The False premise of Universalism.

[reddogs]

Many have picked up the idea that all will be saved or continue in eternal life even in the fires of hell. But only the saints will have eternal life, all others will not have eternal life in any form. Now the wrong premise that comes with Universalism, is that the wicked will die is not true because it would then be a limitation in God, it holds that if all are not saved, it limits God and His ability to heal all sin. It really is failure on their part to realize that God cannot create character. God can create sinless beings, but the character must be developed by the freewill choices of the person. While God does possess the power to overwrite the individuality of a person and instill His perfection without their consent, to do so would destroy that person and create a basically a robot, where that person used to be. This action would violate God’s own character of love, which never compels, never coerces, and never forces. Love only exists in an atmosphere of freedom.

So the Universalist idea, that God’s love will one day be so compelling that all will be overwhelmed and become godly, actually presents a God who is not love, but rather a dictator who forces everyone to be like Him. Genuine love, as painful as it is, allows the rejection of love.

The next idea that is problem in Universalism, is that God forgives everyone, so won’t all be saved? The argument is that there is no limit to God’s forgiveness; therefore, all are forgiven and so all will be saved. While it is true that God’s forgiveness is limitless and that He forgives everyone, forgiveness does not equal salvation. For Universalists, if a person is pardoned, he or she is freed from the punishment of the law and since God forgives everyone, then everyone must be saved. But the reality we find is that while you can forgive a person for overdosing on drugs, the forgiveness doesn’t prevent the damage done and the user still dies.

Jesus forgave those who crucified Him, but the evidence shows that many were not changed by that forgiveness and remained haters of God, and full of iniquity. Thus, if God would take them to heaven anyway, it would be a place of torture to them, they would not find God’s infinite love and truth enjoyable, they rather flee from God, begging to have the mountains crush them to hide them from Him.

 

[one2question]

Many have picked up the idea that all will be saved or continue in eternal life even in the fires of hell. But only the saints will have eternal life, all others will not have eternal life in any form. Now the wrong premise that comes with Universalism, is that the wicked will die is not true because it would then be a limitation in God, it holds that if all are not saved, it limits God and His ability to heal all sin. It really is failure on their part to realize that God cannot create character. God can create sinless beings, but the character must be developed by the freewill choices of the person. While God does possess the power to overwrite the individuality of a person and instill His perfection without their consent, to do so would destroy that person and create a basically a robot, where that person used to be. This action would violate God’s own character of love, which never compels, never coerces, and never forces. Love only exists in an atmosphere of freedom.

So the Universalist idea, that God’s love will one day be so compelling that all will be overwhelmed and become godly, actually presents a God who is not love, but rather a dictator who forces everyone to be like Him. Genuine love, as painful as it is, allows the rejection of love.

The next idea that is problem in Universalism, is that God forgives everyone, so won’t all be saved? The argument is that there is no limit to God’s forgiveness; therefore, all are forgiven and so all will be saved. While it is true that God’s forgiveness is limitless and that He forgives everyone, forgiveness does not equal salvation. For Universalists, if a person is pardoned, he or she is freed from the punishment of the law and since God forgives everyone, then everyone must be saved. But the reality we find is that while you can forgive a person for overdosing on drugs, the forgiveness doesn’t prevent the damage done and the user still dies.

Jesus forgave those who crucified Him, but the evidence shows that many were not changed by that forgiveness and remained haters of God, and full of iniquity. Thus, if God would take them to heaven anyway, it would be a place of torture to them, they would not find God’s infinite love and truth enjoyable, they rather flee from God, begging to have the mountains crush them to hide them from Him.

I don't identity as a Universalist or a Calvinist or align with any other group yet I fully believe that God exercises His sovereignty at all times and in everything that comes to pass. I firmly believe that God as the Creator imagined a script that spans eternity and has ensured everything is going according to that storyline.
A few highlights within this fantastic plot:
- God creates angelic beings
- Some go to the dark side
- God creates humans
- Humans sin
- God sends His Son to be the Lamb to reconcile all to Himself.
- God's mercy is manifested when Satan and his followers repent and are forgiven, restored, redeemed, reconciled to God
- God's grace is extended to Satan, evidenced by God offering him a throne on His left, with the Lamb on His right. And there's more, an eternity more!

