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The Church & Caesar

L

lifeszero

Guest
Doesn't it say pay to Caesar what is Caesars, and God's what is God's.

(Isn't Caesar the tax man)

Yeah, I think he is.

(Then why doesn't the church pay their taxes)

I guess because the tax man doesn't read the bible.
 
Over here in the UK churches and other organisations can register as charities. When they do most of the income generated is exempt from tax as long as the income is used for charitable purposes. Charities will have to undergo scrutiny whether it is an independent examination by an independent examiner whole files a report (I do this for a church I don't go to) or an external audit. These reports are then filed with th Charities Commission.

There is a bit more behind your opening quote. Here are my thoughts, it's a bit long so not sure if it will be posted.

Mark 12:13-17

13 Later they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Jesus to catch him in his words. 14 They came to him and said, “Teacher, we know that you are a man of integrity. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are; but you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it right to pay the imperial tax to Caesar or not? 15 Should we pay or shouldn’t we?” But Jesus knew their hypocrisy. “Why are you trying to trap me?” he asked. “Bring me a denarius and let me look at it.” 16 They brought the coin, and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?” “Caesar’s,” they replied. 17 Then Jesus said to them, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.”

The Pharisees wanted to do more than trap Jesus. They wanted to see him killed for his response concerning the parable of the Evil Tennant Farmers in V 1-12 preceding the above but they were cowards and didn’t go. So they sent “their disciples” and the Herodians.The Pharisees despised the Herodians because they supported Rome, but would cooperate with them whenever it suited them.

The Herodians held political power and they supported the Herods, and therefore, indirectly, Rome. So, the two groups hated each other because to the Pharisees the Herodians compromised the Jewish nation and to the Herodians the Pharisee's were heretical......but, the two groups were united in their hatred of Jesus. The Romans wouldn’t believe the Pharisee's accusation of Jesus, because the Romans knew the Pharisees hated them. They needed pro-Roman witnesses to testify that Jesus was an insurrectionist. The Herodians were more than happy to go along.

Emperor Tiberius was reigning at the time of Christ. He was a pedophile, a sexual deviant, a murderer, and he enslaved millions of people. Tiberius claimed to be the worshipful son of a god.

He was despised by the Jews because he claimed to be a god. His portrait was on a coin which would probably have been a Denaruis.

The coin was the Tiberian Denarius

A denarius was roughly a day’s wages for a common labourer. The front of the coin depicts Tiberius crowned with the laurels of victory and divinity. Above is an abbreviation, “TI CAESAR DIVI AUG F AUGUSTUS,” which translates to, “Tiberius Caesar, Worshipful Son of the God, Augustus.” On the other side sits the Roman goddess of peace, Pax, and around her is the abbreviation, “Pontif Maxim” which means, “High Priest.

This coin was hated by the Jews as the very first commandment forbids the worship of anyone or anything but God, which included the crafting of any image of a false god, such as that on the coin.

I think there is a reason why Jesus asked for the coin. This episode took place in the Temple. Jesus asked for a coin because by producing it, the Pharisee’s disciples and Herodians revealed their own religious hypocrisy. If they had a coin then they bought into the sacred space of the Temple.

The trap.

If Jesus would have said "yes"then he would be seen to be supporting Rome and therefore turn the Jews against him.

If Jesus says "no" then he would have been considered and enemy of Rome and would have been killed for saying so.

In either case, he would have likely been killed but Jesus immediately recognises the trap, and exposes the hypocrisy of His interrogators.

THE NON-ANSWER

"Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”

Jesus does not answer the question directly. Remember the trap, if he said yes or no then he is bang to rights so instead he answers the question with another one.

"Whose image is stamped on the coin? To which they replied "Caesar's"

Using their reply we find Jesus saying "Then give to Caesar what's his"

Imagine the Son of God holding this coin, the coin that depicted Tiberius as a god who commanded the allegiance of all under his domain. God in the flesh is holding this coin.

So in effect Jesus is saying "if this coin is his then give it back to him"

Then Jesus says "Give back to God the things that are God's"

Now he has narrowed the focus what belongs to who? What belongs to Caesar give it to him and by the way now I have your focus; give to God what's his.

This sent them packing, with no reply and no charges to bring.

So what is God's?

In the Hebrew tradition, everything rightfully belonged to God.

The Jewish people were to dedicate the first-fruits, that first portion of any harvest and the first-born of any animal, to God. By giving God the first-fruits, the Jewish people acknowledged that all good things came from God and that all things, in turn, belonged to God. God even declares, "Mine is the silver and mine the gold."

So you see everything belongs to God! The heavens, the earth and all that is on the earth.
Our souls belong to God, he created us.

If everything belongs to God what belongs to Caesar? NOTHING
So Jesus is saying "If you believe in God then everything is his then nothing belongs to Caesar, if you don't believe in God then give him the coin that bears his image"

Jesus is in effect challenging the Jews as to where there allegiance lies, is it with God or Rome"

So as believers what is ours and what is God's? Everything we have is God's

The money I have is God's, the car I have is God's, the house I live in is God's, and the list could go on.

