The Heresy of Sinless Perfection as Held by Some Here

[Iconoclast]

There is a false teaching that has infected some here and on other boards. here are some scriptural vaccines against it.
from TGC Australia edition;
How can a heresy be ‘godly’? In short, it can’t. Godliness is about conformity to sound doctrine (Titus 2:1). However, most cases of (reasonably convincing) false teaching will consist of biblical truths that have been skewed in some way. The ingredients are good, but the recipe is incomplete or else has had unwelcome things added, and the result is a theological and practical mess.

Sinless Perfectionism is a doctrine like that. In short, it holds that it is possible for Christians to completely defeat sin in the present life and to live holy lives like Jesus did. At a glance, it makes a lot of sense. Jesus came to save us from sin. He died for our sins on the cross and he sent his Holy Spirit to empower his people to overcome sin and to live obedient, righteous lives in the present (Titus 2:11-14). Christians should have the highest aspirations for living holy lives and rejecting all sin.

Sinless Perfectionism is Unbiblical​

However, the Bible also says that ‘If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us’ (1 John 1:8). It speaks of the fact that until the resurrection we must be at war with sinful desires (Galatians 5:16-17). Sin is not an enemy ‘out there’. It’s an enemy within that lives and feeds off our fallen human desires and weaknesses (James 1:13-15). That is why sinless perfectionism is not only untrue but also dangerous. People don’t tend to win battles that they don’t even realise they are supposed to be fighting.

Sinless perfectionism is not only untrue but also dangerous. People don’t tend to win battles that they don’t even realise they are supposed to be fighting.

There is a much-repeated (but possibly untrue) story about the 19th century Baptist preacher C.H. Spurgeon in which he debunked perfectionism in a memorable way.[1]

Spurgeon was at a conference where a preacher taught perfectionism in an outspoken manner and even claimed to have reached a state of sinless perfection himself. Spurgeon didn’t challenge him on the spot. Instead, the next morning he poured a pitcher of milk over the man’s head, to which the ‘perfectionist’ responded with the kind of rage and hostility that you’d expect from any sinner. Perfectionism debunked.

We like this story. It’s funny to hear of false teaching being exposed in an amusing way. But I suspect that our reaction is far too smug. It betrays an attitude of self-assurance at precisely the point where we should feel our greatest need. It demonstrates a disturbing lack of concern about the fact that we sin and that our sin is deeply offensive to God. When we remember this then it’s impossible to gleefully say in our hearts: “you stupid perfectionists—of course we all sin!” Are we pleased with the situation? Have we forgotten what sin is? Even though we know that it’s false, shouldn’t we wish that sinless perfectionism were true? Don’t you long to be free of sin?

Spiritual Complacency is Unbiblical Too​

If there is an equal and opposite error to sinless perfectionism then it is the sin of spiritual complacency. It’s shrugging your shoulders at sin’s inevitability. It’s acceptance that sin is just part of life, and I’m OK with that. It’s responding to occasions of sin by almost justifying it with glib lines like: “we know that we all sin.” That is a ghastly attitude for a Christian to have and it needs to be challenged.

If there is an equal and opposite error to sinless perfectionism then it’s shrugging your shoulders at sin’s inevitability—sin is just part of life, and I’m OK with that.

It is easy for me to criticise sinless perfectionism because I don’t personally know any Christians who struggle with this doctrine. However, I dare say that I know an entire evangelical culture that is complacent about sin. We’ve forgotten that sin is ugly and grotesque; the complete opposite to righteousness. We’ve forgotten that God’s will for our lives is that we be holy (1 Thessalonians 4:3). We’ve forgotten that what Christians look forward to above all else is Jesus returning to take away our sin completely. We’ve forgotten that anyone who truly desires that day to come will be obsessed with living a holy life now (1 John 3:2-3).

Jesus taught that Christians would ‘hunger and thirst’ after righteousness (Matthew 5:6). Imagine a man who has been deprived of food and water for far too long. Hunger and thirst are not just a thought in his head, but all-encompassing desires that cannot be ignored. His whole body cries out for sustenance! He will never – can never – be satisfied until his desire is satiated. Is our hunger for righteousness like that? That’s what perfectionism (at its best) gets right. It desires to be without sin. That is a profoundly godly ambition, and one that all Christians should share. We recognise that we will inevitably fall short. But we are not happy about it.

Come Lord Jesus!

 

[Iconoclast]

From Bible Reasons;

Sinless Perfectionism​

Fritz Chery Nov 14, 2023 Blog0 comments
In this article, we will be discussing the heresy of sinless perfectionism. It is impossible to be sinless at any time on our Christian walk of faith. Who could claim to be perfect when we look at what God calls perfection? We are trapped in unreedemed flesh and when we compare ourselves to the perfect Christ we fall flat on our face.

