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The Gospel Prior to Calvary?

AVBunyan

Member
Hey folks – food for thought –

According to I Cor. 15:1-5 this is the gospel whereby we are saved today, according to the word of God given to Paul by Christ himself – If that be the case then we are saved by Christ dying for our sins and this is the message we are to believe today.

So…if you go back to the Gospels prior to Paul getting this revelation from Christ then what would have been the “gospel†back then since Christ had not died yet? What was the message whereby one was “saved†or brought into a right relationship with God?

Again, if the gospel today is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ then what would have been “the gospel†(glad tidings) during the gospels since Christ had not died yet? :o

God bless 8-)
 
The teachings of Jesus; Beatitudes, Parables, etc. We see in Matthew 11:5 that the Jesus preached the gospel the poor. Also, He taught His disciples about His death, burial and resurrection ahead of time (Matthew 12:39-40; 17:9, 22; 18:11 to note a few examples), and of His Lordship (Matthew 12:8; 13:41).
 
A.V.,
Jesus is th Lamb slained before the foundation of the earth (Re.13:8, 17:8). It has always been about the Cross and grace, those before calvary, looked ahead (Simeon and Anna), those of us after the Cross, look back. Every thing in the Old Testament (in regards to salvation) was a shadow of the substance that is Christ in the New Testament.
Beza
 
beza said:
1. It has always been about the Cross and grace,

2. Those before calvary, looked ahead (Simeon and Anna), those of us after the Cross, look back.

3. Every thing in the Old Testament (in regards to salvation) was a shadow of the substance that is Christ in the New Testament.
Thanks Beza - come let us reason together

1. I agree – no issue here – and we know God knew this and planned this – but…but…who else knew and understood this prior to Paul? Beza – please look really closely at these verses and tell me what this says to you:

Luke 18:32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
Luke 18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
Luke 18:34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

Did those close to Christ understand? Some had hints of some type of “redemption†for Israel but “dying for sins� The prophets spoke of it in Isaiah and other places but did the average Jew understand it?

2. Yes, this has been mentioned a lot. But can you show me anywhere in the OT where the average Jew knew of Christ dying for sins like we do? If that were the case that they were looking forward to the cross and knew it then show me where that was their message to the lost and dying. I showed you where Christ spoke of it and his own disciples didn’t have a clue.

3. I agree – we know that now but they didn’t in the OT – it was hid from them. Not until Paul came along and got the revelation directly from Christ himself that we know of Calvary like we do. Just search the phrases and words, “my gospelâ€Â, “to meâ€Â, “unto me†and “hid†in Paul’s epistles and you tell me what that says to you.

My purpose here – I desire folks to see the uniqueness and difference in our message as compared with the OT. I desire for folks to see the uniqueness of the body of Christ and the privileges that we have that Israel and those before the cross didn’t have.

Question – what was the message to the average Jew prior to Calvary?

God bless
 
A.V.,
I beleive this article supports that grace was understood, though maybe not like the greater revelation of the New Testament.
Beza

"Many Bible Teachers have a misunderstanding of how the believers in the Old Testament responded to God. You will read and hear many say that the New Testament idea of grace or mercy was not understood by the Jews. Instead, it is said, the Old Testament believers felt they were justified by their good works and so did not understand the grace of God as revealed by Jesus and the New Testament writers. Unfortunately, this idea is widespread among Bible Teachers and Preachers. I believe one of the reasons for this is many Bible Teachers spend most of their time in the New Testament and so only have a limited understanding of the Old Testament concepts. It is true that believers in the Old Testament were under the law while believers after Christ’s resurrection are under grace. But there are many examples of Old Testament believers who understood that fulfilling the rituals of the law was not the same thing as receiving the mercy of God. Here are some examples:
1 Samuel 15:22, "Then Samuel said: ‘Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed than the fat of rams.’ "

Proverbs 21:3, "To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice."

Amos 5:21-24, "I hate, I despise your feast days, and I do not savor your sacred assemblies. Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings, I will not accept them, nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings. Take away from Me the noise of your songs, for I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments. But let justice run down like water, and righteousness like a mighty stream."

Ecclesiastes 5:1, "Walk prudently when you go to the house of God; and draw near to hear rather than to give the sacrifice of fools, for they do not know that they do evil."

Hosea 6:6, "For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."

