Christian Forums

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • We stand with Ukraine. Please consider supporting Ukraine through a qualified organization.
  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

The Good News/The Bad News

jerry63935

Member
From
u.s
Gender
Male
Messages
1,928
Joined
Sep 26, 2019
The first time I read Matthew 15 about the Canaanite woman to whom Jesus said He would not give the food to the dogs...
past i have struggled with that to as it sounds so not like Christ.. i would like to understand jewish meanings and customs .it is completely different than our ways.. only a wheat famer would totally understand tares or darnell wheat
 

Hopeful

Member
From
Arizona
Gender
Male
Messages
3,376
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Hi StoveBolts.

I like what you wrote here. I believe it is a quite reasonable understanding of the scripture. I'd just like to comment on what I think the difference is between what you believe and what I believe. (I am not trying to open a debate as much as give a fair account as to our differences for the sake of others.) If I understand you correctly, you, and I, see the conviction of the HS and the commands of the Gospel eliciting a response on our part. Our difference is that I see our desire and ability to perform the response called for as also a part of God's grace given to us. If I understand you accurately, you would see our response to some degree as coming from our own independent volition - i.e. desire - and to some degree by our own power - i.e. ability.
Don't you see that your "perform the response called for" and SB's "desire to respond" are the same thing?
Nobody comes to God without wanting to come to God.
 

OzSpen

C F Martin D28 acoustic guitar
Member
From
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
5,853
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
My NASB doesn't have footnotes!
However, I have other bibles that do.
I hate to read them until I can come to my own understanding.
How do I do this?
By taking into account God's nature.
The first time I read Matthew 15 about the Canaanite woman to whom Jesus said He would not give the food to the dogs...
I was horrified.
About 2 seconds later I was thinking that He must have meant something else.
And indeed He did.

By the way, my NASB reads exactly as the NET bible you posted above for Eph 2:8....

wondering,

Does your NASB come with the same footnotes as the NET Bible? If you use the NASB online, you'll find footnotes throughout the entire Bible. See on Bible Gateway, NASB, of Genesis 1.

Can you interpret 1 Tim 2:15 (NASB) without looking at the footnotes? "But women will be [a]preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with [b]self-restraint."

There are too many nuances in Hebrew and Greek for me not to take note of the footnotes. That's my position, but what you choose to do is up to you.

Oz
 

OzSpen

C F Martin D28 acoustic guitar
Member
From
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
5,853
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
My NASB doesn't have footnotes!
However, I have other bibles that do.
I hate to read them until I can come to my own understanding.
How do I do this?
By taking into account God's nature.
The first time I read Matthew 15 about the Canaanite woman to whom Jesus said He would not give the food to the dogs...
I was horrified.
About 2 seconds later I was thinking that He must have meant something else.
And indeed He did.

By the way, my NASB reads exactly as the NET bible you posted above for Eph 2:8....

wondering,

This is how I read the Bible. I accept the plain meaning (literal interpretation) of the text. Literal interpretation includes the use of figures of speech. See my articles: (1) What is literal interpretation? and (2) What is wrong with allegorical interpretation?

I read The Sydney Morning Herald online literally. Even my reading of the heretic, John Dominic Crossan, for my PhD dissertation meant I had to read him literally. However, that's not what he does with historical texts, including the Bible, as he inflicts his postmodern, deconstructionist, reader-response interpretation on the text.

Then, if I experience difficulty in understanding a verse or words in Scripture, I seek help from commentaries. Are you aware of some older commentaries available free on the Bible Hub website? See: Eph 2:8 (ESV),

Blessings to you in your search for truth.

Oz
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Supporter
From
Houston Texas
Gender
Male
Messages
32,079
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? .... Come back Hospes
:pray:lol

... or wondering hacked your account :nono

Yes, the point being that we as a brother in Christ, must go after the lost sheep so they can repent and return to Christ, and therefore be reconciled back to God.

Otherwise our brother who became lost will remain as a sinner; ie a tax collector or heathen.


“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

Matthew 18:12-17


The process of restoring a brother who becomes lost —



  • “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
  • But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
  • And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.




