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The Charismatic Movement

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The more I study it the phonier it appears to be. I thought it was probably a good thing. I mean what's wrong with claiming spiritual gifts are not a thing of the past? But these guys saying that everyone has to speak in tongues or they have not received the Spirit are full of it.
 
The Charismatic Movement can't be generalized and call the whole thing phony. Just because God is not doing something in your life, not you specifically OP but more a general term, you can't say the He isn't doing it anymore. I agree that what a lot of what people have seen is an abuse of Spiritual Gifts and turned it into a theatrical performance. And that's a real shame. Because there is real power from the Holy Spirit, and we should desire those gifts. Of course for His glory, not ours. To say that the gifts of the Holy Spirit is a thing of the past, is a misunderstanding of scripture. And the scriptures do NOT say that all will speak in tongues. The Church is the body of Christ. As in any body, we're all made up of different parts, and have different functions. But we all need each other.
 
-HUMBLED- said:
The Charismatic Movement can't be generalized and call the whole thing phony. Just because God is not doing something in your life, not you specifically OP but more a general term, you can't say the He isn't doing it anymore. I agree that what a lot of what people have seen is an abuse of Spiritual Gifts and turned it into a theatrical performance. And that's a real shame. Because there is real power from the Holy Spirit, and we should desire those gifts. Of course for His glory, not ours. To say that the gifts of the Holy Spirit is a thing of the past, is a misunderstanding of scripture. And the scriptures do NOT say that all will speak in tongues. The Church is the body of Christ. As in any body, we're all made up of different parts, and have different functions. But we all need each other.

Spot on, the Charismatic movement is a very broad thing, there are several different belief's within it, I was baptised last year and spoke in tongues 6 months later, I can assure you I was a believer in the intermediate phase.

Moreover I think the OP may have misunderstood, when we say that they have received the holy spirit we are referring to baptism of the holy spirit (usually evidenced by speaking in tongues more often than another gift), not salvation. Those who do not yet possess the spiritual gifts are no less saved than a person who had them all (I haven't seen someone who had them all, seems everyone gets a couple.)

Although I can't deny that some variations of the movement probably do believe your not saved till your baptised in the holy spirit... oh well.
 
and i correct those when i bring up the theif on the cross. He didnt have the holy ghost when he died,yet Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise.
 
The Charismatic movement? Been there, done that. I prefer the old-time, mainline Pentecostal denominations---the Cleveland, Tennessee, Church of God; the Pentecostal Holiness; Apostolic, etc., to the Charismatic madness. I allegedly received the alleged 'Baptism of the Holy Spirit' and spoke in tongues in a charismatic Southern Baptist Church. But, as a RC at the time, I don't think I was even saved at the time. Needless to say, I attended some charismatic Episcopal Masses and charismatic Catholic prayer groups, but I never really got 'in' to it. Tongues did nothing for me, so I stopped prayong in tongues, and asked the Lord that if it wasn't real, then to not let me speak in tongues again, and I haven't. Big time heresies in the Charismatic movement. I would advise anyone to avoid charismatism, as well as the old-line Pentecostals who participate in it. I oppose the 'ordination' of women, and this is a big deal in the movement. Now, everybody is an 'Apostle' or a 'Prophetess,' 'Bishop', 'Archbishop,' and breaking out into liturgical vestments(and wearing them incorrectly). I say, just stay away.
 
Steve said:
The Charismatic movement? Been there, done that. I prefer the old-time, mainline Pentecostal denominations---the Cleveland, Tennessee, Church of God; the Pentecostal Holiness; Apostolic, etc., to the Charismatic madness. I allegedly received the alleged 'Baptism of the Holy Spirit' and spoke in tongues in a charismatic Southern Baptist Church. But, as a RC at the time, I don't think I was even saved at the time. Needless to say, I attended some charismatic Episcopal Masses and charismatic Catholic prayer groups, but I never really got 'in' to it. Tongues did nothing for me, so I stopped prayong in tongues, and asked the Lord that if it wasn't real, then to not let me speak in tongues again, and I haven't. Big time heresies in the Charismatic movement. I would advise anyone to avoid charismatism, as well as the old-line Pentecostals who participate in it. I oppose the 'ordination' of women, and this is a big deal in the movement. Now, everybody is an 'Apostle' or a 'Prophetess,' 'Bishop', 'Archbishop,' and breaking out into liturgical vestments(and wearing them incorrectly). I say, just stay away.