Psalm 40:5-8, "Many, O Lord my God, are Your wonderful works which You have done; and Your thoughts toward us cannot be recounted to You in order; if I would declare and speak of them, they are more than can be numbered. Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; my ears You have opened; burnt offering and sin offering You did not require. Then I said, ‘Behold, I come; in the scroll of the book it is written of me. I delight to do Your will, O my God, and Your law is within my heart.’ "

Psalm 103:10-17, "He has not dealt with us according to our sins, nor punished us according to our iniquities. For as the heavens are high above the earth, so great is His mercy toward those who fear Him; As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us. As a father pities his children, so the Lord pities those who fear Him. For He knows our frame; he remembers that we are dust. As for man, his days are like grass; as a flower of the field, so he flourishes. For the wind passes over it, and it is gone, and its place remembers it no more. But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear Him, and His righteousness to children's children."

Psalm 51:16-17, "For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it; you do not delight in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and a contrite heart – these, O God, You will not despise."

To further examine the Old Testament concept of mercy, I would like to quote from the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. The writer is explaining how the Old Testament Jew understood God’s mercy.

"...on God’s side ‘mercy’ particularly comes to denote grace. God’s ‘mercy’ too, rests on the ‘covenant’ by which He has freely bound himself to the people, so that the righteous can appeal to God’s ‘mercy.’ ...God’s ‘mercy’ always means His faithful and merciful help.... We must always remember, however, that it is the ‘mercy’ which God has promised, so that although one cannot claim it, one may certainly expect it. In other words, the thought of ‘mercy’ and the thought of the covenant belong together. Yet to the degree that man is unfaithful, the ‘mercy’ for which he hopes takes on the character of pardoning grace."

After reading this explanation and all the quotes from the Old Testament scriptures given above, we see a real understanding of mercy. To me this sounds like a New Testament view of God’s grace, and we find the Old Testament Jews held this same view!"

Footnotes:

This study on How Old Testament Believers Understood God’s Mercy © 1998 by David Humpal. All Rights Reserved.

All scriptures unless otherwise noted are from the New King James Version © 1984, Thomas Nelson Publishers

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, vol. 2, pg. 479-480 © 1964, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company

The Hebrew words for ‘mercy’ and ‘covenant’ were used in the text, but I have substituted the English word with quotes around it.
 
beza said:
A.V.,
I beleive this article supports that grace was understood, though maybe not like the greater revelation of the New Testament. Beza .
Nice article Beza - thanks - but nowhere does it deal with the fact that the average Jew knew nothing of Calvary and the Lord Jesus Christ.

They knew of a prophesied messiah that would deliver them. When the "lowly Galilean" showed up on a ass they got a bit confused. They were expecting deliverance and redemption was hinted at but.... Calvary? They knew nothing of Calvary.

Again - what are your thoughts on Luke Lukek 18:32-34? If Calvary as known about then don't you think they would have known about it?

Was I Cor. 15:1-5 preached in the Gospels or in the OT (again hinted at in Isa. 53)?

God bless
 
I disagree with the posts in here, but I won't waste my time getting into what will inevitably be a fruitless argument (hard to dissuade people from what they've been taught for years, no offense).

But anyway, we are under the assumption that the gospel only includes the death, burial and resurrection of Messiah.

Don't get me wrong, that is the key element, but it is not true understanding of what it is. Consider these passages:

Galatians 3:8 And the Scripture foreseeing that YHWH would justify the nations by faith, preached the gospel before to Abraham: "All the nations will be blessed in you."

Say what? The gospel was preached to Abraham when Yahweh said "in you shall nations of the earth be blessed"???

Hebrews 4:2 For, indeed, we have had the gospel preached to us, even as they also; but the Word did not profit those hearing it, not having been mixed with faith in the ones who heard.

If we look a few verses before this in the previous chapter (3:17), we see that those in the wilderness (Israel when they were brought out of Egypt) qualifies the "they also" here in this verse above.

The gospel was preached to Israel?

Luke 4:17 And the scroll of Isaiah the prophet was handed to Him. And unrolling the book, He found the place where it was written:
Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of YHWH is upon Me. Because of this He anointed Me to proclaim the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me" to heal the brokenhearted, "to proclaim remission to captives, and to the blind to see again," to send away the ones being crushed, in remission,
Luke 4:19 "to preach an acceptable year of YHWH."

Here Messiah quotes the LXX (or the Hebrew that the LXX was translated from) about preaching the gospel (he's reading what we would call Isaiah "61:1-2") What is he going around preaching?

That he died and rose again the third day for sins?

No. He makes it clear. A clear understanding of the prophets and the whole theme of scripture will reveal to us what the gospel is and how Messiah is the major part in it. All throughout the prophets is mention of a Savior and Redeemer and Deliverer of Israel known as the Messiah. He was supposed to restore Israel and unite both divided houses and deliverer the "captives/exiles". Check Isaiah 11:11-13, Isaiah 49:5-6, Ezekiel 37:16-28, and Hosea 1:11 for a few references.

