The Charismatic Church movement

[gr8grace3]

I agree with you, this verse is not talking about supernatural gifts. It does not say 'gifts plural' it is gift 'singular'.
Sometimes verses are used to support a belief when they shouldn't be. It becomes a common support verse. So what I think just happened between you and me is that when I mentioned this verse, using it correctly, you seemed to have assumed that I was using it to support the idea that the gifts are for today. But that is not why I quoted it.
I was simply stating that I believe that all believers receive the same Holy Spirit in the same way, when they believe.
I also believe that because some have been given the power to work supernatural healing, word of knowledge, etc. does not mean they have more of the Holy Spirit. They are just being used differently in the Body. It is because they believe and accept it.
The Father does not force a person to be saved and He doesn't force them to receive all that He has for them.
I believe that believers will receive what they believe, desire, and is in the will of the Father. They believe in their salvation and receive it, they believe in the Holy Spirit and receive Him, and some will believe in the supernatural gifts and if it is the Father's will they will receive.

Ok Sorry Deb. But At least there was confirmation that you are correct! On those specific verses.

But that isn't really the question. The question is, did God stop using believers to edify the church by the use of supernatural gifts?

This really Isn't the question. Because, No, God has not stopped using believers to edify the church by the use of supernatural gifts. The real question is,"Have some of these supernatural gifts ceased."
Being a Pastor teacher is a supernatural gift. They edify the church. Its just that we have men(lots of men) who are faking it.
The gift of helps is a supernatural gift. They edify the Church.
And many more.

Does/has any man know/n all the things of God?

No. Just because a man doesn't know,doesn't make the word any less complete. I see the perfect as the Bible. If you see it differently clue me in please.

Since you, or any other Christian, having come face to face with the Canon, know (all things about God) even as He knows them/you?

This reads the same to me as your above question.
No. Just because I do not see it perfectly, does not make it imperfect.
James 1:23-25~~23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; 24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was. 25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

 

[gr8grace3]

This is such a strange argument to me.

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. 1 Corinthians 13:12 (ESV)

We shall fully know when the téleios comes, which this word comes from the root "tel," which means reaching the end of. It is in a sense of perfection that is reached at the end of something, full maturation, complete, perfect. This could potentially mean the Canon, but the Canon didn't come together really until the Synod of Hippo 393 AD.

That means that people would still be speaking tongues and prophesying until that time. This certainly extends beyond the time of the Apostles, but the purpose of the gifts were never to be for revelation, but rather the up-building of the church, which is still necessary today.

The Perfect coming of course is Jesus, and it is then that we know fully, as there are many things we now do not know. The point of Paul's argument in 1 Corinthians 13 which is still relevant today, is that in eternity, love will be the thing that endures and these spiritual gifts will cease and pass away. That to love each other is more important because these divisions and arguments over spiritual gifts are temporary things that really are supposed to be used in love, in the spirit of building one another up. That's why Paul put this argument here.

For now(Pauls time of writing) we see in a mirror a riddle,But then(Completed scripture 96 ad) face to face[with all the scripture.] Now I know in part[part of the riddle]; then[96ad] I shall know fully[the riddle]........God speaks to His prophets by riddles except for Moses Num 12:8, “With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings,”

 

[Deborah13]

Ok Sorry Deb. But At least there was confirmation that you are correct! On those specific verses.


This really Isn't the question. Because, No, God has not stopped using believers to edify the church by the use of supernatural gifts. The real question is,"Have some of these supernatural gifts ceased."
Being a Pastor teacher is a supernatural gift. They edify the church. Its just that we have men(lots of men) who are faking it.
The gift of helps is a supernatural gift. They edify the Church.
And many more.





No. Just because a man doesn't know,doesn't make the word any less complete. I see the perfect as the Bible. If you see it differently clue me in please.

This reads the same to me as your above question.
No. Just because I do not see it perfectly, does not make it imperfect.
James 1:23-25~~23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; 24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was. 25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

OK so we a matter of semantics between the differences in those gifts but it really doesn't matter. I see that Paul separates them here...Paul's description.
1Co 12:4 And there are diversities of gifts, and the same Spirit;
1Co 12:5 and there are diversities of ministrations, and the same Lord;
1Co 12:6 and there are diversities of workings, and it is the same God--who is working the all in all.
Pastors, teachers, etc. are diversities of ministrations, given by the same Lord.
Diversities of gifts, given by the same Spirit.
He lists the gifts given by the same Spirit.
1Co 12:7 And to each hath been given the manifestation of the Spirit for profit;
1Co 12:8 for to one through the Spirit hath been given a word of wisdom, and to another a word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 and to another faith in the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healings in the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 and to another in-workings of mighty deeds; and to another prophecy; and to another discernings of spirits; and to another divers kinds of tongues; and to another interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 and all these doth work the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each severally as he intendeth.

