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The history of baptism.

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Seasoned by Grace

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There is a lengthy history of water baptisms, long before God took the familiar practice and applied it to Christianity.

This is another one of those "Shadows of things to come" topics, that we continually find in scripture, as we search Gods word for the "MEAT" that brings us to MATURITY, as we seek out the TRUTH beyond mans beliefs of THEIR TRUTHS, instead of Gods truths.

This is the SHORT VERSION :hysterical .

Pre-Christian Religions baptisms
The practice of baptism in pagan religions seems to have been based on a belief in the purifying properties of water. In ancient Babylon, according to the Tablets of Maklu, water was important as a spiritual cleansing agent in the cult of Enke, lord of Eridu. In Egypt, the Book of Going Forth by Day contains a treatise on the baptism of newborn children, which is performed to purify them of blemishes acquired in the womb. Water, especially the Nile's cold water, which was believed to have regenerative powers, is used to baptize the dead in a ritual based on the Osiris myth. Egyptian cults also developed the idea of regeneration through water. The bath preceding initiation into the cult of Isis seems to have been more than a simple ritual purification; it was probably intended to represent symbolically the initiate's death to the life of this world by recalling Osiris' drowning in the Nile.

In the cult of Cybele, a baptism of blood was practiced in the rite of the Taurobolium: where one was covered with the blood of a bull. At first this rite seems to have been to provide the initiate with greater physical vitality, but later it acquired more of a spiritual importance. A well-known inscription attests that he who has received baptism of blood has received a new birth in eternity. However, the fact that this baptism was repeated periodically shows that the idea of complete spiritual regeneration was not associated with it.


The Baptism of John
When John the Baptist came on the scene in the first century Jewish world, his teaching included the necessity of baptism. The people of his day were familiar with the act or practice of baptism as just discussed. However, John's baptism was not based on or authorized by the Jewish law or pagan religious customs and traditions. John was called to preach by God, armed only with the Word of God (Luke 3:2). Jesus tells us that the baptism that John taught was from heaven, not from men ( Matt 21:25). When John preached a baptism for the remission of sins, the people heard and obeyed. They submitted to the baptism that had been authorized by God. It was the first time in human history in which a person had the opportunity to be baptized for the remission of his sins, pagan and Jewish religious customs, notwithstanding. A necessary refinement in the administration of baptism had to be made following the death of Jesus, however, as Acts 19:1-7 points out. Rather than submitting to the baptism of John, which was a baptism of repentance, we can now be baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

GREEK HISTORY AND BAPTISM.
"The Greek word "baptizo" as used in Mark 1:4 ( "And so John came, baptizing in the desert region . . ." ) was very common among Greek-speaking people; it is used in every period of Greek literature and was applied to a great variety of matters, including the most familiar acts of everyday life. Greek speakers and hearers understood the word at the time John was preaching; it had no doubtful meaning. It meant what we express by the Latin word 'immerse' and kindred terms; no one could then have thought of attributing to it a different meaning, such as 'sprinkle' or 'pour.'" (Boles, H. Leo Commentary on Matthew. Gospel Advocate Pub. Pg 74).

The property of immortality was also associated with baptism in the ancient Greek world. A bath in the sanctuary of Trophonion procured for the initiate a blessed immortality even while in this world. The mystery religions of that period often included ablution rites of either immersion or a washing of the body for the purposes of purification or initiation. Other concepts said to have been associated with these forms of cultic baptisms included the transformation of one's life, the removal of sins, symbolic representation, the attainment of greater physical vitality, a new beginning, spiritual regeneration. It is believed that All ANCIENT RELIGIONS recognized some form of spiritual cleansing, renewal or initiation that was accomplished through a washing or immersion in water.


Judaism and baptisms before John
The liturgical use of water was common in the Jewish world. The Law of Moses required ablutions (washings) on the part of priests following certain sacrifices and on certain individuals who were unclean because of an infectious disease (Num. 19:1-22; Lev 14,15, 16:24-28). The natural method of cleansing the body by washing and bathing in water was always customary in Israel. The washing of their clothes was an important means of sanctification imposed on the Israelites even before the law was given a Mt. Sinai (Ex 19:10). The use of water for cleansing was used symbolically as well in such passages as Eze 36:25 where God says, "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities . . ." We do not believe that the practice of baptism for the remission of sins as taught in the New Testament was based in any way on the Old Testament, however the Old Testament washings with or in water that were for the purpose of physical cleansing can be seen as a type or shadow of New Testament baptism, which is for the purpose of spiritual cleansing (1 Peter 3:21).