The gospel is the restoration of Israel (also see Acts 1:6-8) and the deliverance of Israel's (mostly divorced Ephraim Israel; see Jeremiah 3:8 and Ezekiel 22:15 for a couple references) seed scattered and held prisoner throughout the nations and in the fulness of the nations (Genesis 48:19; Romans 11:25).

Messiah said he came for the lost sheep of Israel alone (Matthew 15:24).

By biblical, prophetic definition, if Yahshua did not come to deliver Israel and regather her exiles, then undoubtedly he is not the Messiah.

How does this tie in with the scripture about Abraham being preached the gospel, for example, and the rest of the New Testament? Abraham's promised seed (Israel) was going to be mixed and blessed with the rest of the nations, him becoming "father of many nations" with Israelite seed filling the globe (though you may not know it, there is possibly about 3-4 billion Israelites in the world that all look and act like pagan gentiles...amd you just may be and probably are one of them; but it doesn't matter, of course, if you are not redeemed through Messiah or know his true teaching and message).

In the hint understanding however, the "seed" of Abraham is also Messiah (as revealed by Paul in Galatians 3:16), and because of Messiah, the world being filled with Israelites (the "gentiles" of the New Testament; this can be proven if asked) received atonement by his blood. Divorced Israel had to be forgiven. The New Covenant to reconcile both houses of Israel (Jeremiah 31:31) has to be sealed in blood, as with the first one made at the foot of Sinai.

Messiah's blood alone could have accomplished this. For what reason? Because Yahweh had to become man so he could die to make the old covenant of no effect (not the contents) because he was the author of the Old Covenant (check Hebrews 9:16) and because Israel had fault, and also because according to Yahweh's own Torah, a man cannot remarry a wife that he divorced if she becomes defiled (like Israel did; check Jeremiah 3:1 and Deuteronomy 24:1-4 for insights concerning a man divorcing his wife and how it relates to Yahweh). Israel was Yahweh's wife. The only way to release Israel from the law of a husband (spoken of by Paul in Romans 7:1-4) was to have the husband die (which he did in the person and flesh of Yahshua).

Yahweh wanted Israel back (see the divorce also in Hosea 2:1-2 and the prophesied redemption and return in Hosea 2:16-20), and by Messiah's own declaration that a man cannot divorce a wife in order to marry another (Matthew 5:32), we know that Israel remains Yahweh's people and bride in his heart, and that he did not marry gentiles.

What's going on in the New Testament is the regathering of gentiles (who are, according to the scripture, Israelte exiles living as gentiles, although this is a mystery revealed only by revelation, but it can be proven and seen with overwhelming evidence in the New Testament) by the ministry of the apostles, including Paul.

Paul was not searching for pagans and non-Jews and non-Israelites. He was an apostle to the nations (not to the pagans in the nations) to find and preach and proclaim liberty (from exile, not from Torah) to the scattered seed of Israel by the grace given to them by the atonement of Messiah, allowing them to return to the sheep fold (Paul's letters, such as Galations were against certain heretic Jews and other false masters that tried to enslave Ephraim and deny them their liberty by using them as boast tools, such as is found in Galatians 6:13, and to treat them as unequal salvation heirs in Israel by saying they were still unclean and not saved or justified until they had kept Torah along with their own human dogma; Paul was not preaching against Torah in Galatians, or Colossians or Romans or Corinthians or any letter for that matter). This is the reason for Messiah's death. He did not give grace to oppose Torah or as opposed to Torah (as many teach). He gave it for the reasons above, according to scripture.

I am not saying true pagans cannot be saved. Far from it. Just the opposite. Messiah was also given for a "light/beacon" to the non-Israelite nations (Isaiah 49:6), but that call is for them to join Israel. In the return of Ephraim Israel, all the rest of the world is called to salvation and blessings as Israel, justified and redeemed from all past deeds as sinners and pagans.

This is the gospel. The restoration of both houses of Israel and the kingdom of Israel under David, the King (which is why it is also called the "gospel of the kingdom").

Teaching the gospel to all nations as Messiah commanded is not to go looking for pagan sinners of different religions (many evangelist are in error going to pagan countries and places specifically looking for those who are pagans so as to convert them to Christianity). It is to go out into the nations and find scattered Israel in Israelite nations and in all other nations, at the same time, calling whoever hears the gospel by the light shown by redeemed, Torah-honoring Israelite men. The gospel preached today is nothing but a "my religion is better than yours, so believe in Jesus or go to hell" message by many evangelist and those who call themselves "prophets" and "pastors".