 

[Vinny37]

I align between Universalism and standard Evangelicalism, and stand in the Wider Hope sector with inexclusivism. I like The Last Battle (C S Lewis), where Aslan shows that he cannot do all that he would wish, such as take in the Dwarfs who would not be taken in, though he gave them such that he could. In The Problem of Pain, Lewis made the strong point that ultimate rebels ultimately defeat God, since to be intrinsically human is to able to defeat omnipotence—but the winners are the losers, self-damned. To be automatons is not to be human, but the sovereign has shared the privilege of true personhood, and will not withdraw it.

 

[Free]

- God's mercy is manifested when Satan and his followers repent and are forgiven, restored, redeemed, reconciled to God
- God's grace is extended to Satan, evidenced by God offering him a throne on His left, with the Lamb on His right. And there's more, an eternity more!

Where are either of those things mentioned in Scripture? All I can find is this:

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (ESV)

Satan and all his followers end up in the lake of fire, forever. I can’t find anything about where they are abet forgiven. I also see where the only thrones in heaven are those of the Father and the Son:

Rev 22:3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. (ESV)

 

[Free]

In The Problem of Pain, Lewis made the strong point that ultimate rebels ultimately defeat God, since to be intrinsically human is to able to defeat omnipotence

Are you sure Lewis made that point? It really doesn’t sound to me like a point he would make.

 

[reddogs]

I don't identity as a Universalist or a Calvinist or align with any other group yet I fully believe that God exercises His sovereignty at all times and in everything that comes to pass. I firmly believe that God as the Creator imagined a script that spans eternity and has ensured everything is going according to that storyline.
A few highlights within this fantastic plot:
- God creates angelic beings
- Some go to the dark side
- God creates humans
- Humans sin
- God sends His Son to be the Lamb to reconcile all to Himself.
- God's mercy is manifested when Satan and his followers repent and are forgiven, restored, redeemed, reconciled to God
- God's grace is extended to Satan, evidenced by God offering him a throne on His left, with the Lamb on His right. And there's more, an eternity more!

How do you read this text as clearly there will be a separation between saints and sinners for a final purpose...
Matthew 25:32-34
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

 

[Vinny37]

Are you sure Lewis made that point? It really doesn’t sound to me like a point he would make.

“Finally, it is objected that the ultimate loss of a single soul means the defeat of omnipotence. And so it does. In creating beings with free will, omnipotence from the outset submits to the possibility of such defeat. What you call defeat, I call miracle; for to make things which are not Itself, and thus to become, in a sense, capable of being resisted by its own handiwork, is the most astonishing and unimaginable of all the feats we attribute to the Deity. I willingly believe that the damned are, in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked on the inside. I do not mean that the ghosts may not wish to come, out of hell, in the vague fashion wherein an envious man ‘wishes’ to be happy: but they certainly do not will even the first preliminary stages of that self-abandonment through which alone the soul can reach any good.” (https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.264598/page/n123/mode/2up 115)

 

[Free]

“Finally, it is objected that the ultimate loss of a single soul means the defeat of omnipotence. And so it does. In creating beings with free will, omnipotence from the outset submits to the possibility of such defeat. What you call defeat, I call miracle; for to make things which are not Itself, and thus to become, in a sense, capable of being resisted by its own handiwork, is the most astonishing and unimaginable of all the feats we attribute to the Deity. I willingly believe that the damned are, in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked on the inside. I do not mean that the ghosts may not wish to come, out of hell, in the vague fashion wherein an envious man ‘wishes’ to be happy: but they certainly do not will even the first preliminary stages of that self-abandonment through which alone the soul can reach any good.” (https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.264598/page/n123/mode/2up 115)

That's interesting. It's been a long time since I read that book. To me, his argument is doing what he said elsewhere (pretty sure in Mere Christianity) was nonsense: basically, God has created a rock too heavy for him to lift, so his omnipotence is not so omnipotent.

If one is Arminian, then it should only be said that God set things up in such a way that people were free to reject him, which is not at all a defeat of omnipotence; he used his omnipotence create the conditions. If one is Reformed, then God used his omnipotence to save those whom he saves.

 

[one2question]

How do you read this text as clearly there will be a separation between saints and sinners for a final purpose...
Matthew 25:32-34
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Yes, Jesus said He will seperate people, some on His left and others on His right. Some will go and inherit His kingdom and reign with Him for 1000 years as kings and priests. Rev. 5:10. Others will miss out on this, like the 5 foolish virgins. But some time later, maybe 10, 100, 1000, 1000000 years later, after those who have missed out on reigning in Jesus millennial kingdom, will repent of their sin and find God's mercy and grace, being reconciled to God so that He is then all in all. People and angels serving time for their crime, how much time is known to God. When they will repent I don't know as God hasn't revealed that info to me. Maybe God has given this revelation to someone.

