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[__ Science __ ] The Fall and the Problem of Millions of Years of Natural Evil

Barbarian

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There is no "natural evil." By definition, evil is a rebellion against God.

Fallen mankind saw death in God's creation as an evil. But a Christian does not see death that way. Or shouldn't. And of course, the Bible doesn't teach that it's the result of the fall.
 

Barbarian

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Barbarian, regarding physical death:
And of course, the Bible doesn't teach that it's the result of the fall.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
Is what the bible teaches.
Adam sinned and as a result we all die.

A spiritual death,not a physical one. God tells Adam that he will die the day he eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam eats, but lives on physically for many years thereafter. If God tells the truth, the death that Adam brought into the world, is not a physical death.
 

Who Me

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Barbarian, regarding physical death:
And of course, the Bible doesn't teach that it's the result of the fall.



A spiritual death,not a physical one. God tells Adam that he will die the day he eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam eats, but lives on physically for many years thereafter. If God tells the truth, the death that Adam brought into the world, is not a physical death.

Paul in romans is not talking about spiritual death but about physical death.

As you know Theology teaches that Adam 'died' spiritual when he sinned, as shown by his fear at the sound of God walking in the garden, but that he also started to physically die from that moment untill his body could no longer do the processes that kept him alive.
 

Barbarian

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Paul in romans is not talking about spiritual death but about physical death.
It doesn't seem like it. He's talking about how Adam brought spiritual death into the world.

As you know Theology teaches that Adam 'died' spiritual when he sinned, as shown by his fear at the sound of God walking in the garden, but that he also started to physically die from that moment untill his body could no longer do the processes that kept him alive.
That addition to scripture is not supported by the text, nor is it orthodox Christian theology. God said that the death would happen the day Adam ate from the tree. So if we can trust God, it was not a physical death.
 

jaybo

 
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Barbarian, regarding physical death:
And of course, the Bible doesn't teach that it's the result of the fall.



A spiritual death,not a physical one. God tells Adam that he will die the day he eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam eats, but lives on physically for many years thereafter. If God tells the truth, the death that Adam brought into the world, is not a physical death.
Sorry, but Adam died. Perhaps not immediately, but he died a real, physical death. That is the reason that all people die a physical death.
 

Barbarian

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Sorry, but Adam died.

He did. He died that day. Just not physically. He lived on physically for many years thereafter. The death that God said would happen to him that day was a spiritual death, not a physical one.
 

Barbarian

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Paul in romans is not talking about spiritual death but about physical death.

God, speaking to Adam, is talking about a spiritual death, not a physical one. God told Adam he would die the day he ate from that tree. And he did. Just not physically. If God tells the truth, the death was spiritual, not physical.
 

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God, speaking to Adam, is talking about a spiritual death, not a physical one. God told Adam he would die the day he ate from that tree. And he did. Just not physically. If God tells the truth, the death was spiritual, not physical.

Yes he died Spiritual, ne also began to die physically, just as you and I are dying physically.
Our body cells donot endlesly renew themselves, thereis a stop on the dna that when reached that cell dies and is not replaced ( something cancer cells lack. )

Again Paul in Romans tells us that death came through Adam.
 

Barbarian

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Yes he died Spiritual, ne also began to die physically, just as you and I are dying physically.
That's not what God said. He said Adam would die the day he ate from the tree. Adam didn't die physically; he died spiritually. Since God is truthful, we know that the death God spoke of, was not a physical one.

Again Paul in Romans tells us that death came through Adam.
Yes, a spiritual death, as God tells us in Genesis.
 

jaybo

 
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That's not what God said. He said Adam would die the day he ate from the tree. Adam didn't die physically; he died spiritually. Since God is truthful, we know that the death God spoke of, was not a physical one.


Yes, a spiritual death, as God tells us in Genesis.

Genesis 2:17 (NET 2.1), "... but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will surely die.”

Here is the translator's note about Genesis 2:17: Or “in the very day, as soon as.” If one understands the expression to have this more precise meaning, then the following narrative presents a problem, for the man does not die physically as soon as he eats from the tree. In this case one may argue that spiritual death is in view. If physical death is in view here, there are two options to explain the following narrative: (1) The following phrase “You will surely die” concerns mortality which ultimately results in death (a natural paraphrase would be, “You will become mortal”), or (2) God mercifully gave man a reprieve, allowing him to live longer than he deserved.
 

Barbarian

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Here is the translator's note about Genesis 2:17: Or “in the very day, as soon as.” If one understands the expression to have this more precise meaning, then the following narrative presents a problem, for the man does not die physically as soon as he eats from the tree. In this case one may argue that spiritual death is in view. If physical death is in view here, there are two options to explain the following narrative: (1) The following phrase “You will surely die” concerns mortality which ultimately results in death (a natural paraphrase would be, “You will become mortal”), or (2) God mercifully gave man a reprieve, allowing him to live longer than he deserved.
Well, let's see what God says...

KJV
Genesis 2:17 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Douay
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.

American Standard Version
Genesis 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Latin Vulgate
Genesis 2:17 de ligno autem scientiæ boni et mali ne comedas: in quocumque enim die comederis ex eo, morte morieris.
(Genesis 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat: for in whatever day you eat of it, you shall surely die.)

It says that in Greek koine versions as well.

I get that if one makes a modern translation that removes the clause about dying the day one eats from the tree, it solves a problem for those who are unhappy with it. But it really doesn't change what God says, does it?

Further, God never said Adam was or would be mortal. In fact, in Genesis 3, He expresses concern that Adam might become so, and takes steps to make sure Adam does not.
 

jaybo

 
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Well, let's see what God says...