The Baptism of John
When John the Baptist came on the scene in the first century Jewish world, his teaching included the necessity of baptism. The people of his day were familiar with the act or practice of baptism as just discussed. However, John's baptism was not based on or authorized by the Jewish law or pagan religious customs and traditions. John was called to preach by God, armed only with the Word of God (Luke 3:2). Jesus tells us that the baptism that John taught was from heaven, not from men ( Matt 21:25). When John preached a baptism for the remission of sins, the people heard and obeyed. They submitted to the baptism that had been authorized by God. It was the first time in human history in which a person had the opportunity to be baptized for the remission of his sins, pagan and Jewish religious customs, notwithstanding. A necessary refinement in the administration of baptism had to be made following the death of Jesus, however, as Acts 19:1-7 points out. Rather than submitting to the baptism of John, which was a baptism of repentance, we can now be baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

I have nothing more to add, as these are words of God and history of the ages, most people are unaware of, and make their choices in total misunderstandings and lack of knowledge.

My name is OLIGOS
 
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the didache , tells one how to baptize and how the early church did it and it is written in greek and translated to english. it does say to use water in many ways to baptise. a full dunk if possible, sprinkle if that is all you have.
 
most people are unaware of, and make their choices in total misunderstandings and lack of knowledge.

The history of baptism is irrelevant to Christian baptism, just as pagan use of Yule and rites of spring etc are irrelevant to how Christians use those times of year.

There is no power in ritual, the symbolism has meaning, but what is really important is the reason people participate in these rites and rituals. It is there faith in Jesus that is important and baptism is a vehicle for them to publicly proclaim there faith.
Whether warm water, still cold water or fast flowing streams are used or a lake or sea does not matter.
Their faith and the faith of those witnessing it are what matter.
 
The history of baptism is irrelevant to Christian baptism, just as pagan use of Yule and rites of spring etc are irrelevant to how Christians use those times of year.

There is no power in ritual, the symbolism has meaning, but what is really important is the reason people participate in these rites and rituals. It is there faith in Jesus that is important and baptism is a vehicle for them to publicly proclaim there faith.
Whether warm water, still cold water or fast flowing streams are used or a lake or sea does not matter.
Their faith and the faith of those witnessing it are what matter.

WM,

I find it interesting to investigate the when and why for infant baptism entering the church in about the 3rd century. I found this to be a sound historical investigation of the topic: What are the historical origins of infant baptism?

Oz
 
It is there faith in Jesus that is important and baptism is a vehicle for them to publicly proclaim there faith.

Who Me my brother in Christ
Your statement above that I quoted is not according to scripture,
If you read the following you will see the vast connection baptism has to many aspects of SALVATION.

I came to Christ through water IMMERSION baptism - Acts 2:38,
where I died to my sins, was buried in baptism to become a dead sinner, and came up out of the water as a new, regenerated believer, ALIVE in Christ as my Savior - Romans 6, the whole chapter.

In water IMMERSION baptism, I came into contact with the blood of the LAMB, Jesus Christ, and my SANCTIFICATION process began. Heb. 13:12
Also, at that point of being saved by contact with the blood, I was
instantly;
RECONCILED to God. 2nd Cor. 5:18
REDEEMED by the blood of the LAMB. 1st Peter 1:18
Received ATONEMENT for my sins through Christ's blood. Heb. 5:9
JUSTIFIED. Romans 5:9
FORGIVEN of my past sins. Acts 2:38, Rev. 1:5
SAVED from the bondage of sin. Heb. 13:12
Received the GIFT of the HOLY SPIRIT. Acts 2:38
EXPIATED from my sins. My certificate of debt, charges against me as a sinner, was cancelled. Col. 2:13-14
Received PROPITIATION through Christ's blood, when He "took my place at the CROSS." Romans 3:24-25

All of the above through baptism.