When we look to the holiness of God and what is required of us we are without hope. However, thank God that hope does not come from us. Our hope is in Christ alone.

Jesus taught us to confess our sins daily. ​

Matthew 6:9-12 “Pray, then, in this way: ‘Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. ‘Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. ‘Give us this day our daily bread. ‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.”
When we say that we have no sin we make God a liar.
1 John is a chapter written clearly for believers. When we read 1 John in context, we see that one of the aspects of walking in the light is confessing our sin. When I hear people say that they don’t remember the last time that they sinned and that they are currently living perfectly, that is a lie. We deceive ourselves when we make such claims. Confessing your sins is one of the evidences that you are saved. You can never hide sin in His light.
A person with a genuine relationship with their father is going to confess their faults. The Holy Spirit is going to convict us of sin and if He’s not, that is evidence of false conversion. If God is not treating you as His child, then that is evidence that you are not His. Having unconfessed sin blocks God from listening to you. It’s dangerous to claim to be without sin.
Psalm 19:12 teaches us to confess even our unknown sins. One second of an impure ungodly thought is sin. Worry in sin. Not working 100% fully for the Lord at your job is sin. Sin is missing the mark. No one can do what is required. I know I can’t! I fall short daily, but I don’t live in condemnation. I look to Christ and it gives me joy. All I have is Jesus. I’m trusting in His perfection on my behalf. Our sinfulness makes Christ blood on the cross so much more meaningful and precious.
1 John 1:7-10 “but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.”
Psalm 66:18 “If I had not confessed the sin in my heart, the Lord would not have listened.”

We are not perfect​

The Bible says to “be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.” If there is any truth in you, then you are going to admit that you and I are not perfect. “Many are going to say, “why would God command us to do something that we can’t do?” It’s simple, God is the standard and not man. When you start with man you have problems but when you start with God, then you begin to see how holy He is and how desperately you need a Savior.
Everything in this life belongs to Him. Not one single drop of imperfection shall enter into His presence. All we have is the perfection of Christ. Even as a believer I’ve never been perfect. Am I a new creation? Yes! Do I have new desires for Christ and His Word? Yes! Do I hate sin? Yes! Do I strive for perfection? Yes! Am I living in sin? No, but daily I fall so short just like all believers do.
I can be selfish, I don’t do all things for God’s glory, I don’t pray without ceasing, I get distracted in worship, I’ve never loved God with absolutely everything in me, I worry sometimes, I can be covetous in my mind. Just today I accidentally ran a stop sign. This is a sin because I wasn’t obeying the law. There is always going to be something to confess in prayer. Do you not understand the holiness of God? I don’t believe sinless perfectionists do.
Romans 3:10-12 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
Psalm 143:2 “Do not bring your servant into judgment, for no one living is righteous before you.”
Ecclesiastes 7:20 “Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.”
Proverbs 20:9 “Who can say, “I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin?”
Psalm 51:5 “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.”
Godly Christians know their sinfulness.
The godliest men in Scripture all had one thing in common. They knew their great need for a Savior. Paul and Peter were close to the light of Christ and when you get closer to the light of Christ you see more sin. Many believers are not getting closer to the light of Christ so they are not seeing their own sinfulness. Paul called himself a “chief of sinners.” He didn’t say I was a chief of sinners. He emphasized his sinfulness because he understood his sinfulness in the light of Christ.
1 Timothy 1:15 “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.”
Luke 5:8 “When Simon Peter saw this, he fell at Jesus’ knees and said, “Go away from me, Lord; I am a sinful man!”

Romans 7 destroys sinless perfectionism.​

In Romans 7 we notice Paul talking about his struggles as a believer. Many people are going to say, “he was talking about his past life,” but that is wrong. Here is why it’s wrong. The Bible says unbelievers are a slave to sin, dead in sin, blinded by Satan, they can’t understand the things of God, they are haters of God, they don’t seek God, etc.
If Paul is talking about his past life why does he desire to do what is good? Verse 19 says, “For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.” Unbelievers don’t desire to do good. They don’t seek after the things of God. In verse 22 he says, “For I delight in the law of God.” Unbelievers don’t delight in God’s law. In fact, when we read Psalm 1:2; Psalm 119:47; and Psalm 119:16 we see that only believers are delighting in God’s law.
In verse 25 Paul reveals the answer to his struggles. “Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Christ is how we achieve victory over all sin. In verse 25 Paul then goes on to say, “I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.” This shows that he was referring to his current life.
Nonbelievers do not struggle with sin. Only believers battle with sin. 1 Peter 4:12 “Don’t be surprised at the fiery trials you are going through.” As believers although we are a new creation there is a battle against the flesh. We are trapped in our humanness and now the Spirit is waging war against the flesh.
Romans 7:15-25 “For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.”
Galatians 5:16-17 “But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.”

