are greater than others.
Please tag me if you find it.

I kind of get the impression that the RCC has fashioned a massive combination of dogma and tradition on top of Jesus' ministry, and I'm afraid...honestly, too much of it strikes me as antithetical to The Good News (and, sadly, subject to change over time) for me to truly believe that the RCC is a) the one, true church and/or b) truly 100% Scriptural and/or enough in line with Scripture to be fully and completed accepted. And so...

to me, that makes it a more deceptive sort of dead end than some other churches out there. to be fair, given the -huge- gap between the Church dogma, etc. and the work a day believer, I'm sure that lots and lots and lots of work a day Catholics are truly saved...

just not -because- of their Catholicism. make sense?

Right. We are saved because we believe in God and desire to follow His way.
We trust Jesus atonement and want to be His disciples.

If you go back in history, you'll find that the CC is indeed the church that was around from the beginning...this can be traced - it doesn't take much study; it's plain history.

I agree with you that it changed from the beginning and I also am sorry about this.
I suppose it meant to become better and better.
(I'm too tired to discuss this! )

 

[Christ_empowered]

on the "categories on sin..."

it would appear that I started, but obviously did not develop nor complete, my thought. I was going to type that Scripture -does- seem to rank some sins are worse than others, but I don't think I've ever seen any Bible verses that lay things out for NT believers, from bad to Hell-fire. I -do- appreciate that the RCC has stuck with the Scripture in declaring some sins less serious and others never acceptable, however...

I'm not entirely convinced their approach is Biblical. Abortion? Scripture itself is -remarkably- silent on the issue. Which does not mean that abortion is acceptable, but...always, always, always prohibited, even when the woman's life is in danger? really? the contraception stuff I'm more mixed about. Turns out...

"the pill" and many other forms of birth control (for the ladies, of course) carry their own burdens, plus it seems that now hormones are floating around the world's water supply, largely because of the pill. true story. so, I can see emphasizing non-medical family planning...

for true believers in loving, safe, committed, monogamous marriages in which both believing spouses can take the time to do church-approved family planning and also afford any kids born from slip ups.

I'm not gung ho anti-Catholic, I just...not so convinced it is the one, true Church.

 

[GodsGrace]

on the "categories on sin..."

it would appear that I started, but obviously did not develop nor complete, my thought. I was going to type that Scripture -does- seem to rank some sins are worse than others, but I don't think I've ever seen any Bible verses that lay things out for NT believers, from bad to Hell-fire. I -do- appreciate that the RCC has stuck with the Scripture in declaring some sins less serious and others never acceptable, however...

I'm not entirely convinced their approach is Biblical. Abortion? Scripture itself is -remarkably- silent on the issue. Which does not mean that abortion is acceptable, but...always, always, always prohibited, even when the woman's life is in danger? really? the contraception stuff I'm more mixed about. Turns out...

Thou Shall Not Kill

Isn't abortion killing a person?
And one that cannot defend himself.

The woman's life is in danger.
This is so rare.
One must follow their conscience.
And if they opt for the life of the mother...surely God will be merciful.
We must always be at the cross on our knees.

God hates sin.
God hates that we do not worship him.
God hates wickedness.

We cannot know God's mind, but must entrust ourselves to His grace and mercy.

"the pill" and many other forms of birth control (for the ladies, of course) carry their own burdens, plus it seems that now hormones are floating around the world's water supply, largely because of the pill. true story. so, I can see emphasizing non-medical family planning...

for true believers in loving, safe, committed, monogamous marriages in which both believing spouses can take the time to do church-approved family planning and also afford any kids born from slip ups.

I'm not gung ho anti-Catholic, I just...not so convinced it is the one, true Church.

What do you mean by the "one, true church"?

 

[Christ_empowered]

i mean...when I signed up to do RCIA, -that- was part of the appeal. of course...nobody notified me about when the classes would begin basically till the day of, so I shook it off...they did email me notes, however. quite helpful

it seems the RCC currently regards most Protestants as "separate brethren," and honors baptisms from most other denominations, in the even of conversion. and yet...

I seem to recall reading that the RCC holds that the "separate brethren" are all in varying degrees of error, from the denominational level on down to the individual believer. hence, the RCC still believes itself to be -- and I could be mistaken, of course -- the true Church, the one staying closest to The Good News, etc.

 

[PaulChristensen]

i mean...when I signed up to do RCIA, -that- was part of the appeal. of course...nobody notified me about when the classes would begin basically till the day of, so I shook it off...they did email me notes, however. quite helpful

it seems the RCC currently regards most Protestants as "separate brethren," and honors baptisms from most other denominations, in the even of conversion. and yet...

