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The Good News/The Bad News

jerry63935

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I don't know why but I try not to read commentaries. I have many bibles, including some different Italian ones, and I use them. Very rarely will I use commentary.

I"d rather use OzSpen's web page or ask someone I trust on this forum.
your still using a commentary . i have few different study Bibles i carry a thompson chain reference . i do like doing a google search . i been doing a study on the trial of your faith . sometimes trials are brought on by us. other times its part of our walk with Christ. there was many good thoughts on the subject
 

jasonc

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i dont write or speak greek i write and speak english
so i guess the notes of xmfr,shorthand cfor transformer is not your thing .yes the. word xmfr is used instead transformer ,darn itron limits note lengths ,its used for locating meters and inputting reads . that is why will also post xmas ,and other shorthand
 

OzSpen

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I think that the term theologian has come to mean one that studies God's word as his life's
Work.

Most will have a PhD.

I'd like to say that I consider you to be one, and a couple of others on this forum.

One that "studies" the bible more than others, just needs to know more.

There are plenty of this type around.

wondering,

I'm not convinced one needs to have a PhD or ThD to be a theologian. I know a few with BAs in theology and MAs/MDivs in theology who fit the category of theologians.

I have an interesting exchange from time to time with my 70-year-old sister who openly states, "I'm not a student of the Bible," yet she attends a weekly KYB group. I know KYB is not heavy Bible study.

I'm doing the final edit of a new article from my PhD to present to an Australian peer-reviewed ejournal. It will have a title something like, "Why would an evangelical study John Dominic Crossan?" If it's accepted, I'll post a link somewhere on CFnet.

Oz
 

Hospes

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Hospes,

I was dealing with the exegesis of Eph 2:8-9 to demonstrate that both faith and grace, being feminine nouns, cannot refer to the neuter antecedent, touto (that/which). Yes, both faith and grace make up salvation as the gift of grace. However, nowhere in these 2 verses is there anything that teaches irresistible grace.

I urge you to read, "Arminius on the Gift of Salvation."

Please note how the gift of salvation is received:

12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God (John 1:12-13 ESV).​

There is no irresistible salvation, whether by faith or grace, proclaimed in these 2 verses. There cannot be any salvation until a person receives Jesus and that includes believing in his name.

Oz
Hi Oz.

I've been thinking the debate was regarding the whole salvific process of Ephesians 2:8-9 (ESV) including faith as part of the gift. When did it switch over to whether or not salvation is an irresistible grace? Regardless, it's nice that we both agree that the whole salvific process, which includes faith, is a gift.

I am a bit confused by your use of references. On the question of salvation being a gift, you quoted three references, one of which was making a case faith is not a gift and two stating it is a gift in that it is part of the gift of salvation. And now you directed me to Arminius himself to support your conclusion that salvation is not irresistible and yet he is denying that he believes the very conclusion for which you are arguing:

[First, he lays out what he thinks is attributed to him; i.e. what others accuse him of believing. - Hospes]​
Faith is not the pure gift of God, but depends partly on the grace of God, and partly on the powers of Free Will; that, if a man will, he may believe or not believe.
[Now he responds to those accusing him of believing what is in italics above- Hospes]​
I never said this, I never thought of saying it, and, relying on God’s grace, I never will enunciate my sentiments on matters of this description in a manner thus desperate and confused. I simply affirm, that this enunciation is false, “faith is not the pure gift of God;” that this is likewise false, if taken according to the rigor of the words, “faith depends partly on the grace of God, and partly on the powers of free will” and that this is also false when thus enunciated, “If a man will, he can believe or not believe.” If they suppose, that I hold some opinions from which these assertions may by good consequence be deduced, why do they not quote my words? [Arminius on the Gift of Salvation]​

(Oh, the rich irony of finding myself in agreement with Arminius! Fastfredy0 is liable to report me to the Calvinist Club and have my membership stripped and be forbidden to ever again flash the Calvinist gang sign.)

I appreciate you pointing me to Arminius, but I wonder if you read it. I may not be an expert on Greek, but I do know English! Mr. A, in the article you referenced, is not supporting your POV.
 