I think that I will "just stay away". I am being led away from a pastor that I enjoyed listening to very much.

Thanks for posting.
 
Our pastor had a catchy praise that pretty much sums it up.
"If it's true, it's not new. If it's new, it's not true."

I don't see progressive revelation in scripture anyway.
 
Rick W said:
I don't see progressive revelation in scripture anyway.
I agree.
Its all pretty much set in stone in there.
There was this 'New Wave' theology that I crossed some years back that I think was part of the beginning of these 'new' revelation type teachings.
 
Rick W said:
Our pastor had a catchy praise that pretty much sums it up.
"If it's true, it's not new. If it's new, it's not true."

I don't see progressive revelation in scripture anyway.

What specifically do you mean by new as it relates to the charismatic movement? The gifts of the spirit were alive and well with the first disciples. So at least in that aspect there is nothing new there.
 
-HUMBLED- said:
What specifically do you mean by new as it relates to the charismatic movement? The gifts of the spirit were alive and well with the first disciples. So at least in that aspect there is nothing new there.

When did the "charismatic movement" begin?
 
Rick W said:
[quote="-HUMBLED-":ogp0evmi]

What specifically do you mean by new as it relates to the charismatic movement? The gifts of the spirit were alive and well with the first disciples. So at least in that aspect there is nothing new there.

When did the "charismatic movement" begin?[/quote:ogp0evmi]

I guess most would say the azure street revival

Steve said:
The Charismatic movement? Been there, done that. I prefer the old-time, mainline Pentecostal denominations---the Cleveland, Tennessee, Church of God; the Pentecostal Holiness; Apostolic, etc., to the Charismatic madness. I allegedly received the alleged 'Baptism of the Holy Spirit' and spoke in tongues in a charismatic Southern Baptist Church. But, as a RC at the time, I don't think I was even saved at the time. Needless to say, I attended some charismatic Episcopal Masses and charismatic Catholic prayer groups, but I never really got 'in' to it. Tongues did nothing for me, so I stopped prayong in tongues, and asked the Lord that if it wasn't real, then to not let me speak in tongues again, and I haven't. Big time heresies in the Charismatic movement. I would advise anyone to avoid charismatism, as well as the old-line Pentecostals who participate in it. I oppose the 'ordination' of women, and this is a big deal in the movement. Now, everybody is an 'Apostle' or a 'Prophetess,' 'Bishop', 'Archbishop,' and breaking out into liturgical vestments(and wearing them incorrectly). I say, just stay away.

Thats a somewhat narrow opinion of the charismatic movement which I think you may have formed from seeing a few very bad examples. Care to expand upon the "big time heresies", I'm always up for discussion on such a matter
 
Slyvena said:
Rick W said:
-HUMBLED-":nxppqvqh] What specifically do you mean by new as it relates to the charismatic movement? The gifts of the spirit were alive and well with the first disciples. So at least in that aspect there is nothing new there.[/quote] When did the "charismatic movement" begin?[/quote] I guess most would say the azure street revival [/quote:nxppqvqh] azure street revival Led by William J. Seymour 1906 [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_Movement said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_Movement[/url]

"The term Charismatic Movement describes the adoption (circa 1960 onwards for Protestants, 1967 onwards for Roman Catholics) of certain beliefs typical of those held by Pentecostal Christians by those within the historic denominations.[1] The term "charismatic" was first coined by Harald Bredesen, a Lutheran minister, in 1962, to describe what was happening at that time in the old-line churches. Confronted with the term "neo-Pentecostal," he said "We prefer the title 'the charismatic renewal in the historic churches.'"[2] The genesis of the Charismatic Movement however is variously attributed to Father Dennis Bennett, an Episcopal priest, in 1960. His book Nine O'Clock in the Morning gives a personal account of this period.[3]"

Compared to the age the first disciples testified the movement is new, with modern emphasis on spiritual gifts one being speaking in tongues.
I must ask though. Is there an interpreter present every time when people speak in tongues?
 