I hope this gives you a view to salvation that may help you in your walk.

My name is OLIGOS
 
Ephesians 2:8 Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus and not by works, which would make water baptism a work towards repentance. John said I must decrease and Jesus increase. John's water baptism was only for repentance as being prepared for the coming of the Lord as the water represented the washing away of sin, or as John put it "prepare ye the way of the Lord". It is not clear in scripture that Jesus ever baptized anyone in water even though He first came to John's water baptism as a fulfillment of prophecy as He had to identify with humanity even though He had no sin. This was the beginning of Christ ministry as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him that day as God gave Him full power and authority here on earth and there after Jesus went about teaching the disciples as it was not Jesus who the Pharisees heard that He baptized more than John did, John 4:1-3 but His disciples baptizing others in water for remission of sin after the death of John the Baptist as all together they would have baptized others in water for the remission of sin then John could at one time. Jesus could not baptize anyone in the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentecost after He ascended up to the Father and the Father sent down the indwelling Holy Spirit, Acts 2.

John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water, word of God, that no one can enter into the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the hearing of the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. God's word is living water as described in John 4:4-26; 7:37-39; 12:44-50; Ephesians 5:26; 1 John 5:5-8; Jeremiah 17:13; Zechariah 14:8, 9; Rev 21:6-8; Ezekiel 47:22.

If salvation came by actual immersion in water Jesus clearly could have simply stated, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized by being immersed in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).

There is the case of the thief on the cross who repented, the women who was to be stoned for adultery, the women at the well, death bed confessions and even those who are incapacitated that can not be immersed in water. Does this mean they are not saved or born again, no. It means that no dirty river water is going to save anyone, but that it is only a symbol of repentance like that of John the baptist who called those to repent first. There is nothing wrong with being dunked in water, but know that it is only an outward appearance to others of what has already taken place Spiritually within you when you repented, accepted Jesus and was indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

Baptism is not mentioned in John chapter three so why do so many believe we are to be dunked in dirty river water as the water can not bring about Gods salvation, but only by faith do we believe as it comes by Gods grace, Ephesians 2:1-10, as we hear the gospel (word/living water) preached to us.

This is what the Jerusalem Bible says:
John 3:3 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born from above, he can not see the kingdom of God."
John 3:5-7 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born through water and the Spirit, he can not enter the kingdom of God. What is born of the flesh is flesh,(sin nature) what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be surprised when I say you must be born from above.

One needs to hear the word of God, as word being living water, in order to know they have to be born again of the Spirit in order to see and enter the kingdom of God.

John's baptism was literal, but yet symbolic for cleansing after one repented of their sin. Notice in Mark 1:8 I have baptized you with (actual) water, but he (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. (Not water, but baptize you with the Holy Spirit after you have repented and made clean again through the washing of the word as you become a new creation in Christ.

Jesus never baptized anyone in literal water that we know of and also instructed the Disciples to wait upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Acts chapter 1, and then commissioned them to go out preaching the Gospel (word/living water) and to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:16-20.

Being born from above means being born from the heavenly word of God, not dirty river water. When Jesus was baptized by John it was for the fulfillment of Messiah come as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him. Jesus had no need of being baptized in water for the remission of sin.
 
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Ephesians 2:8 Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus and not by works, which would make water baptism a work towards repentance. John said I must decrease and Jesus increase. John's water baptism was only for repentance as being prepared for the coming of the Lord as the water represented the washing away of sin, or as John put it "prepare ye the way of the Lord". It is not clear in scripture that Jesus ever baptized anyone in water even though He first came to John's water baptism as a fulfillment of prophecy as He had to identify with humanity even though He had no sin. This was the beginning of Christ ministry as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him that day as God gave Him full power and authority here on earth and there after Jesus went about teaching the disciples as it was not Jesus who the Pharisees heard that He baptized more than John did, John 4:1-3 but His disciples baptizing others in water for remission of sin after the death of John the Baptist as all together they would have baptized others in water for the remission of sin then John could at one time. Jesus could not baptize anyone in the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentecost after He ascended up to the Father and the Father sent down the indwelling Holy Spirit, Acts 2.