Everything we have been given is God's, what he has given us lets be thankful, acknowledge that it's from him and when we have the opportunity use what we have to show God's love to people by blessing them.

The Greek word translated “render” is ‘apodidomi’ which means “to give back.”.

“Jesus looked at the coin and said, “Sure, that looks like his image. He think's it’s his. Go ahead, give him back what you think is his coin! But, by the way, actually everything belongs to God!”
 
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Doesn't it say pay to Caesar what is Caesars, and God's what is God's.

(Isn't Caesar the tax man)

Yeah, I think he is.

(Then why doesn't the church pay their taxes)

I guess because the tax man doesn't read the bible.
Read Romans 13 about Government.
 
Over here in the UK churches and other organisations can register as charities. When they do most of the income generated is exempt from tax as long as the income is used for charitable purposes. Charities will have to undergo scrutiny whether it is an independent examination by an independent examiner whole files a report (I do this for a church I don't go to) or an external audit. These reports are then filed with th Charities Commission.

There is a bit more behind your opening quote. Here are my thoughts, it's a bit long so not sure if it will be posted.

Mark 12:13-17

13 Later they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Jesus to catch him in his words. 14 They came to him and said, “Teacher, we know that you are a man of integrity. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are; but you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it right to pay the imperial tax to Caesar or not? 15 Should we pay or shouldn’t we?” But Jesus knew their hypocrisy. “Why are you trying to trap me?” he asked. “Bring me a denarius and let me look at it.” 16 They brought the coin, and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?” “Caesar’s,” they replied. 17 Then Jesus said to them, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.”

The Pharisees wanted to do more than trap Jesus. They wanted to see him killed for his response concerning the parable of the Evil Tennant Farmers in V 1-12 preceding the above but they were cowards and didn’t go. So they sent “their disciples” and the Herodians.The Pharisees despised the Herodians because they supported Rome, but would cooperate with them whenever it suited them.

The Herodians held political power and they supported the Herods, and therefore, indirectly, Rome. So, the two groups hated each other because to the Pharisees the Herodians compromised the Jewish nation and to the Herodians the Pharisee's were heretical......but, the two groups were united in their hatred of Jesus. The Romans wouldn’t believe the Pharisee's accusation of Jesus, because the Romans knew the Pharisees hated them. They needed pro-Roman witnesses to testify that Jesus was an insurrectionist. The Herodians were more than happy to go along.

Emperor Tiberius was reigning at the time of Christ. He was a pedophile, a sexual deviant, a murderer, and he enslaved millions of people. Tiberius claimed to be the worshipful son of a god.

He was despised by the Jews because he claimed to be a god. His portrait was on a coin which would probably have been a Denaruis.

The coin was the Tiberian Denarius

A denarius was roughly a day’s wages for a common labourer. The front of the coin depicts Tiberius crowned with the laurels of victory and divinity. Above is an abbreviation, “TI CAESAR DIVI AUG F AUGUSTUS,” which translates to, “Tiberius Caesar, Worshipful Son of the God, Augustus.” On the other side sits the Roman goddess of peace, Pax, and around her is the abbreviation, “Pontif Maxim” which means, “High Priest.

This coin was hated by the Jews as the very first commandment forbids the worship of anyone or anything but God, which included the crafting of any image of a false god, such as that on the coin.

I think there is a reason why Jesus asked for the coin. This episode took place in the Temple. Jesus asked for a coin because by producing it, the Pharisee’s disciples and Herodians revealed their own religious hypocrisy. If they had a coin then they bought into the sacred space of the Temple.

The trap.

If Jesus would have said "yes"then he would be seen to be supporting Rome and therefore turn the Jews against him.

If Jesus says "no" then he would have been considered and enemy of Rome and would have been killed for saying so.

In either case, he would have likely been killed but Jesus immediately recognises the trap, and exposes the hypocrisy of His interrogators.

THE NON-ANSWER

"Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”

Jesus does not answer the question directly. Remember the trap, if he said yes or no then he is bang to rights so instead he answers the question with another one.

"Whose image is stamped on the coin? To which they replied "Caesar's"

Using their reply we find Jesus saying "Then give to Caesar what's his"

Imagine the Son of God holding this coin, the coin that depicted Tiberius as a god who commanded the allegiance of all under his domain. God in the flesh is holding this coin.

So in effect Jesus is saying "if this coin is his then give it back to him"

Then Jesus says "Give back to God the things that are God's"

Now he has narrowed the focus what belongs to who? What belongs to Caesar give it to him and by the way now I have your focus; give to God what's his.

This sent them packing, with no reply and no charges to bring.

So what is God's?

In the Hebrew tradition, everything rightfully belonged to God.