 

[Iconoclast]

pt.2
Sinless perfectionism denies sanctification.
Entire sanctification or Christian perfectionism is a damnable heresy. Once someone is justified by faith in Christ, then comes the sanctification process. God is going to conform the believer into the image of His Son. God is going to work in that believer’s life until death.
If sinless perfectionism is true, then there is no reason for God to work in us and it contradicts various Scriptures. Even Paul addressed believers as carnal Christians. I am not saying a believer will remain carnal, which is not true. A believer will grow, but the fact that he calls believers carnal Christians destroys this false doctrine.
1 Corinthians 3:1-3 “But I, (brothers), could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, 3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?”
2 Peter 3:18 “But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.”
Philippians 1:6 “And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.”
Romans 12:1-2 “I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.”
James says, “we all stumble in many ways.”
James 3 is a good chapter to take a look at. In verse 2 it reads, “we all stumble in many ways.” It doesn’t say some, it doesn’t say only unbelievers, it says, “we all.” There are a million ways to stumble before the holiness of God. I sin before I get out of bed. I wake up and I don’t give God the proper glory that is rightfully His.
James 3:8 says, “no human being can tame the tongue.” None! Many people don’t notice how they sin with their mouth. Engaging in gossip, talking about things of the world, complaining, joking in an ungodly way, making a joke at someone’s expense, making a rude comment, telling a half truth, saying a curse word, etc. These all false short of doing all things for God’s glory, loving God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and loving your neighbor as yourself.
James 3:2 “We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, able to keep their whole body in check.”
James 3:8 “but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.”
Psalm 130:3 “LORD, if you kept a record of our sins, who, O Lord, could ever survive?”
All I have is Christ.
The fact of the matter is, Jesus did not come for those who are righteous. He came for sinners Matthew 9:13. Most sinless perfectionists believe you can lose your salvation. As John Macarthur said, “If you could lose your salvation, you would.” We all fall short of God’s standard. Can anyone love God perfectly with everything in them 24/7? I’ve never been able to do this and if you are honest, you have never been able to do this as well.
We always talk about the outward sins, but how about the sins of the heart? Who wants to live like that? “Oh no I accidentally ran a stop sign I lost my salvation.” It really is stupid and it’s a deception from Satan. There are some people that are going to say, “you’re leading people to sin.” Nowhere in this article did I tell someone to sin. I said we struggle with sin. When you become saved you are no longer a slave to sin, dead in sin, and now you have the power to overcome sin. Evidence of your faith in Christ is that you will be new. Your life will reveal a change. You will put off the old life, but once again we are still trapped in our humanness. There is going to be a struggle. There is going to be a battle.
When we see passages such as 1 John 3:8-10; 1 John 3:6; and 1 John 5:18 that say people born of God will not keep on sinning, it’s not saying you won’t ever sin which contradicts the beginning of John. It’s referring to a lifestyle. It’s referring to those who use grace as an excuse to sin. It’s referring to the continual pursuing and practice of sin. Only fake Christians live in willful sin and worldliness. Fake Christians don’t want to change and they are not new creations. They will probably cry because they got caught, but that is it. They have worldly sorrow and not godly sorrow. They don’t seek help.
Believers struggle! There are times when we will weep over our sins. We want to be more for Christ. This is a mark of a genuine believer. Matthew 5:4-6 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.”
However, for the most part believers can take comfort that we have a Savior, we have a risen King, we have Jesus who fully satisfied God’s wrath on the cross. Instead of looking at yourself look to Christ. What a privilege and what a blessing to know that my salvation is not dependent on me.
I’m trusting in the perfect merit of Jesus Christ and that is enough. Every day when I confess my sins I am more thankful of His blood. As I grow in Christ the Lord’s grace and His blood becomes more and more real. Romans 7:25 NLT “Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord.”
1 John 2:1 “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. (But) if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father–Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.”