John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water, word of God, that no one can enter into the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the hearing of the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. God's word is living water as described in John 4:4-26; 7:37-39; 12:44-50; Ephesians 5:26; 1 John 5:5-8; Jeremiah 17:13; Zechariah 14:8, 9; Rev 21:6-8; Ezekiel 47:22.

If salvation came by actual immersion in water Jesus clearly could have simply stated, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized by being immersed in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).

There is the case of the thief on the cross who repented, the women who was to be stoned for adultery, the women at the well, death bed confessions and even those who are incapacitated that can not be immersed in water. Does this mean they are not saved or born again, no. It means that no dirty river water is going to save anyone, but that it is only a symbol of repentance like that of John the baptist who called those to repent first. There is nothing wrong with being dunked in water, but know that it is only an outward appearance to others of what has already taken place Spiritually within you when you repented, accepted Jesus and was indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

Baptism is not mentioned in John chapter three so why do so many believe we are to be dunked in dirty river water as the water can not bring about Gods salvation, but only by faith do we believe as it comes by Gods grace, Ephesians 2:1-10, as we hear the gospel (word/living water) preached to us.

This is what the Jerusalem Bible says:
John 3:3 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born from above, he can not see the kingdom of God."
John 3:5-7 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born through water and the Spirit, he can not enter the kingdom of God. What is born of the flesh is flesh,(sin nature) what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be surprised when I say you must be born from above.

One needs to hear the word of God, as word being living water, in order to know they have to be born again of the Spirit in order to see and enter the kingdom of God.

John's baptism was literal, but yet symbolic for cleansing after one repented of their sin. Notice in Mark 1:8 I have baptized you with (actual) water, but he (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. (Not water, but baptize you with the Holy Spirit after you have repented and made clean again through the washing of the word as you become a new creation in Christ.

Jesus never baptized anyone in literal water that we know of and also instructed the Disciples to wait upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Acts chapter 1, and then commissioned them to go out preaching the Gospel (word/living water) and to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:16-20.

Being born from above means being born from the heavenly word of God, not dirty river water. When Jesus was baptized by John it was for the fulfillment of Messiah come as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him. Jesus had no need of being baptized in water for the remission of sin.

for_his_glory
You and JLB B have such wonderful reasoning minds that think so logically. I just love that about you both.

Salvation in the bible is such a beautiful study.
You both know how long I have been a Christian, and for at least half of that time I have wondered why God's word is seen and studied the way it is,

For some reason, people "Adamently choose one idea in the bible over another, rather than studying the bible as a complete message with no contradictions or confusion.
I am BAFFLED!!!!.
The bible in some circles is called Gods ADMINISTRATION, 1st Tim. 1: 3-4, and Eph. 3:9, or GODS ECONOMY, or if your into Koine Greek like I am, HIS oikonomia, which literally means the head of the "HOUSEHOLD", like an uber-rich owner of not only a huge wealth producing business, but the owner of a fabulous mansion with a lot of servants and drivers who take the family anywhere they want to go, cooks, maids those who keep the house in order, even grounds keepers, while the administrator is caring for his business, but at the same time caring for all the needs of his family in a very orderly and organized successful application of his power and abilities, using all those in his world to make all that happen, successful.
Everything the successful administrator does is with HARMONY, and because he is so constant in his desire for things to be a certain way, and tells everyone, EVERYONE in his world knows what they are expected to do and how they will be cared for also- EVERYONE.
The administrator has laid everything out clearly with each person, so there is no confusion what each persons duties and responsibilities are, so the can all function the way the administrator has planned - CLEARLY.

To me, the bible is that same type of plan GOD laid out very CLEARLY with no confusion or contradictions.
The bible was meant by God to tell one complete story of His plans and intentions with HARMONY in every word, every thought, every intention, and every part of let's say, as an example, salvation, every teaching, to be in HARMONY with every other idea or thought in the bible about salvation.

There's to be no contradiction of how Gods word is translated, and if there seems to be contradictions or confusion, let's say like BAPTISM IN THE SPIRIT, vs. IMMERSION WATER BAPTISM, then you study it out until HARMONY is found with the 2 baptisms, in order to maintain UNITY of GODS WORD.

