The 'church' in Revelations?

[JM]

After looking at the Greek text/English side by side tranlsation, I had a few questions.

Can we view Rev. 1:4 as Christian Churches in general or the Churches in Asia only?

Is the 'Lord's Day' the Sabbath or Sunday? v.10 ('trumpet' connected with war & the Day of the Lord?)

Is it the Jewish nation only (Rev. 2:1) that are overcomers in Ephesus?

v. 2, deals with 'works' Isa. 66:18 and not faith?

v. 5 The word repent contrasts Lev. 26:40-42, Deut. 30:1-3, Dan. 9:3,4; Matt. 4:17, Acts 2:38 with Eph. 1:3.

Rev. 3:2 mentions works.
v. 17 'wretched' see Rom. 7:24
v.18 what does this 'buying' have to do with the members of the body of Christ?

v.19 rebuke or convict


Is the Church, the Body of Christ/Born again believers/New Creations even in the Book of Revelations, or is this when the Jews are being delt with by God?

Peace

 

[Darrell dunn]

The word church = called out By Christ.

There is no unsaved in the body otherwise Christ would be unequally yoked.

The church started with Jews and will finish with Jews. The 144,000 will be the preachers of the end of the church.

They are saved by the preaching of the foolish virgins left behind, Matt.25:1-13

Buying Gold from him, means putting away our treasure in heaven.

The overcomers in all of the churches are them that hear Gods voice and come out of the bad teaching of each of the churches.

The letters represent a 3 fold meaning,

1. They are all in operation today,and were at the time John wrote to them.

2.They represent our relation ship with God,( with Gods help you can find yourself in there)

3.They also represent the stages that the church has gone through.

Going through the letters, you may note, at first, they take their eyes off of Jesus, then the false teaching starts on the outside edge at first, then it gets worse, now the teaching is from the pulpit, then there is a revival, then they fall away faster. I believe the revival was around 1900



We are now in the church of laodicean. (OVERALL PICTURE OF THE CHURCH)

The 10 virgins are all asleep.Matt.25;1-11

 

[PHIL121]

Some interesting questions by BO...

Can we view Rev. 1:4 as Christian Churches in general or the Churches in Asia only?

I'd say Rev 1:4 is just a standard gretin to the Churchs John was addressing. We see the same type of greetings in the Epistles, and apply those to the entire Church.

Is the 'Lord's Day' the Sabbath or Sunday? v.10 ('trumpet' connected with war & the Day of the Lord?)

I don't really see any significence on whether it was Sunday or Saturday. Maybe it was Pentecost?

Is it the Jewish nation only (Rev. 2:1) that are overcomers in Ephesus?

No, since Christians are grafted into the the Olive Tree, the reference to the lampstand alos applies to us.

v. 2, deals with 'works' Isa. 66:18 and not faith?

Yes, so? The letter to Ephesus commends them for their works, and suggests that they should repent for their lack of faith.

v. 5 The word repent contrasts Lev. 26:40-42, Deut. 30:1-3, Dan. 9:3,4; Matt. 4:17, Acts 2:38 with Eph. 1:3.

Rev. 3:2 mentions works.
v. 17 'wretched' see Rom. 7:24
v.18 what does this 'buying' have to do with the members of the body of Christ?

v.19 rebuke or convict

I don't see where you are going with this. It's pretty clear that theSeven Letters expose the sin of the five of the Seven and call on them to repent. In a broader sense, they expose the sin of present in many Churchs, as well, in my opinion, as expose the sins of the Church throughout the Church Age.

Is the Church, the Body of Christ/Born again believers/New Creations even in the Book of Revelations, or is this when the Jews are being delt with by God?

Since all Seven Churchs were Christian, I think that answer is rather obvious.

 

[JM]

I wasn't going anywhere with this post, just posting random thoughts after I heard a few people say the rapture happens before the book of Revelations takes place.

 

[PHIL121]

Hmmm...well even the pre-tribbers believe the Rapture takes place at the Beginning of Revelations, not before it.

But then again considering there are ignorant people how refuse to admit DNA is made up of amino acids, I guess I shouldn't be suprised.

 

[Vic C.]

Hmmm...well even the pre-tribbers believe the Rapture takes place at the Beginning of Revelations, not before it.

But then again considering there are ignorant people how refuse to admit DNA is made up of amino acids, I guess I shouldn't be suprised.

LOL, what is all this talk about DNA and amino acids? I've seen it in a few posts of yours. :-?

 

[stray bullet]

But then again considering there are ignorant people how refuse to admit DNA is made up of amino acids, I guess I shouldn't be suprised.

DNA is not made up of amino acids.

DNA is made up of nucleic acids, deoxygenated ribose and phosphate.