 

[Iconoclast]

Ligonier​

The Struggle With Sin​

Romans 7:13–25


ROMANS 7:13–25
"I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do" (v. 15).
Although the Methodist revival produced much good fruit in the eighteenth century, there was one aspect of the teaching of John Wesley that was very unfortunate and that led to evil fruit. That was his doctrine of sinless perfection. Wesley taught that it was possible for a believer to become so sanctified that he could become perfect in this life—though he never made any such claim for himself.
Out of this Wesleyan error sprang various "holiness" groups, often associated with old-line Pentecostalism. In his rewarding but sobering book Holiness: The False and the True, H. A. Ironside delineates the sad effects of this doctrine. Basically, it causes a seared conscience, because people are told that as a result of a "second blessing" they are now perfect and are not to examine themselves. They become hardened to sin.
The apostle Paul had no such teaching. In Romans 7, he describes his own struggle in the Christian life, and he writes this as an example for us. He points out that within himself there were desires for righteousness, but also dark desires for sin. Indeed, when he least suspected it, the lust for sin raised its ugly head, and he fell. His ultimate and true self was renewed in Christ and hated these sins, yet again and again he fell into them.
There is no quick-and-easy answer to this struggle. Indeed, we shall struggle with sin all our lives. As images of the infinite God, we are very profound and complex beings, and sin effects us in ways we are not even able as yet to recognize.
Thus, the struggle will go on, but there are ways to fight sin. Paul says that "in my inner being I delight in God's law" (Romans 7:22). The way to grow in strength against sin is to feed our relationship with Christ while starving our desires for sin. We starve our desires for sin by repenting and refusing to sin (an act of our wills assisted by the Spirit), thereby building resistance. We feed our relationship with Christ by studying the Bible, filling our minds with biblical truth through prayer, and spending time with the three persons of our God. It is when we look outside ourselves and our depravity that we find hope—when we focus on our Savior (Romans 7:24–25).

 

[Iconoclast]

The Error of Christian Perfectionism​

Mar 17, 2009 | Perspectives
Christian Perfectionism- Introduction
Some people actually claim that they have reached a state in the Christian life where they just don’t sin anymore. Wait a minute, doesn’t the Bible say that if we actually think something like this we are deceiving ourselves and are, in fact, calling God a liar?
Christian Perfectionism- Not Biblical
Christian perfectionism is not biblical doctrine. 1 John 1:8 clearly states: “If we claim to be without sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.” While willful sin ought not to characterize our life, sin will remain a part of human experience until we lay aside our physical body at death (Rom. 7). In fact, the wisest man who ever lived (Solomon) said: “Who can say, I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin?”
Christian Perfectionism- A Narrow Definition of Sin
Many who believe that they have reached sinless perfection actually have a very narrow and limited view of sin. Some actually argue that only deliberate disobedience to God’s will is actually sin. However, this is not the way the Bible describes sin at all. Sin can be committed in thought, word, and deed, and, of course, there are sins of commission as well as omission. To be truly sinless means that you love God with all of your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and, of course, that you love your neighbor as well. To be perfect in a biblical sense means that you mirror the very image of Jesus Christ Himself. This will take place in heaven, but certainly not here on earth.
Christian Perfectionism- Justified, but not Yet Perfect
While the Christian is never intrinsically perfect in this life (or completely sanctified), we have been justified because of the work of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 5:21). So positionally we’re declared righteous (in Christ) though practically we still wrestle with sin. Our confidence, however, is that we are considered perfect in the sight of God because we are united with the Lord Jesus Christ through faith.
Christian Perfectionism- Closeness to God Brings Awareness of Sin
Look at the people in the Bible. When they were really close to God, they didn’t claim to be sinless. Instead, they became increasingly aware of their sin (Isa. 6:5; Dan. 9:4-19; Eph. 3:8). Paul, of course, cried out: “O wretched man that I am.” According to R. C. Sproul, the doctrine of sinless perfection is, in fact, perfect error!
We seek to live holy lives, not to put God in our debt, but merely to demonstrate gratitude for His unmerited love.

 

[Iconoclast]

All these links can be found in less then a 10 minutes search on google.
There is no excuse for a professed christian to hold to such nonsense.

 

[reddogs]

There is a false teaching that has infected some here and on other boards. here are some scriptural vaccines against it.
from TGC Australia edition;
How can a heresy be ‘godly’? In short, it can’t. Godliness is about conformity to sound doctrine (Titus 2:1). However, most cases of (reasonably convincing) false teaching will consist of biblical truths that have been skewed in some way. The ingredients are good, but the recipe is incomplete or else has had unwelcome things added, and the result is a theological and practical mess.

Sinless Perfectionism is a doctrine like that. In short, it holds that it is possible for Christians to completely defeat sin in the present life and to live holy lives like Jesus did. At a glance, it makes a lot of sense. Jesus came to save us from sin. He died for our sins on the cross and he sent his Holy Spirit to empower his people to overcome sin and to live obedient, righteous lives in the present (Titus 2:11-14). Christians should have the highest aspirations for living holy lives and rejecting all sin.