Somehow, BAPTISM in THE SPIRIT and IMMERSION WATER BAPTISM have to be in HARMONY and UNITY, and in some way they have to work together, and not be seen as opposites, but meant to work together, so Gods word can continue in a HARMONIOUS TEACHING of a faith that is constantly CONSISTENT in Gods meanings and plans until the END.

As long as people refuse to look for HARMONY and UNITY in God's word, there will be NO HARMONY OR UNITY in the church or between believers.

God bless you both and take some time to think about this before you respond.
It could possibly be a new thing to consider, maybe you haven't heard this before, but well worth the time.

My name is OLIGOS
 
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for_his_glory
You and JLB B have such wonderful reasoning minds that think so logically. I just love that about you both.

Salvation in the bible is such a beautiful study.
You both know how long I have been a Christian, and for at least half of that time I have wondered why God's word is seen and studied the way it is,

For some reason, people "Adamently choose one idea in the bible over another, rather than studying the bible as a complete message with no contradictions or confusion.
I am BAFFLED!!!!.
The bible in some circles is called Gods ADMINISTRATION, 1st Tim. 1: 3-4, and Eph. 3:9, or GODS ECONOMY, or if your into Koine Greek like I am, HIS oikonomia, which literally means the head of the "HOUSEHOLD", like an uber-rich owner of not only a huge wealth producing business, but the owner of a fabulous mansion with a lot of servants and drivers who take the family anywhere they want to go, cooks, maids those who keep the house in order, even grounds keepers, while the administrator is caring for his business, but at the same time caring for all the needs of his family in a very orderly and organized successful application of his power and abilities, using all those in his world to make all that happen, successful.
Everything the successful administrator does is with HARMONY, and because he is so constant in his desire for things to be a certain way, and tells everyone, EVERYONE in his world knows what they are expected to do and how they will be cared for also- EVERYONE.
The administrator has laid everything out clearly with each person, so there is no confusion what each persons duties and responsibilities are, so the can all function the way the administrator has planned - CLEARLY.

To me, the bible is that same type of plan GOD laid out very CLEARLY with no confusion or contradictions.
The bible was meant by God to tell one complete story of His plans and intentions with HARMONY in every word, every thought, every intention, and every part of let's say, as an example, salvation, every teaching, to be in HARMONY with every other idea or thought in the bible about salvation.

There's to be no contradiction of how Gods word is translated, and if there seems to be contradictions or confusion, let's say like BAPTISM IN THE SPIRIT, vs. IMMERSION WATER BAPTISM, then you study it out until HARMONY is found with the 2 baptisms, in order to maintain UNITY of GODS WORD.

Somehow, BAPTISM in THE SPIRIT and IMMERSION WATER BAPTISM have to be in HARMONY and UNITY, and in some way they have to work together, and not be seen as opposites, but meant to work together, so Gods word can continue in a HARMONIOUS TEACHING of a faith that is constantly CONSISTENT in Gods meanings and plans until the END.

God bless you both and take some time to think about this before you respond.
It could possibly be a new thing to consider, maybe you haven't heard this before, but well worth the time.

My name is OLIGOS

Here is an example of the harmony you are referring in the scriptures, as Paul laid out the process of all three baptisms as tvptified from the Old Testament types.

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2

I will show each distinct baptism from the New Testament in the order of salvation.


First I would like to note that when the children of Israel "repented" after hearing the Gospel they were baptized into Moses.

This typtifies us being baptized into Christ when we repent; when we believe and therefore obey the Gospel by confessing Jesus Christ as Lord.

This is when we are born again by the Spirit.

Then the children of Israel were baptized in the cloud (Spirit) and the sea (water).



JLB
 
JLB My dear brother.
I can see there are things we will never agree on, BUT... what I learned a few months ago was a LIFE SAVER for me.
I just love the way the Holy Spirit opens our eyes to new truths.

I st Corinthians 13:13, "But now abide faith hope and love; but the greatest of these is love."

For me this means that Love in CHRIST for each other will ALWAYS be GREATER to God than our faith, or what we believe to be the truth.

So for me, if I love you or anyone else more than I see the truth to be, because we disagree, my faith is still complete in Christ, because love is greater than faith. Love is greater than differences of opinion.