Amino acids make up proteins.

 

[Geo]

Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die:
for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Rev. 3:2

this is from a book I'm just reading, download link somewhere here in
one these end time threads:

Salvation is by grace, but rewards are according to works!

Even the formal Sardis churches that are evangelistic neglect the
very important function of discipling its members and teaching the deeper
truths of Scripture. This is why so many Christians with shallow roots will
fall away and become unfaithful as soon as persecution appears, financial
disaster hits, or material prosperity happens. Numerous Christians attend
church, witness, and perform works for a period of months, years, etc.
and then become disinterested and fall away from the faith as soon as they
slack off in their church attendance.

The faithful Christian who studies the Word of God and lives according to
its precepts is like the marathon runner who finishes the race with respect
to the faith. The racetrack of the narrow way is strewn with Christians who
have sprinted for a time and then dropped out before the course is finished.
Rewards will be awarded to only those Christians who finish the race.

 

[Darrell dunn]

The word church = called out By Christ.

There is no unsaved in the body otherwise Christ would be unequally yoked.

The church started with Jews and will finish with Jews. The 144,000 will be the preachers of the end of the church.

They are saved by the preaching of the foolish virgins left behind, Matt.25:1-13

Buying Gold from him, means putting away our treasure in heaven.

The overcomers in all of the churches are them that hear Gods voice and come out of the bad teaching of each of the churches.

The letters represent a 3 fold meaning,

1. They are all in operation today,and were at the time John wrote to them.

2.They represent our relation ship with God,( with Gods help you can find yourself in there)

3.They also represent the stages that the church has gone through.

Going through the letters, you may note, at first, they take their eyes off of Jesus, then the false teaching starts on the outside edge at first, then it gets worse, now the teaching is from the pulpit, then there is a revival, then they fall away faster. I believe the revival was around 1900



We are now in the church of laodicean. (OVERALL PICTURE OF THE CHURCH)

The 10 virgins are all asleep.Matt.25;1-11

 

[Orthodox Christian]

After looking at the Greek text/English side by side tranlsation, I had a few questions.

Can we view Rev. 1:4 as Christian Churches in general or the Churches in Asia only?
Depends on how much you wish to allegorize the text. It is a matter of historical fact that John was located in Ephesus for many years, and much of his ministry was in Asia Minor. In addition, the letters are addressing specific issues in specific regions.
Is the 'Lord's Day' the Sabbath or Sunday? v.10 ('trumpet' connected with war & the Day of the Lord?)
Kuriaki Himera is distinct in scripture and in patristics from sabbaton. Ergo, Lord's Day refers to what people in the West call Sunday.

Is it the Jewish nation only (Rev. 2:1) that are overcomers in Ephesus?
The congregation at Ephesus was Hellenized Jews and Gentile believers- I leave you to draw your own conclusions.

v. 2, deals with 'works' Isa. 66:18 and not faith?
The theme of having works tried and judged is consistent throughout the NT, including James and Paul's letters

v. 5 The word repent contrasts Lev. 26:40-42, Deut. 30:1-3, Dan. 9:3,4; Matt. 4:17, Acts 2:38 with Eph. 1:3.
There is a consistency between the Greek term for repent (metanoison) and Hebrew thought on the matter of repentance. There is three aspects to the act of repenting:
1. rethink
2. turn
3.return

So repentance involves action and change of mind, not just pietistic surrender.

And there's not any difference of substance between the basic description of repentance in the Pentateuch and in Jesus' words to the churches. Always comes the call to repentance by way of reminding the people how they were blessed, and how they've blown it, and to whom they should return to..

Rev. 3:2 mentions works.
v. 17 'wretched' see Rom. 7:24
v.18 what does this 'buying' have to do with the members of the body of Christ?
Buying is a figure of speech, referring back to what Christ had told us in the gospels, which was to lay up our treasures in heaven. This again is a figure of speech, meaning to invest oneself in all manners in things pertaining to the etrnal. Then one will be rich in the next life AND in this one- whether one has a dime to their name.

v.19 rebuke or convict
Whatever is necessary.


Is the Church, the Body of Christ/Born again believers/New Creations even in the Book of Revelations, or is this when the Jews are being delt with by God?
The apokalypsis is a revelation of heaven, an uncovering of the heavenly light behind the earthly darkness. Those who read this as allegorical and future-predictive only ignore the obvious indications to the contrary.

It's not like this was the only apocalyptic writing ever given the Church- there were scores and scores of this type of literature that found acceptance within Christian communities. Such literature pre-dated Christianity, with the most famous example- Enoch- finding acceptance and prominence to such a degree it's quoted in the NT.