Sinless Perfectionism is Unbiblical​

However, the Bible also says that ‘If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us’ (1 John 1:8). It speaks of the fact that until the resurrection we must be at war with sinful desires (Galatians 5:16-17). Sin is not an enemy ‘out there’. It’s an enemy within that lives and feeds off our fallen human desires and weaknesses (James 1:13-15). That is why sinless perfectionism is not only untrue but also dangerous. People don’t tend to win battles that they don’t even realise they are supposed to be fighting.


There is a much-repeated (but possibly untrue) story about the 19th century Baptist preacher C.H. Spurgeon in which he debunked perfectionism in a memorable way.[1]

Spurgeon was at a conference where a preacher taught perfectionism in an outspoken manner and even claimed to have reached a state of sinless perfection himself. Spurgeon didn’t challenge him on the spot. Instead, the next morning he poured a pitcher of milk over the man’s head, to which the ‘perfectionist’ responded with the kind of rage and hostility that you’d expect from any sinner. Perfectionism debunked.

We like this story. It’s funny to hear of false teaching being exposed in an amusing way. But I suspect that our reaction is far too smug. It betrays an attitude of self-assurance at precisely the point where we should feel our greatest need. It demonstrates a disturbing lack of concern about the fact that we sin and that our sin is deeply offensive to God. When we remember this then it’s impossible to gleefully say in our hearts: “you stupid perfectionists—of course we all sin!” Are we pleased with the situation? Have we forgotten what sin is? Even though we know that it’s false, shouldn’t we wish that sinless perfectionism were true? Don’t you long to be free of sin?

Spiritual Complacency is Unbiblical Too​

If there is an equal and opposite error to sinless perfectionism then it is the sin of spiritual complacency. It’s shrugging your shoulders at sin’s inevitability. It’s acceptance that sin is just part of life, and I’m OK with that. It’s responding to occasions of sin by almost justifying it with glib lines like: “we know that we all sin.” That is a ghastly attitude for a Christian to have and it needs to be challenged.


It is easy for me to criticise sinless perfectionism because I don’t personally know any Christians who struggle with this doctrine. However, I dare say that I know an entire evangelical culture that is complacent about sin. We’ve forgotten that sin is ugly and grotesque; the complete opposite to righteousness. We’ve forgotten that God’s will for our lives is that we be holy (1 Thessalonians 4:3). We’ve forgotten that what Christians look forward to above all else is Jesus returning to take away our sin completely. We’ve forgotten that anyone who truly desires that day to come will be obsessed with living a holy life now (1 John 3:2-3).

Jesus taught that Christians would ‘hunger and thirst’ after righteousness (Matthew 5:6). Imagine a man who has been deprived of food and water for far too long. Hunger and thirst are not just a thought in his head, but all-encompassing desires that cannot be ignored. His whole body cries out for sustenance! He will never – can never – be satisfied until his desire is satiated. Is our hunger for righteousness like that? That’s what perfectionism (at its best) gets right. It desires to be without sin. That is a profoundly godly ambition, and one that all Christians should share. We recognise that we will inevitably fall short. But we are not happy about it.

Come Lord Jesus!

With the robe of Christ righteousness we can come perfect before God, scripture is clear...

 

[Tenchi]

While I have rebutted many times on this site the heresy of sinless perfectionism, I have also had to repeatedly confront moralism on it, too, and deep ignorance concerning Romans 6, Romans 8:1-16 and Galatians 2:20 and the idea that the Christian life is just an inevitable, tight cycle of sin>confession>sin>confession 'til death. Neither of these beliefs about Christian living are biblical. Sin can be the rare exception rather than the rule in the life of a believer, as the Bible indicates, though sinless perfection in practical living is out of reach. Too often, the declaration that "No one is perfect" is just a way of creating margins for sin in one's life, excusing it and allowing for it because it is, after all, inevitable. To this sort of low thinking I would cite the apostle Paul:

Romans 6:1-7
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

Colossians 3:1-10
1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
5 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.
6 For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,
7 and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them.
8 But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth.
9 Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,
10 and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him—

 

[Iconoclast]

With the robe of Christ righteousness we can come perfect before God, scripture is clear...