KJV
Genesis 2:17 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Douay
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.

American Standard Version
Genesis 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Latin Vulgate
Genesis 2:17 de ligno autem scientiæ boni et mali ne comedas: in quocumque enim die comederis ex eo, morte morieris.
(Genesis 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat: for in whatever day you eat of it, you shall surely die.)

It says that in Greek koine versions as well.

I get that if one makes a modern translation that removes the clause about dying the day one eats from the tree, it solves a problem for those who are unhappy with it. But it really doesn't change what God says, does it?

Further, God never said Adam was or would be mortal. In fact, in Genesis 3, He expresses concern that Adam might become so, and takes steps to make sure Adam does not.
Are you seriously saying that if one uses a modern translation it solves a problem for those who are unhappy with what God says? Really? Then we have nothing more to discuss. You can cling to whatever version you want regardless of its accuracy, but that doesn't change the reality of God's true words.
 

Barbarian

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Are you seriously saying that if one uses a modern translation it solves a problem for those who are unhappy with what God says?
[/QUOTE]
Yes. Since it doesn't matter to their salvation if they add a physical death to their understanding, it's no longer a problem for them. We should be careful not to add new requirements for salvation.
You can cling to whatever version you want regardless of its accuracy, but that doesn't change the reality of God's true words.
Right. But the important thing is that you can be wrong about some things like that, and still be saved.
 

jaybo

 
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Yes. Since it doesn't matter to their salvation if they add a physical death to their understanding, it's no longer a problem for them. We should be careful not to add new requirements for salvation.

Right. But the important thing is that you can be wrong about some things like that, and still be saved.
[/QUOTE]

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

How does using a different translation add a physical death to their understanding?

Also, you wrote "Right. But the important thing is that you can be wrong about some things like that, and still be "saved." in response to this...
You can cling to whatever version you want regardless of its accuracy, but that doesn't change the reality of God's true words.

I don't understand that either.
 

choir loft

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Can the evolutionist view of the history of natural evil be harmonized with the Bible’s apparent teaching that all of this evil is the consequence of the Fall?

Continue reading...

Darwin's theory of evolution is contested by almost everyone who knows anything about it, including those who accept it as an axiom. In actuality, it supports a red hot publishing trade that sucks millions of dollars from the pockets of college students who only want to learn the truth of things.

The Bible IS NOT about ancient theories or scientific discoveries.

Every good book, of which the Bible is one, is consistent with its own theme. <--- remember this statement

The Bible IS ABOUT the Fall and Redemption of man.

That particular story began approximately six thousand years ago and continues to unfold in human history. I'll repeat that statement for you. The Bible is about the Fall and Redemption of man. That's all and that's it.

The Bible is NOT about dinosaurs. If you want a book consistent with that subject go to the library.
The Bible is NOT about tectonic plate shifts. Go to the library to learn geology. Many books are consistent with that subject.
The Bible is NOT a history of ancient civilizations human or otherwise. It's about Israel (Genesis 12:3).
The Bible is NOT about astronomy, pre-historic plant husbandry or even dogs and cats.

The Bible IS ABOUT the Fall and Redemption of man.
The Bible is about the love of God and His plan to save mankind from the SIN it loves so well.
The Bible is about the love of God and His work to save mankind from self-destruction.
The Bible is about a hope for life beyond the grave - the historic destiny of mankind.
The Bible is consistent with its own theme - redemption of fallen man.

No other book comes close, although a few pretend to try.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 
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jaybo

 
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Darwin's theory of evolution is contested by almost everyone who knows anything about it, including those who accept it as an axiom. In actuality, it supports a red hot publishing trade that sucks millions of dollars from the pockets of college students who only want to learn the truth of things.

The Bible IS NOT about ancient theories or scientific discoveries.

Every good book, of which the Bible is one, is consistent with its own theme. <--- remember this statement

The Bible IS ABOUT the Fall and Redemption of man.

That particular story began approximately six thousand years ago and continues to unfold in human history. I'll repeat that statement for you. The Bible is about the Fall and Redemption of man. That's all and that's it.

The Bible is NOT about dinosaurs. If you want a book consistent with that subject go to the library.
The Bible is NOT about tectonic plate shifts. Go to the library to learn geology. Many books are consistent with that subject.
The Bible is NOT about ancient civilizations human or otherwise. It's only about one particular family - Hebrews.
The Bible is NOT about astronomy, pre-historic plant husbandry or even dogs and cats.

The Bible IS ABOUT the Fall and Redemption of man.
The Bible is about the love of God and His plan to save mankind from the SIN it loves so well.
The Bible is about the love of God and His work to save mankind from self-destruction.
The Bible is about a hope for life beyond the grave, which has been the historic destiny of mankind.

The Bible is consistent with its own theme - redemption of fallen man. No other book comes close, although a few pretend to try.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
You wrote, "In actuality, it supports a red hot publishing trade that sucks millions of dollars from the pockets of college students who only want to learn the truth of things." Yeah, better be on guard against those greedy textbook publishers who supply schoolbooks to everyone from kindergarten through graduate school.

Seriously??
 

Barbarian

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Darwin's theory of evolution is contested by almost everyone who knows anything about it, including those who accept it as an axiom.
No, that's wrong. Anyone who accepts it as an "axiom" doesn't even know what it is. But Darwin's four points of evolutionary theory remain solidly demonstrated now as ever. If you doubt this, show us how any one of them is now "contested."

You're right though, in asserting that the Bible is not about science. It's about man and God and our relationship. How to get to salvation, not the details of His creation.
 
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