The 2 greatest Commandments are "To love the Lord your God with all you heart and soul and mind and strength, and the 2nd is like the first, to love your neighbor as yourself."

I can't even put into words, finally, the understanding these verses have brought to me through the Holy Spirit -
PRAISE GOD.

Now, even if someone said they believe the devil is GOD, and we know he isn't, I could still love that person, while disagreeing with their beliefs - THAT IS JUST SO COOL !!! Gods Love is just so AMAZING !!

I can now love everyone no matter what they believe. I don't have to believe what they believe, and I can share what I believe, and at the same time, love them as I do myself.

For me that understanding is SO FREEING.
THANK YOU JESUS !!!

My name is OLIGOS, and I am HAPPY !!!
 
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for_his_glory
You and JLB B have such wonderful reasoning minds that think so logically. I just love that about you both.

Salvation in the bible is such a beautiful study.
You both know how long I have been a Christian, and for at least half of that time I have wondered why God's word is seen and studied the way it is,

For some reason, people "Adamently choose one idea in the bible over another, rather than studying the bible as a complete message with no contradictions or confusion.
I am BAFFLED!!!!.
The bible in some circles is called Gods ADMINISTRATION, 1st Tim. 1: 3-4, and Eph. 3:9, or GODS ECONOMY, or if your into Koine Greek like I am, HIS oikonomia, which literally means the head of the "HOUSEHOLD", like an uber-rich owner of not only a huge wealth producing business, but the owner of a fabulous mansion with a lot of servants and drivers who take the family anywhere they want to go, cooks, maids those who keep the house in order, even grounds keepers, while the administrator is caring for his business, but at the same time caring for all the needs of his family in a very orderly and organized successful application of his power and abilities, using all those in his world to make all that happen, successful.
Everything the successful administrator does is with HARMONY, and because he is so constant in his desire for things to be a certain way, and tells everyone, EVERYONE in his world knows what they are expected to do and how they will be cared for also- EVERYONE.
The administrator has laid everything out clearly with each person, so there is no confusion what each persons duties and responsibilities are, so the can all function the way the administrator has planned - CLEARLY.

To me, the bible is that same type of plan GOD laid out very CLEARLY with no confusion or contradictions.
The bible was meant by God to tell one complete story of His plans and intentions with HARMONY in every word, every thought, every intention, and every part of let's say, as an example, salvation, every teaching, to be in HARMONY with every other idea or thought in the bible about salvation.

There's to be no contradiction of how Gods word is translated, and if there seems to be contradictions or confusion, let's say like BAPTISM IN THE SPIRIT, vs. IMMERSION WATER BAPTISM, then you study it out until HARMONY is found with the 2 baptisms, in order to maintain UNITY of GODS WORD.

Somehow, BAPTISM in THE SPIRIT and IMMERSION WATER BAPTISM have to be in HARMONY and UNITY, and in some way they have to work together, and not be seen as opposites, but meant to work together, so Gods word can continue in a HARMONIOUS TEACHING of a faith that is constantly CONSISTENT in Gods meanings and plans until the END.

As long as people refuse to look for HARMONY and UNITY in God's word, there will be NO HARMONY OR UNITY in the church or between believers.

God bless you both and take some time to think about this before you respond.
It could possibly be a new thing to consider, maybe you haven't heard this before, but well worth the time.

My name is OLIGOS

We can become clouded by all the various interpretations that comes from traditional teachings of man that causes much confusion and contradicts the word of God. Adding to and taking away from that which is so simple to understand in many parts and those parts which remain a mystery that only the Holy Spirit can teach us.

I've been studying the Bible for 47 years and still my knowledge would only fill a thimble within the greater knowledge that we may never reach. I've learned to feel confident in what I teach and to also be appreciative of those with a greater knowledge then I to help correct any errors I make as the Holy Spirit works through them.

We might not always agree, but it doesn't mean one is right and the other wrong, it just means we are all on different levels of learning and by what resources we use in how we study. What is important is to understand the full context of scripture comparing OT with NT, history and cultures of all the different eras found in the Bible. We learn, we mature, we lift up and edify one another as we walk in the unity of love and allow others their beliefs. Division tears us down, but love builds us up. Grace loves us while mercy pardons us as we all strive to walk in the Spirit as we crucify this flesh daily as we are made righteous by that of God's righteousness found in us.