No one denies we are positional perfect right now, but we are in a non glorified body that sins quite often. In heaven we will not be able to sin.here on earth we sin .That is why we are commanded to mortify, or put to death sin In romans8, and col.3

 

[Iconoclast]

While I have rebutted many times on this site the heresy of sinless perfectionism, I have also had to repeatedly confront moralism on it, too, and deep ignorance concerning Romans 6, Romans 8:1-16 and Galatians 2:20 and the idea that the Christian life is just an inevitable, tight cycle of sin>confession>sin>confession 'til death. Neither of these beliefs about Christian living are biblical. Sin can be the rare exception rather than the rule in the life of a believer, as the Bible indicates, though sinless perfection in practical living is out of reach. Too often, the declaration that "No one is perfect" is just a way of creating margins for sin in one's life, excusing it and allowing for it because it is, after all, inevitable. To this sort of low thinking I would cite the apostle Paul:

Romans 6:1-7
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

Colossians 3:1-10
1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
5 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.
6 For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,
7 and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them.
8 But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth.
9 Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,
10 and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him—

Agreed, and well said. The reigning power of sin has been broken, we no longer habitually sin, like a drunkard, or a talebearer. But we still have much capacity for sin, especially in the realm of sins of omission.

 

[jasonc]

We have one that believes this and posts here .

 

[hawkman]

Hey brother Iconoclast I hope you are doing well .

Out of this Wesleyan error sprang various "holiness" groups, often associated with old-line Pentecostalism.

Yes indeed holiness groups sprang forth and they would be associated with Pentecostalism .
One such group started in the 1880's in the USA and as a few years went by their group grew and they moved out of a home into a borrowed school house for their services, during a revival the gift of tongues was in evidence even among the children . The group had already decided holiness was something that was very much needed and that "error" was then heard about in the established churches of their area . Then pressure came to bear on the local school officials and they forbid the church from using the school house anymore . So back to a members home for services the holiness church went until they had enough wherewithal to build a church on donated property .
But the holiness church's "error" was such a problem that members of the community would try to burn down the new holiness church and even use dynamite to try to stop this church of holiness . Holiness church members homes were burned down .
The community members finally got a large group together and since they did not think it a proper thing to burn the holiness church down where it stood they took it apart log by log and piled it up and then burned it front of the holiness church members .
Today this holiness church has millions of members and thousands of church's worldwide .

 

[jasonc]

Hey brother Iconoclast I hope you are doing well .

Yes indeed holiness groups sprang forth and they would be associated with Pentecostalism .
One such group started in the 1880's in the USA and as a few years went by their group grew and they moved out of a home into a borrowed school house for their services, during a revival the gift of tongues was in evidence even among the children . The group had already decided holiness was something that was very much needed and that "error" was then heard about in the established churches of their area . Then pressure came to bear on the local school officials and they forbid the church from using the school house anymore . So back to a members home for services the holiness church went until they had enough wherewithal to build a church on donated property .
But the holiness church's "error" was such a problem that members of the community would try to burn down the new holiness church and even use dynamite to try to stop this church of holiness . Holiness church members homes were burned down .
The community members finally got a large group together and since they did not think it a proper thing to burn the holiness church down where it stood they took it apart log by log and piled it up and then burned it front of the holiness church members .
Today this holiness church has millions of members and thousands of church's worldwide .

Holiness as In sinless perfection.

You can't be that way ,local black communities often here have that type of church .never really grows . I have a photo of two of the one hundred years old one .

Yes pentacostilsm holiness types have that sinless perfection .I believe I pass one often let's see

 

[hawkman]

Yes pentacostilsm holiness types have that sinless perfection .

I am Pentecostal and I believe in holiness and we should all strive for perfection , but will we get to perfection in this life , the odds are certainty not in our favor I would say . But the possibility exists no matter how slight because of these verses , IMO .

Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Mark 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Luke 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

 

[reddogs]

No one denies we are positional perfect right now, but we are in a non glorified body that sins quite often. In heaven we will not be able to sin.here on earth we sin .That is why we are commanded to mortify, or put to death sin In romans8, and col.3

But Christ will set aside those who still hold on to iniquity, and they clearly will loose the gift He had for them, eternal life.

 

[jasonc]

You could then brag that I made myself Holy . I'm not ignoring Holiness as something to strive for but no man dies without the need of glorified.thr curse of death is that death is tied to sin .

holyness and sinless means that you won't die .I don't go by church size as that means little about doctrine the heretics up the road have a bigger church then mine .

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
I have not been in this as long as most of you have. But I don't see this. Has someone come out publicly and said they are sinless? That would be a pretty bold statement. Plus, as soon as they made it, they wouldn't be sinless anymore. Because saying that would be a lie.

Being sinless is not even a claim of any the apostles; and they were handpicked men of Jesus. They understood what sin really is and when it starts. This is how Jesus defined when sin begins:

Matthew 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Sin isn't just the act. It is the thought of the act. Who can control their minds to the point of never having a sinful thought? Using myself as an example, I'm a guy. I see a good looking woman in a tight outfit that emphasizes all the parts just so, sometimes I have a less than exemplary thought. Every guy here has to admit the same. The thought is my fleshly reaction. I am alive. I have a sex drive. The sight triggers the thought. I cannot stop the thought. And here we are; I have sinned.
But, from this point further, I can control what I do with the thought.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

(Sidenote: This is one of the reasons I love Paul. I believe he was a sports nut also. He is talking about the ancient Olympic games here. The corruptible crown was made from olive branches. Sorry, this is one of my favorite passages.)