This was the last book to be accepted as canon, it was very controversial. Reason being that there was a concern that believers would try to interpret its rich symbolism in such a way as to sootsay the future. Ultimately, the message contained within (persevere to the end) and the revelatory images of heaven, coupled with the weight of its authorship convinced the fathers at Carthage and after to include it in canon.



Peace

ereni pasi

 

[JM]

Thx OC, would you mind starting a thread that deals with the Orthodox view of end times? I'd be interested in reading what you have to say, do you agree with the Russians, they're the "3rd Rome?" What do you think of "Ultimate Things: An Orthodox view of the end times?"

 

[Vic C.]

Thx OC, would you mind starting a thread that deals with the Orthodox view of end times? I'd be interested in reading what you have to say, do you agree with the Russians, they're the "3rd Rome?" What do you think of "Ultimate Things: An Orthodox view of the end times?"

I'd like that very much too. I've been asking James to come on over to this neck of the woods. :

 

[JM]

Vic, have you read Ulitmate things?

I read it when I was attending an EO church.

 

[Vic C.]

Vic, have you read Ulitmate things?

I read it when I was attending an EO church.

No I haven't. Never studied or even considered eschatology from an Orthodox point of view.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Thx OC, would you mind starting a thread that deals with the Orthodox view of end times? I'd be interested in reading what you have to say, do you agree with the Russians, they're the "3rd Rome?" What do you think of "Ultimate Things: An Orthodox view of the end times?"

Haven't read the book of which you speak. I am familiar with Engleman's excellent arguments I'm not sure if I'm the guy to hold forth on eschatos, I'm more of a history/language guy.

Here is an article from the Greek Archdiocese website- it seems pretty vague to Western sensibility, but it's lack of dogmatic expression is in keeping with our sense of mystery regarding last things. We know that He is coming back, as it is written.
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8079.asp

Now, a bit of James' opinion, since you asked:
I think the Russian Orthodox, specifically the ROCOR, with their view unto Russia as the third Rome, is/are out-of-step with the concilliar, episcopal tradition of Orthodoxy. We Orthodox have struggled with the pretensions of Constantinople and Moscow to be the Eastern pontiff. Even today the EP grasps at the levers of power as the flock under his See diminishes.

We parted ways with Rome, to a large extent, over the pretenses to power of the Roman Patriarch. We were blessed to have the leadership of the EP during the dark hours of the Ottoman hegemony. But the Orthodox Church is and always will be concilliar.

I fear that discussions of the "Third Rome" hearkens to a variant of Caesaropapism. The Church has suffered more than She flourished under the supposedly benevolent hands of deeply involved Emperors.

There is much, much more to be said on this matter, but in short I feel that both Moscow and Constantinople are currently at odds, to some degree, with global, historic Orthodox ethos.

 

[JM]

OC, do you feel a connection can be made between neo-Platonism and the East's view of the end times? After the Reformers in West had a good run, it took a while to shake off the neo-Platonism of Augustine (the two Kingdom idea is a direct lift from Plato) and the framework it left. I often here Pastors claim that much of modern theology is post-enlightenment theology which is to say it's mostly concerned with self, I've been reading philosophy the last few weeks to get a better understanding of what they're saying. However, Augustine (and Calvin via Augustine) have done a little borrowing as well, mixing Plato, Plontinus and Aristotelian philosophy (especially on hierarchically ordered and the nature of the soul tri/dichonomy).

How much of Plato exits in the theology of the Eastern Orthodox Church? Is you end time view related to the 3rd and 4th century views of 'Christendom?'

 

[Orthodox Christian]

OC, do you feel a connection can be made between neo-Platonism and the East's view of the end times?

You've asked a very complex question, not sure I'm up to the task, but that has never stopped me from trying.

If one would characterize our reading of Revelation as crypto-Platonic, then one must view the description of the heavenly Temple and Holy Place in the Hebrews epistle as crypto- or neo-Platonic also...inasmuch as the form is compared to the copy. Some call this 'type and shadow.' Ditto for Paul's statement in 1 Cor 13 "For we see now as through a glass, darkly." (Shadows on a cave wall, anyone?)

But is our eschatology neo-Platonic?
Not if, by neo-Platonic, you are referring to Plotinus. In his philosophy, there is essentially no end time redemption as Christians have envisioned/described. (Orthodox included)
Perhaps you are asking if, given our amillenialist views, we share in the hope for the future restoration and salvation of God's creatures. Assuredly, we do.

After the Reformers in West had a good run, it took a while to shake off the neo-Platonism of Augustine (the two Kingdom idea is a direct lift from Plato) and the framework it left. I often here Pastors claim that much of modern theology is post-enlightenment theology which is to say it's mostly concerned with self, I've been reading philosophy the last few weeks to get a better understanding of what they're saying. However, Augustine (and Calvin via Augustine) have done a little borrowing as well, mixing Plato, Plontinus and Aristotelian philosophy (especially on hierarchically ordered and the nature of the soul tri/dichonomy).