The Jewish people were to dedicate the first-fruits, that first portion of any harvest and the first-born of any animal, to God. By giving God the first-fruits, the Jewish people acknowledged that all good things came from God and that all things, in turn, belonged to God. God even declares, "Mine is the silver and mine the gold."

So you see everything belongs to God! The heavens, the earth and all that is on the earth.
Our souls belong to God, he created us.

If everything belongs to God what belongs to Caesar? NOTHING
So Jesus is saying "If you believe in God then everything is his then nothing belongs to Caesar, if you don't believe in God then give him the coin that bears his image"

Jesus is in effect challenging the Jews as to where there allegiance lies, is it with God or Rome"

So as believers what is ours and what is God's? Everything we have is God's

The money I have is God's, the car I have is God's, the house I live in is God's, and the list could go on.

Everything we have been given is God's, what he has given us lets be thankful, acknowledge that it's from him and when we have the opportunity use what we have to show God's love to people by blessing them.

The Greek word translated “render” is ‘apodidomi’ which means “to give back.”.

“Jesus looked at the coin and said, “Sure, that looks like his image. He think's it’s his. Go ahead, give him back what you think is his coin! But, by the way, actually everything belongs to God!”
(I guess we'll have to let God sort it out)
 
Always read the whole chapter so you will not be deceived by sound bite scriptures. Also just reading the Word of God brings new life because the Word (Jesus) is alive.
Just like your words?
 
Doesn't it say pay to Caesar what is Caesars, and God's what is God's.

(Isn't Caesar the tax man)

Yeah, I think he is.

(Then why doesn't the church pay their taxes)

I guess because the tax man doesn't read the bible.
I may not have the full answer but I believe our nation was started by Christians and they made the decision unlike rome did in the day Of Jesus.
 
Then why doesn't the church pay their taxes
Same reason that that other organizations don't pay their taxes - the LAW states that they do not OWE any taxes.
Why would we tax an organizations whose sole purpose is to do good in the world? No matter if it is the local Baptist church or the local charitable food bank - we don't tax them.

And by extension, we allow you to give your money to such organizations and the amount you give them is not taxed as income.
 
Same reason that that other organizations don't pay their taxes - the LAW states that they do not OWE any taxes.
Why would we tax an organizations whose sole purpose is to do good in the world? No matter if it is the local Baptist church or the local charitable food bank - we don't tax them.

And by extension, we allow you to give your money to such organizations and the amount you give them is not taxed as income.
Yes let's vote in another tax so that some can waste it.
 
Same reason that that other organizations don't pay their taxes - the LAW states that they do not OWE any taxes.
Why would we tax an organizations whose sole purpose is to do good in the world? No matter if it is the local Baptist church or the local charitable food bank - we don't tax them.

And by extension, we allow you to give your money to such organizations and the amount you give them is not taxed as income.
What do they do with the money.
 
Yeah that make's you angry when you think about it.
Donations are tax deductible. I have saved by donation. Prior to the irs the state nor federal government levied the church then.they levied when needed I believe by sales taxes.
 
Believe it or not but ALL humanitarian work done in the Westernized world was done by churches.

This includes child protective services and all welfare.

The churches often doubled as court houses and town halls for officiating town business.

As the towns grew in size and tax percentages remembrance of how the towns took shape was given to the churches that aided the Government. Some churches are still used as voting places.

The Federal government gave them a chapter of the tax code to file under. 501-C,3 as most still do a large amount of humanitarian assistance.

I understand how its often seen as the meeting place of the worst hipocrytes meet...but that's not true.

There's usually a fair number of good souls that meet there.... In and amongst the wolves.


There is coming a day soon when the tax free status of these organizations will end...thanks in part to the likes of some of the biggest names/problems of Christiandom.
And when that happens run!
To where? Dunno... I'm not sure where will be safe.
 
I cant speak for all churches, so let me answer for mine. Our budget varies year to year, but this is close:

Almost 30% of our income goes to pay the few staff we have and to provide them with insurance, etc.
Less than 15% goes to utilities (electric, heat, water, sewer - that sort of thing).
10% right off the top goes to the local Methodist food bank/homeless assistance thing - I cna't think of the name of it.

The rest varies a lot year to year, these numbers are close but like I said, it changes all the time:

5-10% goes to the North Georgia kids home for kids in crisis (homeless, parents in jail, parents missing, etc.)
Up to 10% goes to a non-denominational group in Georgia that assists "Mothers in Crisis"
5-10% goes (thru various channels) to establishing of missions/churches/assistance programs thru out the USA and the world.

The rest goes to building maintenance, equipment purchase (like sound system stuff, kitchen upgrades, a new van/bus every ten years or so, roof repairs, new A/C units - it's always something.
 
I'm not sure what that means.
in the op you asked (Then why doesn't the church pay their taxes)
i answered for this country we were started as a Christian country those leadeds and framers on this country decided inAmerica churches would not pay tax.
 
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