Rick W said:
[quote="-HUMBLED-":3gzb3kix]

What specifically do you mean by new as it relates to the charismatic movement? The gifts of the spirit were alive and well with the first disciples. So at least in that aspect there is nothing new there.

When did the "charismatic movement" begin?[/quote:3gzb3kix]

Yeah that's not a simple question I guess. Perhaps what's known today as the "Charismatic Movement" is new. But what I meant in my question was more in the lines with the gifts of the Holy Spirit that were present from the beginning. Including tongues, healings, miracles and so on. So I'd say that the gifts of the Holy Spirit were there at the beginning of the Church, as in on the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came upon the believers, but I don't honestly know when the "charismatic movement", as it's called, actually began. I think perhaps in the beginning of the 20th century at the Azuza street revival. At least that's the little bit of information that I know about it. However I believe that at that event is where the Pentecostal movement got started. However I must admit my church history isn't that good. As in I really haven't studied it too much.
 
Rick W said:
I must ask though. Is there an interpreter present every time when people speak in tongues?

Well at my former church this usually was the case. However I know that recently it happened to me personally as I was out for a walk by myself and was praying to God and asking him very intimate questions about my life and I remember addressing the Holy Spirit directly and crying out to Him when I suddenly began to speak in tongues. This lasted for about 25 minutes or so. But I was by myself and did not understand what I said, but it was a feeling overwhelming love I felt from God telling me that He was still with me. It was amazing. And believe me, I seldom had spoken in tongues up to that point. I don't even attend a charismatic church anymore.
 
-HUMBLED- said:
[quote="Rick W":1t779j0c]I must ask though. Is there an interpreter present every time when people speak in tongues?

Well at my former church this usually was the case. However I know that recently it happened to me personally as I was out for a walk by myself and was praying to God and asking him very intimate questions about my life and I remember addressing the Holy Spirit directly and crying out to Him when I suddenly began to speak in tongues. This lasted for about 25 minutes or so. But I was by myself and did not understand what I said, but it was a feeling overwhelming love I felt from God telling me that He was still with me. It was amazing. And believe me, I seldom had spoken in tongues up to that point. I don't even attend a charismatic church anymore.[/quote:1t779j0c]

I, too, spoke in tongues and was involved with the Charismatic movement for about 2 years. Then, I found out from the word of God that not all supernatural occurrences are necessarily from the Lord. There are counterfeit gifts as well and they too give good feelings.I was scared and amazed at this revelation. I understood that is how the devil will deceive the very elect.
 
I believe yes the gifts of the HS including praying in tongues is very very real. I don't control it and let God and the HS. It saddens me to see people abuse the gifts. From what I have studied in the bible it is denying the power of the HS which in a sense could be blasphemy. Our pastors have done an excellent way with scriptures of why the praying in tongues is so so important. It's a free gift. There are things God has shown me because I do pray that way. If you let God guide you instead of looking into theology than your eyes will be opened. We allow God to guide us and know that what me and my husband have in our lives is because of the tapping into heaven daily with our prayer.
 
ronniechoate34 said:
The more I study it the phonier it appears to be. I thought it was probably a good thing. I mean what's wrong with claiming spiritual gifts are not a thing of the past? But these guys saying that everyone has to speak in tongues or they have not received the Spirit are full of it.
There are MANY believers who believe the gifts have not past away who do not believe that you must have tongues. It is just that tongues is one of the most common gifts these days.
 