Hospes

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I am gone for like a day and come back to such a volume of stuff to comment on! Here goes"
The Synod of Dort came up with the acronym T.U.L.I.P. to remember the important points of Calvinism better.
It only works in English, so the Dutch had no intention of creating the acronym. We of the Reformed bent see God's providence in it ending up as TULIP in English, but then again, we see God's providence in everything!
All of TULIP is tied to having or not having free will,,,,
Actually, you'd be fairer to your opponent's views to allow them to state what they believe. Being one of those to whom you disagree, I'd state that TULIP is tied to God having and retaining sovereignty over all things.
Macarthur does not have DR. before his name.
He is neither a theologian nor a Greek scholar.
Having worked with quite a few PhDs, I have found a Dr. in front of a name - or not in front of a name - to not have as much correlation to intelligence, skill, or knowledge as I originally thought.
It is accepted theology that the gift in Ephesians 2:8 is salvation....
Yes, but it is also accepted theology that the whole salvific process is a gift. Surely, you do not think you're view is the only "accepted theology?" (BTW, I freely admit there are reasonable views that I do not agree with.)
He has an odd commentary, but I don't know enough about it to discuss it.
So how can you know it's "odd"?
 

stovebolts

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We were discussing Ephesians 2:8.
It is common knowledge that the gift spoken of is salvation...
not grace and not faith.

Faith is not a gift because that would mean that God has to do everything for you
and YOU contribute nothing.
Yes,I am also discussing the same verse.
let me include OzSpen as well since I saw him reply to me as well.

Genesis 1:24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

We see here that God empowers His creation. God creates the land, then He commands the land to bring forth living creatures. Thus, God creates the living creatures.

Would we then say that the land contributed nothing? Why then would you conclude that if faith was a gift, that the one offered the gift contributes nothing toward salvation?

Gifts come in all shapes and sizes. But this does not mean we should take Gods gifts for granted. We have a responsibility with the gifts we are given.

Regarding the Holy Spirit:
John 16:8

English Standard Version
And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:

What is the purpose of the Holy Spirit for the unbelievers? This verse indicates to me that it is to bring unbelievers to repentance. It also indicates to me that the believer will also be convicted. Some call this sanctification.

In your words, what does Romans 10:17 mean?
NKJV 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Do you believe that the Word of God is a gift? And what does it mean, “ and hearing by the word of God”.

We are taught by Jesus to have ears to hear, and eyes to see. When the Holy Spirit convicts us, do we, or the unbeliever shut his ears and eyes, or do we open our ears, and open our eyes to the gifts God desires to bestow upon us?
 

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Yes,I am also discussing the same verse.
let me include OzSpen as well since I saw him reply to me as well.

Genesis 1:24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

We see here that God empowers His creation. God creates the land, then He commands the land to bring forth living creatures. Thus, God creates the living creatures.

Would we then say that the land contributed nothing? Why then would you conclude that if faith was a gift, that the one offered the gift contributes nothing toward salvation?

Gifts come in all shapes and sizes. But this does not mean we should take Gods gifts for granted. We have a responsibility with the gifts we are given.

Regarding the Holy Spirit:
John 16:8

English Standard Version
And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:

What is the purpose of the Holy Spirit for the unbelievers? This verse indicates to me that it is to bring unbelievers to repentance. It also indicates to me that the believer will also be convicted. Some call this sanctification.

In your words, what does Romans 10:17 mean?
NKJV 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Do you believe that the Word of God is a gift? And what does it mean, “ and hearing by the word of God”.

We are taught by Jesus to have ears to hear, and eyes to see. When the Holy Spirit convicts us, do we, or the unbeliever shut his ears and eyes, or do we open our ears, and open our eyes to the gifts God desires to bestow upon us?
Hi StoveBolts.