You see that the gifts in this list have been done away, is that correct? If not, which ones stayed which ones does the Spirit no longer give?

 

[Deborah13]

No. Just because a man doesn't know,doesn't make the word any less complete. I see the perfect as the Bible. If you see it differently clue me in please.

Yes, I believe all the Bible was given to the authors by the Holy Spirit. Perfect.

This reads the same to me as your above question.
No. Just because I do not see it perfectly, does not make it imperfect.

I don't see it as an, "if it's not talking about the Canon that somehow makes the Canon imperfect", it doesn't. It's not an either/or statement.

1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Paul is speaking the 'I' in this statement is Paul himself.

Paul says, that he knows in part. But that when the perfect comes he will know even as he is known. "now I (Paul) know in part; but then shall I (Paul) know even as also I (Paul) am known."

So Paul was saying that when the Canon comes he will no longer know in part, he will know as he is known?

 

[gr8grace3]

OK so we a matter of semantics between the differences in those gifts but it really doesn't matter. I see that Paul separates them here...Paul's description.
1Co 12:4 And there are diversities of gifts, and the same Spirit;
1Co 12:5 and there are diversities of ministrations, and the same Lord;
1Co 12:6 and there are diversities of workings, and it is the same God--who is working the all in all.
Pastors, teachers, etc. are diversities of ministrations, given by the same Lord.
Diversities of gifts, given by the same Spirit.
He lists the gifts given by the same Spirit.
1Co 12:7 And to each hath been given the manifestation of the Spirit for profit;
1Co 12:8 for to one through the Spirit hath been given a word of wisdom, and to another a word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 and to another faith in the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healings in the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 and to another in-workings of mighty deeds; and to another prophecy; and to another discernings of spirits; and to another divers kinds of tongues; and to another interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 and all these doth work the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each severally as he intendeth.

You see that the gifts in this list have been done away, is that correct? If not, which ones stayed which ones does the Spirit no longer give?

Yes, I see all of them as temporary and have ceased. The complete instructions to the Church were not written yet and some men had spiritual Gifts that could teach wisdom(Advanced doctrine),knowledge(teach the gospel message) without the complete scriptures.

The Faith~~Was not the ordinary faith of salvation. It was beyond salvation faith. 1 Cor 13:2. And the disciples asked for it in Luke 17:5-6

Healings/Miracles~~They were used to validate the message. And the message had not been fully revealed and validated yet.

Prophecy~~the ability to tell the future, to get an unbelievers attention. Now that we have the complete writings. All the information we have to present on salvation and how to have a relationship with God is recorded in the scriptures. Our words from scriptures motivate the unbeliever and get his attention.

Spirits~~some had the ability to instantly tell if the healing/miracle/prophecy was from the Holy Spirit or an evil spirit. the scriptures were not complete and the saints had not been given total instructions on how to equip themselves yet. The Scriptures and bible doctrine equip us with the tools and discernment for this today.

Tongues and interpretation~~70ad when "this people"(the Jews) went under the 5th cycle of discipline.

 

[Deborah13]

Yes, I see all of them as temporary and have ceased. The complete instructions to the Church were not written yet and some men had spiritual Gifts that could teach wisdom(Advanced doctrine),knowledge(teach the gospel message) without the complete scriptures.

The Faith~~Was not the ordinary faith of salvation. It was beyond salvation faith. 1 Cor 13:2. And the disciples asked for it in Luke 17:5-6

Healings/Miracles~~They were used to validate the message. And the message had not been fully revealed and validated yet.

Prophecy~~the ability to tell the future, to get an unbelievers attention. Now that we have the complete writings. All the information we have to present on salvation and how to have a relationship with God is recorded in the scriptures. Our words from scriptures motivate the unbeliever and get his attention.

Spirits~~some had the ability to instantly tell if the healing/miracle/prophecy was from the Holy Spirit or an evil spirit. the scriptures were not complete and the saints had not been given total instructions on how to equip themselves yet. The Scriptures and bible doctrine equip us with the tools and discernment for this today.

Tongues and interpretation~~70ad when "this people"(the Jews) went under the 5th cycle of discipline.

OK, we agree that these are the ones you see are no longer needed and that I call supernatural.
I'll wait for your response to post #304.

 

[gr8grace3]

Yes, I believe all the Bible was given to the authors by the Holy Spirit. Perfect.


I don't see it as an, "if it's not talking about the Canon that somehow makes the Canon imperfect", it doesn't. It's not an either/or statement.