God truly is the Administrator of all things as He has created all things good and we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 
Seasoned by Grace
I think you dismiss the Jewish origins too lightly.
The origins are the ritual purification of full body washing known in Hebrew as tevilah in a mikvah (ritual bath). Mikvah means a gathering of water and so a river is a mikvah. Since rivers were not commonly available it was any suitable pool of water, but not a free standing bath in the modern sense. It had to be dug into the ground, or built into the structure of a building and should contain rainwater with a minimum of 77 gallons. Bathing should be by total immersion and naked to ensure every part of the body was purified.

When the Jews and Evangelists wrote in Greek they avoided the Greek words for bathe and bath because of the sexual connotations. The Greek communal bathing was a place of gossip (often crude), communal nudity and homosexuality. So they used the word baptizo (and it’s derivatives) instead. The word therefore expresses this ritual purification in water.
The origins of this purification ritual go back to the book off Leviticus. There seem to be three occasions where a mikvar is required in Leviticus, those involving birth (including sex and menstruation), death (including skin diseases) and coming into the presence of God. They seem to be a reminder of our uncleanness and the need for purification. So the tevilar/mikvar also became a symbol of repentance, of expressing faith that cleansing was available and of asking for it. Hence John the Baptist baptised in the Jordan as a baptism of repentance.

We can see the three purposes in Christian baptism.

Birth – we are born from above (born again) in baptism (Jn 3:5)

Death – Paul compares baptism to dying with Christ and rising to new life. There are two connotations here because entering a mikvar involved physical descent and coming out a physical ascent (rising), something Paul would be very aware of. (Rom 6:3-4 and Col 2:11-12). When Jews became Christians the public and private mikvahs became used for baptism instead.

Coming into the presence of God and forgiveness of sin – In baptism we are made children of God and our sins are forgiven (1Cor 12:12-13, Coll 2:11-13, Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16).

The Pharisees bathed daily for ritual cleansing and before entering the temple (coming into the presence of God). Excavations of the TempleMount area have shown that there were 48 mikvahs for ritual bathing (hence why the apostles could baptise 3,000 at Pentecost).

There are two more uses of the mikvah that have some parallels in Christianity.
Firstly, when a Rabbi took a student as his disciple the Rabbi supervised the student taking a mikvar in his name (http://beth-abraham.org/mikvah.html ). Thus you became cleansed from your old life (born again) with your Rabbi as your spiritual father, and you were to believe and observe everything he taught you, and obey his commands.
Thus in Christian baptism we become cleansed from our old life, with Jesus as our Rabbi, and we promise to believe and obey him. Also the reference to be baptised in the name of Jesus (Acts 8:16, Acts 10:48, Acts 19:5)

Secondly when a gentile because a Jew, he/she was taught the Jewish faith, and then with prayers took a mikvah, and men were circumcised. In Acts 15 circumcision was dispensed with. The mikvah was part of the initiation into Judaism just as baptism is a part of the initiation into Christianity.
 
Mungo my brother.
I have the greatest respect and LOVE for the Jewish community and have Jewish friends, and I do sincerely apologize for anything you may see as my dismissing the Jewish faith in my post.

I was sincerely trying to give a balance view of the HISTORY OF BAPTISM and it's roots, and if I offended you, please accept my deepest apologies, as that was never my intention to disrespect anyone, or anyone's faith.

God bless you my friend.
My name is OLIGOS
 
Mungo my brother.
I have the greatest respect and LOVE for the Jewish community and have Jewish friends, and I do sincerely apologize for anything you may see as my dismissing the Jewish faith in my post.

I was sincerely trying to give a balance view of the HISTORY OF BAPTISM and it's roots, and if I offended you, please accept my deepest apologies, as that was never my intention to disrespect anyone, or anyone's faith.

God bless you my friend.
My name is OLIGOS

My brother in Christ, I am not Jewish and I am not offended.
Much of our Christian faith has Jewish roots. You said in the OP "We do not believe that the practice of baptism for the remission of sins as taught in the New Testament was based in any way on the Old Testament", something I disagree with as I tried to show in my post.
 