JLB
 

jasonc

Member
Christian
Yes
Messages
43,264
Joined
Mar 11, 2014
mcgee he has been, dead for a few decades ,still his,broadcasts are heard today.listened to him on many road trips
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Supporter
From
Houston Texas
Gender
Male
Messages
32,079
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Nobody comes to God without wanting to come to God.

Yes it is the grace of God.

This is the power of the Gospel.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16


  • the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes




JLB
 

Hospes

Member
From
Arizona
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
802
Joined
Jan 22, 2016
Don't you see that your "perform the response called for" and SB's "desire to respond" are the same thing?
Nobody comes to God without wanting to come to God.
I'd beg to differ. First comes the desire to respond, but to actually respond requires an ability to carry out the response. I believe God provides both. I am just restating the content of these two verses:

And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work. 2 Corinthians 9:8 (ESV)​
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Philippians 2:12–13 (ESV)​

The first verse tells us it is God who provides grace so that we are sufficient to do good works.

The second verse tells us it is God who is the agent behind our good desire and ability to do His will. We are to work very hard on our salvation all the while recognizing it is God that is providing us the will - our desire/motivation - and the ability "to do" His "good pleasure".

You see, with this view a person truly has no grounds for boasting, but if we place ourselves as a key ingredient to God's work, then we can't help but have reason to boast. We have no reason to boast.
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Supporter
From
Houston Texas
Gender
Male
Messages
32,079
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
What is the grace of God, relative to my post?
Our wanting to come to Him?
Our coming to Him?
What are you labeling as the grace of God?

Grace is the Holy Spirit; which is why He is called the Spirit of grace.


Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29


It is through the Spirit (grace) we are able to obey the Gospel; the truth.


Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. 1 Peter 1:22-23


It is by the Spirit we are born again.

We are born again by believing and therefore obeying the Gospel; the power of God unto salvation.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16


For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8



The Holy Spirit is involved in our salvation from start to finish, empowering us to walk in righteousness and obey the Lord.




JLB
 

Fastfredy0

2022 Supporter
From
Chandler, Tx
Gender
Male
Messages
1,357
Joined
May 4, 2020
The first verse [2 Corinthians 9:8] tells us it is God who provides grace so that we are sufficient to do good works.

The second verse [Phil 2:12-13] tells us it is God who is the agent behind our good desire and ability to do His will. We are to work very hard on our salvation all the while recognizing it is God that is providing us the will - our desire/motivation - and the ability "to do" His "good pleasure".
Agreed
Augustine: “But I commend not the works of my hands, for I fear that when thou examinest them thou wilt find more faults than merits. This only I say and desire, despise not the works of thy hands. See in me thy work, not mine. If thou sees mine, thou condemnest; if thou sees thine own, thou crownest. Whatever good works I have are of thee".

You see, with this view a person truly has no grounds for boasting, but if we place ourselves as a key ingredient to God's work, then we can't help but have reason to boast. We have no reason to boast.
Agreed
Definition of work ... activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result.
 

Hopeful

Member
From
Arizona
Gender
Male
Messages
3,376
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
I'd beg to differ. First comes the desire to respond, but to actually respond requires an ability to carry out the response. I believe God provides both. I am just restating the content of these two verses:

And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work. 2 Corinthians 9:8 (ESV)​
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Philippians 2:12–13 (ESV)​

The first verse tells us it is God who provides grace so that we are sufficient to do good works.

The second verse tells us it is God who is the agent behind our good desire and ability to do His will. We are to work very hard on our salvation all the while recognizing it is God that is providing us the will - our desire/motivation - and the ability "to do" His "good pleasure".

You see, with this view a person truly has no grounds for boasting, but if we place ourselves as a key ingredient to God's work, then we can't help but have reason to boast. We have no reason to boast.
Is it God's fault if somebody doesn't come to Him?
For your statement to be valid, so must its alternative.
The "prize" is available to all, so whatever you decided is boasting is merely the reception of God's gift.
I wasn't "proud" of anything when I unwrapped my Christmas present, so I don't see how pride figures into your thesis.
 

Hopeful

Member
From
Arizona
Gender
Male
Messages
3,376
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Agreed
Augustine: “But I commend not the works of my hands, for I fear that when thou examinest them thou wilt find more faults than merits. This only I say and desire, despise not the works of thy hands. See in me thy work, not mine. If thou sees mine, thou condemnest; if thou sees thine own, thou crownest. Whatever good works I have are of thee".