I like what you wrote here. I believe it is a quite reasonable understanding of the scripture. I'd just like to comment on what I think the difference is between what you believe and what I believe. (I am not trying to open a debate as much as give a fair account as to our differences for the sake of others.) If I understand you correctly, you, and I, see the conviction of the HS and the commands of the Gospel eliciting a response on our part. Our difference is that I see our desire and ability to perform the response called for as also a part of God's grace given to us. If I understand you accurately, you would see our response to some degree as coming from our own independent volition - i.e. desire - and to some degree by our own power - i.e. ability.

Let me know if I have been fair to you in restating your beliefs and correct me if I have not.
 

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your still using a commentary . i have few different study Bibles i carry a thompson chain reference . i do like doing a google search . i been doing a study on the trial of your faith . sometimes trials are brought on by us. other times its part of our walk with Christ. there was many good thoughts on the subject
LOL
I don't read the comments down below, IF the bible I'm reading has them.
I use the NASB and it has no comments as footnotes.
 

Fastfredy0

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Oh, the rich irony of finding myself in agreement with Arminius! @Fastfredy0 is liable to report me to the Calvinist Club and have my membership stripped and be forbidden to ever again flash the Calvinist gang sign.
Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? .... Come back Hospes
:pray:lol

... or wondering hacked your account :nono
 

stovebolts

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Hi StoveBolts.

I like what you wrote here. I believe it is a quite reasonable understanding of the scripture. I'd just like to comment on what I think the difference is between what you believe and what I believe. (I am not trying to open a debate as much as give a fair account as to our differences for the sake of others.) If I understand you correctly, you, and I, see the conviction of the HS and the commands of the Gospel eliciting a response on our part. Our difference is that I see our desire and ability to perform the response called for as also a part of God's grace given to us. If I understand you accurately, you would see our response to some degree as coming from our own independent volition - i.e. desire - and to some degree by our own power - i.e. ability.

Let me know if I have been fair to you in restating your beliefs and correct me if I have not.
Hi,
First, you’ll find I have no axe to grind and I enjoy an open discussion on the matter. For me, if our belief enables us to sin, or continue to sin, then we’ve got the wrong belief system. Our belief should be focused on growing closer to God as He guides our individual path.

That being said, I don’t think our thinking is too far apart. As far as our response coming from ourselves, I don’t think that’s quiet hitting the mark.

My theology is based on Genesis 2:7 NIV
Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life,and the man became a living being.

This “breath” I would describe as a Devine spark which is within every soul. In essence, humanity could be described in one sense as Devine dirt clods lol. Perhaps this is why Solomon writes in his confession: Ecc 12:7 ESV
and the dust returneth to the earth as it was, and the spirit returneth unto God who gave it.
If it is true that this spark is within every human, then the question for me is, “Why isn’t that spark brighter”.

Now, this Devine spark is not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which Jesus breathed upon his disciples ( John 20:20 ). So please, let’s not confuse the two.

I know it may sound like I’m jumping around here, but I believe in free will. However, we can only choose what’s available, which limits our choices. I also believe in the harmony within the Trinity which we are invited to participate in.

That being said, this Spark desires to be in harmony with God, but our flesh also has desires. Both are within every human, and we all battle between our flesh and the Spirit. The Spark ( Gods Spirit) within us is very much a part of who we are, and how God created us. So, to answer your question, I believe there comes a time that we have to make a choice about the path we follow. Do we seek harmony, or do we seek destruction. Both are within us because Gods Spirit is already within us, and remains in us until our death.

So, when you say, ”by our own power”, we have to consider that Gods Spirit within us needs to be taken into account.

I know... not what you were expecting. Like yourself, I’m still working it out.
 

wondering

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wondering,

I'm not convinced one needs to have a PhD or ThD to be a theologian. I know a few with BAs in theology and MAs/MDivs in theology who fit the category of theologians.

I have an interesting exchange from time to time with my 70-year-old sister who openly states, "I'm not a student of the Bible," yet she attends a weekly KYB group. I know KYB is not heavy Bible study.

I'm doing the final edit of a new article from my PhD to present to an Australian peer-reviewed ejournal. It will have a title something like, "Why would an evangelical study John Dominic Crossan?" If it's accepted, I'll post a link somewhere on CFnet.