I think it's important to distinguish between influence and orientation. We are all influenced by many and diverse thoughts and premises, but our orientation is another matter.

The essential difference between Catholics/Orthodox and most Protestants is the existence of the physical Church vs the concept of the invisible Church. If there is no physical Church to be found on earth, then one can only be part of an undefined ekklesia, and in this sense one is alone 'in the flesh' even as he/she is joined in the spiritual synaxis. The relevance of this is that such an orientation will invariably be futuristic, whereas the Orthodox/Catholic view of One Church, part militant, part triumphant has a certain 'nowness' to it that may appear Plotinian. Please remember that we are not either/or, but both and.

How much of Plato exits in the theology of the Eastern Orthodox Church? Is you end time view related to the 3rd and 4th century views of 'Christendom?'

On the contrary, the 3rd and 4th century ideals which found expression specifically in Byzantium were based in no small part in the notion that Church and liturgy were partially realized eschatology, so therefore, could not governance be as well.... Isaiah 9:7 comes to mind.

Plato in the theology of the EO Church is a lengthy and debatable topic- too expansive for our current thread, not to mention too demanding on my current leisure time. :wink:
Js.

 

[JM]

Thank you OC, I did ask too much of you and maybe not the correct questions when dealing with end times.

Do you believe a sacralist view of society has anything to do with Orthodox understanding of the end times? I've notice much of what we disagree on is based on our view of the Church and it's nature...I believe the Church to be an element of society (corpus christi as the Latin's say) and that's it for me. I've noticed (and correct me if I'm wrong : ) the RC's and EO's have a Christian society in view (corpus christianum), am I on the right track? ex. "Heresy shall be construed to be an offence against the civil order." Codes of Justinian, XVI, 5:40

I don't know where exactly I'm going with this, it seems the traditional Churches view the millenium and other end time events in light of it's view of the sacral nature of the Church in society.

Peace

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Thank you OC, I did ask too much of you and maybe not the correct questions when dealing with end times.

Do you believe a sacralist view of society has anything to do with Orthodox understanding of the end times? I've notice much of what we disagree on is based on our view of the Church and it's nature...I believe the Church to be an element of society (corpus christi as the Latin's say) and that's it for me. I've noticed (and correct me if I'm wrong : ) the RC's and EO's have a Christian society in view (corpus christianum), am I on the right track? ex. "Heresy shall be construed to be an offence against the civil order." Codes of Justinian, XVI, 5:40

I don't know where exactly I'm going with this, it seems the traditional Churches view the millenium and other end time events in light of it's view of the sacral nature of the Church in society.

Peace

Actually, Jason, I don't think we disagree at all regarding sacralism- I utterly reject it. Our view of the Church is of a physical reality and presence- parousia- of Christ through the Church in the world- not of a shared heavenly and worldly kingdom.

The 'city on a hill' then is not a city in political terms, but in relational terms.

Both East and West have been seduced by the other premise enough already, I think, would you not agree?

Both Ancient Apostolic Christianity and Reformed Christianity have had their proponents of sacralism- not the least of whom were Calvin, and as you mentioned, Justinian.

The best question to ask in this regard is twofold:
1. Is Eastern Orthodoxy today sacralistic, and if not,
2. has this effected their (our) eschatology?

1. While there are strongly sacralistic elements that remain in Russian Orthodoxy, I believe that the contemporary consensus- especially in the Americas- is that a pluralistic society actually benefits the Christian enterprise generally, and Orthodoxy in particular.

2. This has only deepened our commitment to Theosis, which is the inbreaking of the kingdom of heaven in this world. Theosis has everything to do with our individual relationship with Christ and the need to be transformed, so as to BE a light.

I think where we disagree is in terms of authority and synaxis within the visible church.
Regards
James

 

[Darrell dunn]

I do not understand the confusion,

If we understand Gods plan from the beginning to the end, is to have the few people that claim to know Him tell all the rest of the world about Him.

That has been Gods plan from the beginning, it has not changed.

God wanted the Jews to show the world how great God is but they became corrupted and drifted away from God. so God took a few of the jews and started a movement called the church, but doing the same plan. tell the rest of the world about Him.

And the only change God makes is the group that is carrying the message so the 144,000 Jews will be part of the church finishing the plan of GOD.

TELLING THE REST OF THE WORLD ABOUT GOD!!!!!!!!!!

When God wrote the bible He was not predicting our future, He was looking back at it from the future and tell us what we did, not what we have to do.

You should really get to know God!!!!!!