1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Paul is speaking the 'I' in this statement is Paul himself.

Paul says, that he knows in part. But that when the perfect comes he will know even as he is known. "now I (Paul) know in part; but then shall I (Paul) know even as also I (Paul) am known."

So Paul was saying that when the Canon comes he will no longer know in part, he will know as he is known?

First off Deb, what do you think the "perfect" is?

1 Cor 13:12, the darkly~~ "is a riddle" Paul has a part of the riddle. His audience knows him and his part of the riddle so far. He has yet to write other parts of the riddle. And others are writing their parts of the riddle.

When all the parts of the riddle come together Paul will know the full riddle, just as his audience knew Pauls part of the riddle when He was teaching them.

"even as also I am known"~~His audience knew and believed Pauls part of the riddle. He was known by his audience and his part of the riddle.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

For now(Pauls time of writing) we see in a mirror a riddle,But then(Completed scripture 96 ad) face to face[with all the scripture.] Now I know in part[part of the riddle]; then[96ad] I shall know fully[the riddle]........God speaks to His prophets by riddles except for Moses Num 12:8, “With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings,”

Where are you getting "riddle" from. It seems your whole interpretation relies on an inserted word.

 

[gr8grace3]

Where are you getting "riddle" from. It seems your whole interpretation relies on an inserted word.

From the neuter singular noun AINIGMA, which means literally, “a riddle, then came to mean an indirect or indistinct image; by reflection, dimly in a mirror.”[1]

[1] Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.

 

[Deborah13]

First off Deb, what do you think the "perfect" is?

1 Cor 13:12, the darkly~~ "is a riddle" Paul has a part of the riddle. His audience knows him and his part of the riddle so far. He has yet to write other parts of the riddle. And others are writing their parts of the riddle.

When all the parts of the riddle come together Paul will know the full riddle, just as his audience knew Pauls part of the riddle when He was teaching them.

"even as also I am known"~~His audience knew and believed Pauls part of the riddle. He was known by his audience and his part of the riddle.

Simple explanation....I believe the perfect is the Lord.

 

[reba]

 

[Deborah13]

From the neuter singular noun AINIGMA, which means literally, “a riddle, then came to mean an indirect or indistinct image; by reflection, dimly in a mirror.”[1]

[1] Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.

And what is a riddle? Something that is not fully understood or obscure.
And enigma can be someone or something that is puzzling, mysterious, not clear.

So Paul said, now we see through a glass that is not clear, it's obscure, not fully understood. We know in part.

 

[Deborah13]

Are you making fun of me? I know, I am long winded.

 

[reba]

LOL goodness ... I was shocked that a Christian would have the silly idea that our Lord is perfect...

 

[Kathi]

LOL goodness ... I was shocked that a Christian would have the silly idea that our Lord is perfect...

What a bizarre thought for a Christian to have..

 

[gr8grace3]

Simple explanation....I believe the perfect is the Lord.

1 Cor 13:12~~For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

2 Cor 3:15-18~~15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

James 1:23~~For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror;

James 1:25~~But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

From scriptures the Perfect/mirror do point to the completed, perfect word.

 

[gr8grace3]

And what is a riddle? Something that is not fully understood or obscure.
And enigma can be someone or something that is puzzling, mysterious, not clear.

So Paul said, now we see through a glass that is not clear, it's obscure, not fully understood. We know in part.

But the Glass and the mirror directly point to the completed word. It wasn't finished at that time and our veil is removed when we believe.2 Cor 3:18. So what is dim at that moment is the incomplete canon and our incomplete revelation from God.

 

[Deborah13]

LOL goodness ... I was shocked that a Christian would have the silly idea that our Lord is perfect...

 

[Deborah13]

1 Cor 13:12~~For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

2 Cor 3:15-18~~15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.


James 1:23~~For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror;

James 1:25~~But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

From scriptures the Perfect/mirror do point to the completed, perfect word.

I'm not sure what your point is here? A mirror in all the text is a reflective surface.
In each verse the mirror/reflection has a different purpose and speaks of different things.

The reflective surface/mirror image in this verse is obscure, it is not clear. What we see is not clear.
So Paul says that what he and us know is an unclear, obscure, image of the truth of all the things of the Lord. We and Paul, do not know everything. We know in part.

 

[Deborah13]

But the Glass and the mirror directly point to the completed word. It wasn't finished at that time and our veil is removed when we believe.2 Cor 3:18. So what is dim at that moment is the incomplete canon and our incomplete revelation from God.

How could Paul be saying that the Canon, which came almost 300 yrs. after his death, would help him to no longer know in part? How would the Canon help the people he was speaking to, no longer know in part?