Oz
Yes, I agree.
And please post the link when you can.
I'm sure it'll be accepted.....
:)
 

OzSpen

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Yes,I am also discussing the same verse.
let me include OzSpen as well since I saw him reply to me as well.

Genesis 1:24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

We see here that God empowers His creation. God creates the land, then He commands the land to bring forth living creatures. Thus, God creates the living creatures.

Would we then say that the land contributed nothing? Why then would you conclude that if faith was a gift, that the one offered the gift contributes nothing toward salvation?

Gifts come in all shapes and sizes. But this does not mean we should take Gods gifts for granted. We have a responsibility with the gifts we are given.

Regarding the Holy Spirit:
John 16:8

English Standard Version
And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:

What is the purpose of the Holy Spirit for the unbelievers? This verse indicates to me that it is to bring unbelievers to repentance. It also indicates to me that the believer will also be convicted. Some call this sanctification.

In your words, what does Romans 10:17 mean?
NKJV 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Do you believe that the Word of God is a gift? And what does it mean, “ and hearing by the word of God”.

We are taught by Jesus to have ears to hear, and eyes to see. When the Holy Spirit convicts us, do we, or the unbeliever shut his ears and eyes, or do we open our ears, and open our eyes to the gifts God desires to bestow upon us?

SB,

Excellent observations. There are 2 verses that especially point to the person exercising faith:
  • John 1:12 (NIV), "Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God." So, all who become children of God have to receive Jesus and believe in His name. This verse does not say: "Yet to all who were given the gift of salvation directly by God, to those who were decreed to believe in his name, he gave the right to become children of God
  • Acts 16:31 (NIV), "They [Paul & Silas] replied, ‘[You] believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved – you and your household.’ "Believe" is an imperative/command that requires the one to whom the command is directed to act. This verse promotes the theology that a person has to believe to receive salvation. This verse does not state, "You cannot believe in Jesus Christ to receive salvation unless you know for sure you have been predestined by God."
Yes, God gives grace that enable salvation for all but people choose to believe or reject Jesus' offer of salvation.

Oz
 

OzSpen

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LOL
I don't read the comments down below, IF the bible I'm reading has them.
I use the NASB and it has no comments as footnotes.

wondering,

I encourage you to read the footnotes of the NASB as they clarify, in some circumstances, where there may be ambiguity. The NASB online for Eph 2:8-9 reads: "8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [a]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.'

To what does the superscript at "that", [a] , refer? This footnote states, "i.e. that salvation." This explains briefly what we have discussed in this thread. Based on the Greek syntax, the substantive "that" (neuter gender) cannot refer to the antecedents which are feminines, grace and faith.

Whenever there is this kind of footnote in the NASB, I urge you to check it. The best version to bring clarity through its footnotes, in my opinion, is the NET Bible. For Eph 2:8-9 (NET) it reads:

" For by grace you are saved[a] through faith,[b] and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from[c] works, so that no one can boast.[d]"

Footnotes

  1. Ephesians 2:8 tn See note on the same expression in v. 5.
  2. Ephesians 2:8 tc The feminine article is found before πίστεως (pisteōs, “faith”) in the Byzantine text as well as in A Ψ 1241 1881 al. Perhaps for some scribes the article was intended to imply creedal fidelity as a necessary condition of salvation (“you are saved through the faith”), although elsewhere in the corpus Paulinum the phrase διὰ τῆς πίστεως (dia tēs pisteōs) is used for the act of believing rather than the content of faith (cf. Rom 3:30, 31; Gal 3:14; Eph 3:17; Col 2:12). On the other side, strong representatives of the Alexandrian and Western texts (א B D* F G P 0278 6 33 1175 1505 1739 al bo) lack the article. Without the article, the meaning of the text is most likely “saved through faith” as opposed to “saved through the faith.” On both internal and external grounds the anarthrous wording is preferred.
  3. Ephesians 2:9 tn Or “not as a result of.”
  4. Ephesians 2:9 tn Grk “lest anyone should boast.”