Back to the discussion: The last verse where Paul writes, "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection:" is my focus. Subjection means the state of being under the power, control and government of another. Can I bring my flesh under the control of the new creation that I have become? It turns out, I can! Am I perfect at it? Far from it. I can't completely stop the sin from where it started. I suspect this was Paul's issue as well.

Romans 7:14-17 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Sounds familiar doesn't it.
I do what I don't allow.
I don't do what I want to do.
I do what I hate.
If I do what I don't want to do, I am proving that the Law is good.
Pay very close attention to the last verse. Why is it no longer Paul that is doing the sin? It's his body. But it is no longer his heart.

I thank God Paul wrote this like he did. Paul struggled with sin the same as you and me. But it is no longer our hearts that sin. It's still me in that my flesh is going to have sinful thoughts from time to time. But by bringing my thoughts under control of my new creation, I can stop the thought from becoming an action. My flesh is still guilty of the thought, and I have to own it. I still need to pray and ask for forgiveness. But God still has my heart.

So, bottom line, it doesn't matter how others portray themselves on this cite. Know the truth, know yourself, and be honest. I am right there with Paul. I have struggled with sin all my life. It has gotten a little easier over the years. But I have to own what I am. I am a sinner saved by grace through faith in Jesus. It is His job to fix me.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[reddogs]

Hey All,
I have not been in this as long as most of you have. But I don't see this. Has someone come out publicly and said they are sinless? That would be a pretty bold statement. Plus, as soon as they made it, they wouldn't be sinless anymore. Because saying that would be a lie.

Being sinless is not even a claim of any the apostles; and they were handpicked men of Jesus. They understood what sin really is and when it starts. This is how Jesus defined when sin begins:

Matthew 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Sin isn't just the act. It is the thought of the act. Who can control their minds to the point of never having a sinful thought? Using myself as an example, I'm a guy. I see a good looking woman in a tight outfit that emphasizes all the parts just so, sometimes I have a less than exemplary thought. Every guy here has to admit the same. The thought is my fleshly reaction. I am alive. I have a sex drive. The sight triggers the thought. I cannot stop the thought. And here we are; I have sinned.
But, from this point further, I can control what I do with the thought.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

(Sidenote: This is one of the reasons I love Paul. I believe he was a sports nut also. He is talking about the ancient Olympic games here. The corruptible crown was made from olive branches. Sorry, this is one of my favorite passages.)

Back to the discussion: The last verse where Paul writes, "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection:" is my focus. Subjection means the state of being under the power, control and government of another. Can I bring my flesh under the control of the new creation that I have become? It turns out, I can! Am I perfect at it? Far from it. I can't completely stop the sin from where it started. I suspect this was Paul's issue as well.

Romans 7:14-17 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Sounds familiar doesn't it.
I do what I don't allow.
I don't do what I want to do.
I do what I hate.
If I do what I don't want to do, I am proving that the Law is good.
Pay very close attention to the last verse. Why is it no longer Paul that is doing the sin? It's his body. But it is no longer his heart.

I thank God Paul wrote this like he did. Paul struggled with sin the same as you and me. But it is no longer our hearts that sin. It's still me in that my flesh is going to have sinful thoughts from time to time. But by bringing my thoughts under control of my new creation, I can stop the thought from becoming an action. My flesh is still guilty of the thought, and I have to own it. I still need to pray and ask for forgiveness. But God still has my heart.

So, bottom line, it doesn't matter how others portray themselves on this cite. Know the truth, know yourself, and be honest. I am right there with Paul. I have struggled with sin all my life. It has gotten a little easier over the years. But I have to own what I am. I am a sinner saved by grace through faith in Jesus. It is His job to fix me.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

At the close of probation, you are sealed as just or left to continue in sin as unjust, so we have to turn to Christ, put on His robe of rigtheousness, and allow the Holy Spirit to do its work of sanctification..

 

[Josef]

At the close of probation, you are sealed as just or left to continue in sin as unjust, so we have to turn to Christ, put on His robe of righteousness, and allow the Holy Spirit to do its work of sanctification..

Hey All,
Reddogs, I don't believe in probation. I believe Iwas saved the moment Jesus came into my heart. Jesus promised He would never throw me away.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

I trust His promise.