Agreed
Definition of work ... activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result.
Believing is a "work"?
 

OzSpen

C F Martin D28 acoustic guitar
Member
From
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
5,853
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
I'd beg to differ. First comes the desire to respond, but to actually respond requires an ability to carry out the response. I believe God provides both. I am just restating the content of these two verses:

And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work. 2 Corinthians 9:8 (ESV)​
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Philippians 2:12–13 (ESV)​

The first verse tells us it is God who provides grace so that we are sufficient to do good works.

The second verse tells us it is God who is the agent behind our good desire and ability to do His will. We are to work very hard on our salvation all the while recognizing it is God that is providing us the will - our desire/motivation - and the ability "to do" His "good pleasure".

You see, with this view a person truly has no grounds for boasting, but if we place ourselves as a key ingredient to God's work, then we can't help but have reason to boast. We have no reason to boast.

Hospes,

How, then, do you interpret Titus 2:11 (NASB), "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people"?

Oz
 

OzSpen

C F Martin D28 acoustic guitar
Member
From
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
5,853
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Believing is a "work"?

Hopeful,

The Philippian jailer asked Paul and Silas when they were released from prison, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied: "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household” (Ac 16:30-31 NASB).

There is not a hint here that Paul and Silas called the jailer to work to believe and so become a Christian. From where did you get the idea faith/believing was a work??

What does Romans 4:5-6 (NASB) state about faith as to whether it is a work? "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works."

Nothing could be clearer than this. Faith that leads to salvation is not a work. That's Bible.

Oz
 

Fastfredy0

2022 Supporter
From
Chandler, Tx
Gender
Male
Messages
1,357
Joined
May 4, 2020
I wasn't "proud" of anything when I unwrapped my Christmas present, so I don't see how pride figures into your thesis.
Because of your righteousness (libertarian "free will' faith) you opened the gift and became God's son. Believing in God is something to be proud of if your faith is self-generated, as this righteous act is the key to eternal bliss that few attain.
The guy beside you opened the gift and went to hell.
Besides, it more that just opening a gift to see what is inside. You have to believe something inside is there or you won't get it; what's worse is that your (our) depravity won't let you believe that such a thing is inside unless God intervenes.
Romans 3:11 No one understands [divine things]; no one seeks for God. (won't believe what's in the box/gift)
1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural [unregenerate] person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God (won't believe what's in the box/gift) [regeneration comes from the Spirit of God], for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually [the Holy Spirit] discerned.
John 3:20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light (won't believe what's in the box/gift)
Believing is a "work"?
Premise 1: Definition of work: ... activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result. (see dictionary, the authority of the English language).
Premise 2: One must believe (mental process) in order to be saved (purpose).
Premise 3: The origin of faith is man.
Conclusion: If the cause of belief is yourself, then it is your work. It is something God has commanded you to do. It is obedience (a work)
Aside: Obedience is still a work if God is the cause, but I assume the question is with the assumption that man is the cause of his own faith.

John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” Clearly this verse defines “faith” as a work. Thus faith must originate from God since God’s grace does not include man works (Galatians 5:2).
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the [only] Way [to God] and the [real] Truth and the [real] Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me… and that, by positive assertion, so that whatever is not Christ is not the way but error.
Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior Faith is a work of righteousness, thus its source cannot be man.
Works are not demanded, whereby the creature might ascribe anything to himself; a condition, whereby mercy is owned


IMO
 

Fastfredy0

2022 Supporter
From
Chandler, Tx
Gender
Male
Messages
1,357
Joined
May 4, 2020
Hopeful

The Philippian jailer asked Paul and Silas when they were released from prison, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied: "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household” (Ac 16:30-31 NASB).
No where in the verse does it say if man is the cause of faith or God. Thus explicit verses should be sought.

Verses like:
John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh [the flesh is carnal and flesh always lusteth against the Spirit], nor of the will of man, but of GOD.


What does Romans 4:5-6 (NASB) state about faith as to whether it is a work? "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works."
This is true. But what is the reason it is not a work. It is not a work of man, but of God.
John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” Clearly this verse defines faith as a work. Thus faith must originate from God since God’s grace does not include man works (Galatians 5:2).