I seem to recall reading that the RCC holds that the "separate brethren" are all in varying degrees of error, from the denominational level on down to the individual believer. hence, the RCC still believes itself to be -- and I could be mistaken, of course -- the true Church, the one staying closest to The Good News, etc.

The reality is that the RCC is a fraud.

 

[Serving Zion]

[ACMP=announcement]
This thread has been created from an existing thread where it was found to be discussing new matters.

Carry on!

- Moderator
[/ACMP]

 

[WIP]

The woman's life is in danger.
This is so rare.
One must follow their conscience.
And if they opt for the life of the mother...surely God will be merciful.
We must always be at the cross on our knees.

To not save the life of the mother when the knowledge/technology is available, would that not be a form of murder in itself? Just thinkin'.

 

[GodsGrace]

To not save the life of the mother when the knowledge/technology is available, would that not be a form of murder in itself? Just thinkin'.

But what if the choice is to save the mother or the child?

How does a person make such a decision?

 

[WIP]

i mean...when I signed up to do RCIA, -that- was part of the appeal. of course...nobody notified me about when the classes would begin basically till the day of, so I shook it off...they did email me notes, however. quite helpful

it seems the RCC currently regards most Protestants as "separate brethren," and honors baptisms from most other denominations, in the even of conversion. and yet...

I seem to recall reading that the RCC holds that the "separate brethren" are all in varying degrees of error, from the denominational level on down to the individual believer. hence, the RCC still believes itself to be -- and I could be mistaken, of course -- the true Church, the one staying closest to The Good News, etc.

Don't all denominations believe they have it right? If not, they'd be wishy-washy in their faith, would they not? Consider how quickly some members here get belligerent toward Catholic members. There was a time, in the not so distant past, when discussions of Catholic topics were forbidden on CFnet because of how quickly they become uncivilized.

 

[WIP]

But what if the choice is to save the mother or the child?

How does a person make such a decision?

I was speaking about sacrificing one for the other. Which is the Christian thing to do?

 

[GodsGrace]

I was speaking about sacrificing one for the other. Which is the Christian thing to do?

The mother should be sacrificed for the child.
But then who raises the child?
Morally, it's better for me to decide on taking my life,,,than the life of another. (The baby).

 

[GodsGrace]

The reality is that the RCC is a fraud.

How?

Is The Word of Faith a fraud?
Hyper grace?
Calvinism - which changes the very nature of God....

What's the difference?

 

[WIP]

How?

Is The Word of Faith a fraud?
Hyper grace?
Calvinism - which changes the very nature of God....

What's the difference?

I don't fully understand the animosity Protestants have toward the Catholic church and vise versa. We protestants can have civil conversations between each other despite our disagreements more easily than we can with Catholics. Why is that?

I can think of a few things about other Protestant denominations that I really question just as I question some Catholic traditions and beliefs. There are traditions and beliefs in my own Lutheran church that I question and there are things I miss from my Catholic upbringing such as the traditional acts of reverence which is lacking some in most protestant churches and confession although I do have misgivings about the Catholic practice of confession with regard to how penance is administered.

I think God can use all of us to learn from each other.

 

[Fastfredy0]

it seems the RCC currently regards most Protestants as "separate brethren," and honors baptisms from most other denominations, in the even of conversion. and yet...

I think the 'official' version is protestants are in grave danger of going to hell. That is not to say all R.C.s think this to be so.

What the Roman Catholic Church believes about those who disagree with the Church as stated in the Council of Trent. http://www.wordexplain.com/Anathemas_and_the_Council_of_Trent.html

Anathema - a formal curse by a pope or a council of the Church, excommunicating a person or denouncing a doctrine.

The article says, "As the reader can see, all Protestants who do not agree with everything the Roman Catholic Church teaches in the sessions with anathemas are in mortal danger of hellfire."

 

[Fastfredy0]

Don't all denominations believe they have it right?

Each of us know we don't have it "all" right, we just don't know where we are wrong. There is no denomination that does not have internal disagreement.

Aside: The REFORMED people are the closest to being "all" right .... (Well, that is what I think is correct, but it is possible I am wrong)

 

[Fastfredy0]

We protestants can have civil conversations between each other despite our disagreements more easily than we can with Catholics. Why is that?

We like people who agree with themselves.
Two cannot walk together unless they are agreed. God loves those that agree with Him. To be IN CHRIST is have maximum agreement on earth. To be glorified is to eliminate sin/disagreement.