Keep walking everybody.
Taz

 

[Hopeful 2]

There is a false teaching that has infected some here and on other boards. here are some scriptural vaccines against it.
from TGC Australia edition;

Spiritual vaccines against obedience to God...
This should be interesting !

How can a heresy be ‘godly’? In short, it can’t. Godliness is about conformity to sound doctrine (Titus 2:1). However, most cases of (reasonably convincing) false teaching will consist of biblical truths that have been skewed in some way. The ingredients are good, but the recipe is incomplete or else has had unwelcome things added, and the result is a theological and practical mess.

Sinless Perfectionism is a doctrine like that. In short, it holds that it is possible for Christians to completely defeat sin in the present life and to live holy lives like Jesus did. At a glance, it makes a lot of sense. Jesus came to save us from sin. He died for our sins on the cross and he sent his Holy Spirit to empower his people to overcome sin and to live obedient, righteous lives in the present (Titus 2:11-14). Christians should have the highest aspirations for living holy lives and rejecting all sin.

Sinless Perfectionism is Unbiblical​

However, the Bible also says that ‘If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us’ (1 John 1:8). It speaks of the fact that until the resurrection we must be at war with sinful desires (Galatians 5:16-17). Sin is not an enemy ‘out there’. It’s an enemy within that lives and feeds off our fallen human desires and weaknesses (James 1:13-15). That is why sinless perfectionism is not only untrue but also dangerous. People don’t tend to win battles that they don’t even realise they are supposed to be fighting.


There is a much-repeated (but possibly untrue) story about the 19th century Baptist preacher C.H. Spurgeon in which he debunked perfectionism in a memorable way.[1]

Spurgeon was at a conference where a preacher taught perfectionism in an outspoken manner and even claimed to have reached a state of sinless perfection himself. Spurgeon didn’t challenge him on the spot. Instead, the next morning he poured a pitcher of milk over the man’s head, to which the ‘perfectionist’ responded with the kind of rage and hostility that you’d expect from any sinner. Perfectionism debunked.

We like this story. It’s funny to hear of false teaching being exposed in an amusing way. But I suspect that our reaction is far too smug. It betrays an attitude of self-assurance at precisely the point where we should feel our greatest need. It demonstrates a disturbing lack of concern about the fact that we sin and that our sin is deeply offensive to God. When we remember this then it’s impossible to gleefully say in our hearts: “you stupid perfectionists—of course we all sin!” Are we pleased with the situation? Have we forgotten what sin is? Even though we know that it’s false, shouldn’t we wish that sinless perfectionism were true? Don’t you long to be free of sin?

Spiritual Complacency is Unbiblical Too​

If there is an equal and opposite error to sinless perfectionism then it is the sin of spiritual complacency. It’s shrugging your shoulders at sin’s inevitability. It’s acceptance that sin is just part of life, and I’m OK with that. It’s responding to occasions of sin by almost justifying it with glib lines like: “we know that we all sin.” That is a ghastly attitude for a Christian to have and it needs to be challenged.


It is easy for me to criticise sinless perfectionism because I don’t personally know any Christians who struggle with this doctrine. However, I dare say that I know an entire evangelical culture that is complacent about sin. We’ve forgotten that sin is ugly and grotesque; the complete opposite to righteousness. We’ve forgotten that God’s will for our lives is that we be holy (1 Thessalonians 4:3). We’ve forgotten that what Christians look forward to above all else is Jesus returning to take away our sin completely. We’ve forgotten that anyone who truly desires that day to come will be obsessed with living a holy life now (1 John 3:2-3).

Jesus taught that Christians would ‘hunger and thirst’ after righteousness (Matthew 5:6). Imagine a man who has been deprived of food and water for far too long. Hunger and thirst are not just a thought in his head, but all-encompassing desires that cannot be ignored. His whole body cries out for sustenance! He will never – can never – be satisfied until his desire is satiated. Is our hunger for righteousness like that? That’s what perfectionism (at its best) gets right. It desires to be without sin. That is a profoundly godly ambition, and one that all Christians should share. We recognise that we will inevitably fall short. But we are not happy about it.

Come Lord Jesus!

If perfect obedience to God is a false doctrine, why be good at all ?
Why did Jesus command it in Matt 5:48 ?
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt 5:48)
Why did Paul command it in 1 Cor 15:34 ?
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
And again in 2 Tim 2:19 ?
"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)
The writer of Hebrews writes..."But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)
Peter too commands it, in 1 Petr 1:15-16 ?
"But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:15-16)
I will add one of John's exhortations...
"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)
I have over twenty other scriptures by the apostles exhorting us to perfection.

I will stand in obedience with Paul, Peter, and John.