Work: activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result.
"he was tired after a day's work"
Work: a task or tasks to be undertaken; something a person or thing has to do.
Work: to exert oneself physically or mentally especially in sustained effort for a purpose or under compulsion or necessity
Work: to produce a desired effect or result : succeed
Work: exertion or effort directed to produce or accomplish something; labor; toil.

Faith by definition is a work. The question is, who's doing the WORK.

Aside: Bedtime for bozo (moi)
Where's Hospes ... this is his baby ... lol
 

OzSpen

C F Martin D28 acoustic guitar
Member
From
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
5,853
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Because of your righteousness (libertarian "free will' faith) you opened the gift and became God's son. Believing in God is something to be proud of if your faith is self-generated, as this righteous act is the key to eternal bliss that few attain.
The guy beside you opened the gift and went to hell.

FF,

Believing in God and Jesus is not something to be egotistically proud of. It is something for which a Christian will be grateful for all eternity.

Since when did opening the gate and believing in God lead a person to hell?

Oz
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Supporter
From
Houston Texas
Gender
Male
Messages
32,079
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Besides, it more that just opening a gift to see what is inside.

If one believes there is a gift inside but doesn’t put forth the effort to open it, will one be saved?

The answer is no.

Believing that saves results in obeying.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21



JLB
 

Hospes

Member
From
Arizona
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
802
Joined
Jan 22, 2016
I agree with @Hospes. You need to use a dictionary.
Definition of theologian: A theologian is someone who studies the nature of God, religion, and religious beliefs.
Accepting the common definitions, everyone practices theology to varying degrees, so everyone is a theologian. Just some are further along than others in knowledge and skill; everyone is somewhere on the sliding scale of theologian.
I saw Romans 2:11 mentioned above. I think the meaning of IMPARTIALITY in regards to God is distorted by most people. I have an opinion; curious to see what you think.

Question: In regards to God and IMPARTIALITY, what is your opinion? Assuming God is partial, what things/people does He show partiality to and what is it based upon?
After thinking about it some, here are some thoughts and stuff I have used to help me think:
  • From Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, the word "partiality" means "the fault of one who, when responsible to give judgment, has respect to the position, rank, popularity, or circumstances of men, instead of their intrinsic conditions, preferring the rich and powerful to those who are not so." The word is used in Romans 2:11 (ESV), Ephesians 6:9 (ESV); Collosians 3:25 (ESV); James. 2:1 (ESV)
  • We know God does favor His redeemed. The Gospel is saturated with rich and wonderful promises for His children and not for all people. This is summed up in Romans 8:31 (ESV).
  • Given the unambiguous Biblical statements that God shows no partiality, it seems it good to describe His favorable disposition toward His chosen as something other than "partiality." This will avoid confusion. We could use the language in 1 John 3:1 (ESV) as a template to describe God's favorable disposition toward us. I.e. He has a special "kind of love" toward us that is not toward those who are still of the world.
  • Wrapped up in Unconditional Election is God's impartiality and the thought that He chooses for His own purposes. Paul wrote that "His judgments are unsearchable" Romans 11:33 (ESV) and I think in that ignorance is where we are when it comes to understanding why He wills to show a special kind of love to some and not others. I think the passage below tells us something about what God does, but we are still left with not being able to search out His judgements. We are simply given God's declaration of “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Romans 9:10–15 (ESV)​
And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”​
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”​

Some last thoughts on accepting God's "unsearchable" judgements: to accept and submit to such judgements requires for us to have a few dispositions toward God:
  1. We recognize and humbly agree with Paul: "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!"
  2. Because we have notions of what is "right" does not place us in the position of being His advisors: "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?”
  3. He owes us nothing. We are creatures, He is our creator. He made us; our very continued existence is at His pleasure. "Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?"
  4. To have joy about 1-3, we must be convinced that God is working on our behalf to bring about our best and that He is able to accomplish "our best."
Honestly, Fastfredy0, I am not sure if I fully understood your question. I do hope somewhere in this mishmash of thoughts I touched on what you were thinking about or maybe given some fodder to further your own thinking. Let me know if I missed the mark and we can discuss further.

Thanks again for the question!
 
Top