Oz
 

wondering

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I am gone for like a day and come back to such a volume of stuff to comment on! Here goes"

Hope all went well.
It only works in English, so the Dutch had no intention of creating the acronym. We of the Reformed bent see God's providence in it ending up as TULIP in English, but then again, we see God's providence in everything!
It only works in English, but the main ideas come from Dort.
Of course, they were translated by someone to English to better remember the main points of Calvinism.

Actually, you'd be fairer to your opponent's views to allow them to state what they believe. Being one of those to whom you disagree, I'd state that TULIP is tied to God having and retaining sovereignty over all things.

Every Christian believes God retains sovereignty over all things.
Not every Christian believes that God predestines everything that will happen and the final fate of every
individual person. This is limited only to the reformed.

As to what YOU believe,,,I wouldn't know that.
I'm stating what CALVINISM teaches.
That would be the Bad News part of this thread.

There is absolutely no reason to preach the gospel if Calvinism in true.
I would think that God is sovereign enough to elect whoever He wants to in a different way since the
person to whom the gospel is being preached would not have the free will to accept anyway....in Calvinist teaching.

And how many missionaries have died to preach the Good News....
This seems to me to be unnecessary too if Calvinism be correct.

Having worked with quite a few PhDs, I have found a Dr. in front of a name - or not in front of a name - to not have as much correlation to intelligence, skill, or knowledge as I originally thought.

Well, I'd say that a Dr. knows much more math than I do.
A Dr. knows much more about architecture than I do.
I hope you realize that DR. before a name means that the person is
supposed to know everything about their chosen field.

Yes, but it is also accepted theology that the whole salvific process is a gift. Surely, you do not think you're view is the only "accepted theology?" (BTW, I freely admit there are reasonable views that I do not agree with.)

I'm not going to go through the Greek.
I'll only say this:

IF faith were a gift, then Calvinism would be correct.
If God gifts us faith...that is the same as electing who will be saved...it would be the
same as Unconditional Election.

It is salvation that is the gift...the whole concept of salvation....
the salvation God made AVAILABLE through His Son paying for our sins.
God has given THAT gift.....the Grace belongs to God and is for everyone.

God's grace has appeared, bringing salvation to all people... Titus 2:11
And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus ... Romans 3:24
If only I (Paul) may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God...Acts 20:24


I find Acts 20:24 particularly interesting.
Paul is saying he received a ministry from our Lord Jesus.....
it was to testify to the good news of the grace of God.
Grace in this case means love and mercy...which is a part of grace.
God, being a loving God, has made salvation available to all men,
And being a merciful God, He has made each man decide for his own salvation.
So, believing in the free will of man to accept the good news, Paul preached the good news.

So how can you know it's "odd"?
How can I know what is odd?
Macarthur's footnotes in his published bible?
I have read a couple of the notes....and I remember thinking that I had never heard the
verses explained that way before.
I'm not knowledgeable enough to discuss this.
 

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Yes,I am also discussing the same verse.
let me include OzSpen as well since I saw him reply to me as well.

Genesis 1:24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

We see here that God empowers His creation. God creates the land, then He commands the land to bring forth living creatures. Thus, God creates the living creatures.

Would we then say that the land contributed nothing? Why then would you conclude that if faith was a gift, that the one offered the gift contributes nothing toward salvation?

I fail to see what Genesis has to do with Ephesians 2:8
However, in the free gift of salvation...
God has a part and man has a part.

If I believed that God had to do everything for me then I'd be a calvinist.

In Genesis 3:15 we have the very first gospel of good news...
that is that God is at enmity with satan...
and so shall man be.

This was the beginning of God's word to us which runs through the bible....
His revelation that He wishes to have a relationship with us and bring us to heaven with Him.

The plan of salvation belongs to God.
Grace is God's and is a free gift to all who want it.
God DOES NOT have faith for us.
WE are to supply the faith.

Faith and Belief are similar, but different in ways.

John 8:24
24“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”



We are to BELIEVE that Jesus is HE.....
Once we believe that Jesus is HE...then we have faith.
Jesus said UNLESS YOU BELIEVE.
It is up to us to believe -- it is not a gift.