 

[one2question]

Where are either of those things mentioned in Scripture? All I can find is this:

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (ESV)

Satan and all his followers end up in the lake of fire, forever. I can’t find anything about where they are abet forgiven. I also see where the only thrones in heaven are those of the Father and the Son:

Rev 22:3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. (ESV)

Yes, I am aware of those quotes from the bible after reading and studying it for over 50 years. So this revelation was not given from the bible which is fine as the bible is very limited, obviously not exhaustive, there is sooooo much room for ongoing truth to be passed on from God to His people as the bible stopped recording God's revelation with His people around 1928 years ago. So because something isn’t recorded doesn’t mean it didn’t happen or not going to happen beyond that point in time. More revelation has been given by God over the past 1900 years thankfully.

 

[Vinny37]

That's interesting. It's been a long time since I read that book. To me, his argument is doing what he said elsewhere (pretty sure in Mere Christianity) was nonsense: basically, God has created a rock too heavy for him to lift, so his omnipotence is not so omnipotent.

If one is Arminian, then it should only be said that God set things up in such a way that people were free to reject him, which is not at all a defeat of omnipotence; he used his omnipotence create the conditions. If one is Reformed, then God used his omnipotence to save those whom he saves.

I don’t think the Problem citation was a logical contradiction on CSL’s part, merely the idea that sovereignty has created lesser sovereignties which per force must be allowed to go against his wishes, defeating his specific wishes for them as individuals, but not defeating his general wish of allowing them to choose or reject his individual wish.

Lewis put a similar thought in The Last Battle—the Dwarfs refused to be taken in, and so Aslan could not take them in, though still gave them as much as they could receive.

As Lewis understood, omnipotence cannot disobey the law of noncontradiction (grounded in his nature), so it is folly to say that the omnipotence aspect of deity can do everything, eg lifting an unliftable rock. The intrinsically impossible is impossible for omnipotence; all intrinsically possible is potentially possible for omnipotence, but omnipotence factors in the ethical, filtering out certain actions: some victory is unethical; some defeat is ethical. Deity does what he is.

 

[Free]

Yes, I am aware of those quotes from the bible after reading and studying it for over 50 years. So this revelation was not given from the bible which is fine as the bible is very limited, obviously not exhaustive, there is sooooo much room for ongoing truth to be passed on from God to His people as the bible stopped recording God's revelation with His people around 1928 years ago. So because something isn’t recorded doesn’t mean it didn’t happen or not going to happen beyond that point in time. More revelation has been given by God over the past 1900 years thankfully.

Well, no. The Bible is complete and is sufficient for all Christian belief and practice, and is the final authority for such things. Any supposed revelation, such as what you have given, that contradicts Scripture, cannot, by definition, be from God.

 

[reddogs]

Yes, Jesus said He will seperate people, some on His left and others on His right. Some will go and inherit His kingdom and reign with Him for 1000 years as kings and priests. Rev. 5:10. Others will miss out on this, like the 5 foolish virgins. But some time later, maybe 10, 100, 1000, 1000000 years later, after those who have missed out on reigning in Jesus millennial kingdom, will repent of their sin and find God's mercy and grace, being reconciled to God so that He is then all in all. People and angels serving time for their crime, how much time is known to God. When they will repent I don't know as God hasn't revealed that info to me. Maybe God has given this revelation to someone.

That is not in the Bible, it clearly puts who will perish and who will be saved.

 

[reddogs]

I don't identity as a Universalist or a Calvinist or align with any other group yet I fully believe that God exercises His sovereignty at all times and in everything that comes to pass. I firmly believe that God as the Creator imagined a script that spans eternity and has ensured everything is going according to that storyline.
A few highlights within this fantastic plot:
- God creates angelic beings
- Some go to the dark side
- God creates humans
- Humans sin
- God sends His Son to be the Lamb to reconcile all to Himself.
- God's mercy is manifested when Satan and his followers repent and are forgiven, restored, redeemed, reconciled to God
- God's grace is extended to Satan, evidenced by God offering him a throne on His left, with the Lamb on His right. And there's more, an eternity more!

Satan passed the point of no return when he caused the death of Christ at the cross. He will never repent..