Why would Messiah tell his disciples to go preach to pagans who would have no knowledge of Messiah and wouldn't care about Hebrew prophecy concerning atonement? Foolish. "Jesus died for your sins" means nothing to a Hindu or some other pagan. And how some of these false, self-proclaimed evangelists "win souls" is by threatening them with hell, or promising them the usual stuff taught in the pulpit (joy, peace, a job, money, miracles, or bribing them with food and money and other nonsense taken out of context that has nothing to do with the bible).

Anyway, aw man, I could continue forever. I could write a book, I suppose (lol), but I'll leave whoever reads this with this little insight. Be open-minded. Pray to Yahweh for truth. We all should.

But anyway, 1 Corinthians 15:1-5 is still true. It's just that there is more to it. Also, his resurrection is important by reason for our hope in resurrection, as Paul also states here. It is also, I believe, the sign of the New Covenant. Every covenant has a sign. Abraham's was circumcision, the one with Noah and all flesh was the bow, the one for the covenant at Sinai was the sabbath, etc...

The sign for the New Covenant in Messiah's blood is his resurrection.
 
Hello!

For after that in the wisdom of God [this wisdom is now a ministry of death-- 2 Corinthians 3:7] the world by wisdom knew not God [ this wisdom now blinds the minds of believers-- 1 Corinthians 1:20-22] it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching [predestined wisdom=Grace] to save them that believe.

Paul came with a wisdom that saves believers [to save believers from what?...the law] that the Jew or no Rabi knew anything about. 1 Corinthians 1:21

"...we speak wisdom among them that are perfect [the elected]: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world [the teachers of the Law], that come to nought:

Howbeit we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory [a predestined wisdom for those who are Groing inGrace]:

Which none of the princes of this world [the teachers of the Law] knew: for had they known it [the teachers of the Law], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." 1 Corinthians 2:6-8

Note:
where you see ' The Teachers of the Law ' it should read = Chief Priests and Elders, Caiaphas the high priest and scribes.

Paul was the first to receive this knowledge:

"...for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first [Paul was the first] Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern [as an example to follow] to them which should hereafter believe [the elected]on him to life everlasting.

The Law was in effect on the days our Lord walked the earth.

"...one came and said unto him...what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept [did he? only Jesus has done this] from my youth up: what lack I yet?

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect [only the Elect are now perfect], go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. [Jesus relly made it harder on him] Matthew 19:16-22

No Body could be born again before the Cross. Jesus made it hard on Nicodemus too when our Lord told him that he had to be born again.

Jesus on the days of His flesh could forgive sin but He could not take out of the world, for he had to die first.


U R Blessed

Xicali
 
xicali said:
Hello!

Hello! One problem. You equate all references like the "princes of the world" to those who teach Torah, although that is not the context. That thought inserted and superimposed into the Corinthians and many other scriptures is based upon already preconceived notions taught by the majority of Christianity.

No Body could be born again before the Cross. Jesus made it hard on Nicodemus too when our Lord told him that he had to be born again.

This is wrong. And I'll tell you why. Yahshua asked him a question that meant he should have already known this:

John 3:10 Yahshua answered and said to him, You are the teacher of Israel, and you do not know these things?

Men were always supposed to be circumcised in the heart, and born again through the Spirit of Yahweh (see Deuteronomy 10:16).

The Spirit was not introduced in the New Testament, despite how many "pastors" teach that and interpret the scripture as so.
 
wavy said:
I disagree with the posts in here, but I won't waste my time getting into what will inevitably be a fruitless argument (hard to dissuade people from what they've been taught for years, no offense).

Please define (from scripturee) what the term gospel means then...

Just show me where the word gospel throughout scripture always means the death, burial, and resurrection.

Thank you
 
beza said:
A.V.,
Jesus is th Lamb slained before the foundation of the earth (Re.13:8, 17:8). It has always been about the Cross and grace, those before calvary, looked ahead (Simeon and Anna), those of us after the Cross, look back. Every thing in the Old Testament (in regards to salvation) was a shadow of the substance that is Christ in the New Testament.
Beza

******
Good post savoy! :fadein: See Genesis 3:15.
Cain blew it in Genesis 4:7, but the ones of Hebrews 11:13
had all died [in the faith]. It was then, a finished belief! This included [all] in life from Adam on.. . Acts 4:12 is no new thing!

---John
 
John the Baptist said:
but the ones of Hebrews 11:13
had all died [in the faith]. It was then, a finished belief! This included [all] in life from Adam on.. . Acts 4:12 is no new thing!
OK - yes, they had a "faith" but what was that faith in? Show me where they knew about Calvary -

Folks - I know there was faith and salvation in the OT. But faith in what and whose faith?