Faith is the instrument by which grace works.
God gives us His grace, but without faith it is ineffective.

Romans 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith...we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.


We are justified (saved) by faith...
If we believe God supplies the faith, then we believe in the reformed faith.

Gifts come in all shapes and sizes. But this does not mean we should take Gods gifts for granted. We have a responsibility with the gifts we are given.
Of course.

Regarding the Holy Spirit:
John 16:8

English Standard Version
And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:

What is the purpose of the Holy Spirit for the unbelievers? This verse indicates to me that it is to bring unbelievers to repentance. It also indicates to me that the believer will also be convicted. Some call this sanctification.

Sanctification is not what you state above.
Sanctification is an on-going process by which we are made ever more and more to be like Jesus, or a true disciple of Jesus.

The purpose of the Holy Spirit for the UNBELIEVER is to convict of sin.
To convict only means to show/prove that one is guilty...

Definition of convict

1: to find or prove to be guiltyThe jury convicted them of fraud.
2: to convince of error or sinfulness


Convict does NOT mean to bring to repentance.
Only our free will can bring us to repentance...
The Holy Spirit only shows us our sins (if we are even willing to listen).

In your words, what does Romans 10:17 mean?
NKJV 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Easy. Just what it says. Reading the bible plainly and in context is the best way to read it.
FAITH COMES BY HEARING....We hear the word of God, believe what it is telling us, and we accept that we are sinners
in need of salvation and we then have faith in God for our salvation. (we are convicted...convinced).
Do you believe that the Word of God is a gift? And what does it mean, “ and hearing by the word of God”.

It just means that we hear the word of God.
"hearing by the word of God" is not very fluent.
If @Oz wishes to comment...I'll leave this up to him.
We hear/listen to the word of God and believe and are saved by faith.

We are taught by Jesus to have ears to hear, and eyes to see. When the Holy Spirit convicts us, do we, or the unbeliever shut his ears and eyes, or do we open our ears, and open our eyes to the gifts God desires to bestow upon us?
Interesting question.
I haven't given this much thought - it has never come up before.
But I think it's like asking if the glass is half full or half empty.

I'd say that the lost that want to stay that way do not listen....I have a friend that refuses to hear about God...she actually gets mad.
 

wondering

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wondering,

I encourage you to read the footnotes of the NASB as they clarify, in some circumstances, where there may be ambiguity. The NASB online for Eph 2:8-9 reads: "8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [a]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.'

To what does the superscript at "that", [a] , refer? This footnote states, "i.e. that salvation." This explains briefly what we have discussed in this thread. Based on the Greek syntax, the substantive "that" (neuter gender) cannot refer to the antecedents which are feminines, grace and faith.

Whenever there is this kind of footnote in the NASB, I urge you to check it. The best version to bring clarity through its footnotes, in my opinion, is the NET Bible. For Eph 2:8-9 (NET) it reads:



Oz
My NASB doesn't have footnotes!
However, I have other bibles that do.
I hate to read them until I can come to my own understanding.
How do I do this?
By taking into account God's nature.
The first time I read Matthew 15 about the Canaanite woman to whom Jesus said He would not give the food to the dogs...
I was horrified.
About 2 seconds later I was thinking that He must have meant something else.
And indeed He did.

By the way, my NASB reads exactly as the NET bible you posted above for Eph 2:8....
 

jerry63935

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My NASB doesn't have footnotes!
However, I have other bibles that do.
I hate to read them until I can come to my own understanding.
that is fine great way to study..but the foot notes can set you in a direction to study. maybe scripture or subject. if you trust others in here. you can trust others i really like clarke he is main one jay vernon mcgee is very good/trustworthy. even he quotes other commentators . if he agrees he will say if not he says that. i use a commentary to try understand back ground info. you trust ecf writings there no different / in the book of rev i read the commentary many times i see what they are saying but i disagree . for example the great whore many think its roman empire revived while it might be part of it. i disagree as it being the solo character
 
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