Oy! :shrug

follower of Christ said:
http://www.wayoflife.org/files/9e565045 ... b-202.html[/url]

Thus, it appears that this is not a small issue or one that will go away any time soon. Rankin and those supporting his position are trying to distinguish between public tongues and private, saying that while they are opposed to public tongues they believe there is a private form of tongues that one can use to edify oneself. (wow!!!)]

In fact, biblical tongues are biblical tongues. The tongues of Acts are the tongues of 1 Corinthians 14. They were real languages that a believer could speak supernaturally. They were a sign to the nation Israel that God was going to send the gospel to every nation and create a new spiritual body composed of both Jews and Gentiles (1 Cor. 14:20-22, quoted Isaiah 28:11-13). Each time tongues were spoken in Acts (Acts 2, 8, 10, 19) Jews were present. As the prophet Isaiah foretold, the Jews rejected the sign and were judged. Its purpose ceased even before the events recorded in the book of Acts were completed. The last mention of tongues is in Acts 19. The sign, having been fulfilled, ceased.

When John Chrysostom wrote in the 4th century about the sign gifts of 1 Corinthians 12-14, he said: “This whole place is very obscure: but the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to, and BY THEIR CESSATION, being such as then used to occur but now no longer take place†(“Homilies on 1 Corinthians,†Vol. XII, The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Hom. 29:2). There is no “private prayer language†in the New Testament. It is the recent invention of Pentecostals and Charismatics who, having realized that they cannot speak in real tongues that can be interpreted (one of the absolute biblical requirements), were forced either to renounce their experience or to create some sort of cockeyed defense for it. There is not one example of a prayer in the Bible that is uttered in unintelligible mutterings that “bypass the intellect.†Jesus Christ did not pray that way and neither did the apostles. I have heard Charismatics speak in their “private prayer language†in churches and conferences in many parts of the world. Larry Lea’s “private prayer language†at Indianapolis ’90 went something like this: “Bubblyida bubblyida hallelujah bubblyida hallabubbly shallabubblyida kolabubblyida glooooory hallelujah bubblyida.†I wrote that down as he was saying it and later checked it against the tape. Nancy Kellar, a Roman Catholic nun who was on the executive committee of St. Louis 2000, spoke in “tongues†that went like this: “Shananaa leea, shananaa higha, shananaa nanaa, shananaa leea…†repeated over and over.

Friends, this is not any sort of biblical prayer; it is childish nonsense, but it is neither innocent nor lacking in spiritual danger. The Bible warns repeatedly and forcefully about the danger of spiritual deception, and those who empty their minds through the practice of a “private prayer language†are in danger of the devil filling them.

The Southern Baptist Convention would do well to cleanse itself of all charismatic practices, but this does not appear to be in the cards. How ridiculous is it to forbid missionaries to do something that the head of their agency does!
 
jmespinosa said:
I believe yes the gifts of the HS including praying in tongues is very very real. I don't control it and let God and the HS. It saddens me to see people abuse the gifts. From what I have studied in the bible it is denying the power of the HS which in a sense could be blasphemy. Our pastors have done an excellent way with scriptures of why the praying in tongues is so so important. It's a free gift. There are things God has shown me because I do pray that way. If you let God guide you instead of looking into theology than your eyes will be opened. We allow God to guide us and know that what me and my husband have in our lives is because of the tapping into heaven daily with our prayer.

:clap I agree!
 
Not trying to be divisive, I just want to point out some errors in thinking so that people don't get so caught up in extremes:

"Jesus Christ did not pray that way and neither did the apostles."

We do not know whether or not Jesus or the apostles prayed that way; the Bible doesn't say.


"this is not any sort of biblical prayer; it is childish nonsense,"

Just because something may not be mentioned in Scripture does not mean that it isn't biblical and is "childish nonsense."


"The Bible warns repeatedly and forcefully about the danger of spiritual deception, and those who empty their minds through the practice of a “private prayer language†are in danger of the devil filling them."

First it is said that such prayer is not biblical. Then, it is said that "those who empty their minds through the practice of a “private prayer language†are in danger of the devil filling them." Yet that very last argument cannot be support by the Bible either.
 
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