Nobody on this forum has yet to show me where these saints knew and understood the finished work of Calvary.

What did those Hebrew saints in Heb. 11 believe to be "saved"?

God bless
 
AVBunyan said:
John the Baptist said:
but the ones of Hebrews 11:13
had all died [in the faith]. It was then, a finished belief! This included [all] in life from Adam on.. . Acts 4:12 is no new thing!
OK - yes, they had a "faith" but what was that faith in? Show me where they knew about Calvary -

Folks - I know there was faith and salvation in the OT. But faith in what and whose faith?

Nobody on this forum has yet to show me where these saints knew and understood the finished work of Calvary.

What did those Hebrew saints in Heb. 11 believe to be "saved"?

God bless

****
Hi, John here:
Are you familiar with the Sanctuary in the O.T.? God states in Psalms 77:13 that His way is in the Sanctuary.
Christ was always the 'center' of Salvation! The Gospel is called the 'Everlasting Gospel'. Revelation 14:6 Even when the old world was destroyed by the flood, the very first thing that Noah did upon leaving the Ark, was offer the lamb sacrifice.

And that was well before the Jewish nation came on the scene. Are you familiar with the rebellion in heaven? Even then the Everlasting Gospel is seen there by Christ's Word. When Christ died He made the way into he Most Holy place in heaven. Remember that the vail went rent from top to bottom making the way into the Most Holy place.

Anyway, one can do a study & find the Royal Ark of God in the Most Holy place. And for your question? What is, was, & always has been over the Heavenly Ark that had the Godheads Eternal Covenant (Hebrews 13:20) inside of it? It was the THE MERCY SEAT! Check out Revelation 11:19 & Revelation 22:9-10, even the angels in heaven understand the earthly sanctuary pattern!

The sanctuary on earth was given that the Jews could know what life was all about. This all pointed to the Christ on the cross. That was the purpose of the Laws of Moses. See Galateans 3:19

In closing this out for now?? See Acts 7:37-39 for who it was that was in the church in the wilderness! And verse 39?? Surely it seems that most still did not understand the plan of salvation, as you say, even back then!
They had all of this study, and so do we.. we even have it in hindsight & all written down and most still today do not understand the Everlasting Gospel of Christ. :crying:
 
AVBunyan said:
Please define (from scripturee) what the term gospel means then...

What it means has little to do with what it is about. The Hebrew word is besorah, and means "good news/glad tidings".

Just show me where the word gospel throughout scripture always means the death, burial, and resurrection.

I can't. Because it does not.
 
wavy said:
AVBunyan said:
Please define (from scripturee) what the term gospel means then...

What it means has little to do with what it is about. The Hebrew word is besorah, and means "good news/glad tidings".

Just show me where the word gospel throughout scripture always means the death, burial, and resurrection.

I can't. Because it does not.
You are right Wavy - gospel means "good tidings" - One can get that by comparing....

Isa 61:1 The spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

and...

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Didn't have to go to Greek or Hebrew -

The conext of the verses determines what those good tidings are at that moment - for us today it is I Cor. 15:1-5. Pior to Calvary it was different.

God bless
 
AVBunyan said:
Didn't have to go to Greek or Hebrew -

That's what I was basing it off of though: Isaiah 61:1. The word there for "good tidings" is besorah. I had Isaiah in my head when I defined "gospel" but forgot to mention that that's the Hebrew I was referring to.

The conext of the verses determines what those good tidings are at that moment - for us today it is I Cor. 15:1-5. Pior to Calvary it was different.

The gospel is the same forever. It never changed. Messiah was quoting Isaiah 61 in Luke 4 because it IS the same thing:

Luke 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

He was saying that he was going to fulfill that scripture, therefore it has to be talking about the same thing. It is Yahshua talking in Isaiah 61:1. The context is restoration, which is what Messiah came to do and he makes it clear by quoting it in Luke 4:18-20.

The gospel was always physical multiplcity and the regathering of the exiles. How that is accomplished is mentioned in 1 Cor 15:1-5. He specifially mentioned it as the 'first', not the only thing he declared to them But he specifically mentions the death and resurrection because according 1 Cor 15:12, the people were saying there was no resurrection.

The gospel has always been the same.
 
wavy said:
The gospel is the same forever.
Wavy - if you were Jew in the OT what would you message of "salvation" be to a fellow Jew?

If you were Jew in the Gospels what would you message of "salvation" be to a fellow Jew?

What is your message of "salvation" today to the sinner?

God bless 8-)
 
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