My brother in Christ, I am not Jewish and I am not offended.
Much of our Christian faith has Jewish roots. You said in the OP "We do not believe that the practice of baptism for the remission of sins as taught in the New Testament was based in any way on the Old Testament", something I disagree with as I tried to show in my post.
Mungo my dear brother in Christ.

Your quote was taken out of context, which you should know better, and doesn't carry the whole thought as I will post here below.

Quote
We do not believe that the practice of baptism for the remission of sins as taught in the New Testament was based in any way on the Old Testament, however the Old Testament washings with or in water that were for the purpose of physical cleansing can be seen as a type or shadow of New Testament baptism, which is for the purpose of spiritual cleansing (1 Peter 3:21).

That was the COMPLETE STATEMENT !!

My statement wasn't eliminating the Jewish culture or their lineage in the Process of getting to the Christian IMMERSION baptism.
I was showing that they were part of the process, but not the ORIGIN.
Actually if you want to get more technical, God was the SPIRITUAL origin, my topic is about the PHYSICAL ORIGIN -
TECHNICALLY :biggrin2 .

As I said in my opening statement, God all threw history, was and is known for taking familiar non-Christian cultural practices, and using them as an application to their faith back in the day when Christianity was first being introduced to mankind, especially the Jews.

I love knowing their is a HISTORY (Capitalization not yelling - emphasizing) of our faith beyond just the bible and studying it has grown my faith much greater than just reading the bible.
For me Gods word is my life, but thanks be to God there is so much more in the HISTORY of Christianity and the history of the bible thanks be to God Himself.

History is MAGNIFICENTLY exciting and full of answers to things God never covers, but he gives us the opportunity to study if we're willing to spend the time to dig into like looking for a lost treasure.

Why would I limit myself, when their could be and is, so much more to the story God tell us of our faith, and it's all their as a gift from God if we're willing to dig and search.

If you don't agree with my energy and excitement, which is fine, as well as my maturing process in Christ the way I have been called to by the Holy Spirit, then at least, at my 77 years of age, love me, respect me, and let me follow my path God has set me on for my growth.

Love you brother and God bless you as you continue to grow in Christ your way.
My name is OLIGOS
 
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Lev 16:23 And Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall put off the linen garments, which he put on when he went into the holy place, and shall leave them there:
Lev 16:24 And he shall wash his flesh with water in the holy place, and put on his garments, and come forth, and offer his burnt offering, and the burnt offering of the people, and make an atonement for himself, and for the people.

The Mikveh (meaning a collection of water) in the OT was a bath used for the purpose of ritual immersion. Several biblical regulations specify that full immersion in water is required to regain ritual purity after ritually impure incidents have occurred. In Priestly law, the ultimate purpose of ritual purification was to protect God's sanctuary, the tabernacle, from contamination, Leviticus chapter 15.

The Mikveh, being a shadow of John's baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit, was for purification, not for remission of sin, like that of what Esaias prophesied saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight, Isaiah 40:3. In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins, Matthew 3:1-6. John said, I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire, Matthew 3:11.
 
Lev 16:23 And Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall put off the linen garments, which he put on when he went into the holy place, and shall leave them there:
Lev 16:24 And he shall wash his flesh with water in the holy place, and put on his garments, and come forth, and offer his burnt offering, and the burnt offering of the people, and make an atonement for himself, and for the people.

The Mikveh (meaning a collection of water) in the OT was a bath used for the purpose of ritual immersion. Several biblical regulations specify that full immersion in water is required to regain ritual purity after ritually impure incidents have occurred. In Priestly law, the ultimate purpose of ritual purification was to protect God's sanctuary, the tabernacle, from contamination, Leviticus chapter 15.

The Mikveh, being a shadow of John's baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit, was for purification, not for remission of sin, like that of what Esaias prophesied saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight, Isaiah 40:3. In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins, Matthew 3:1-6. John said, I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire, Matthew 3:11.


Amen. Baptism with the Holy Spirit is one of the baptism’s.



JLB
 
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Seasoned by Grace
I think you dismiss the Jewish origins too lightly.
The origins are the ritual purification of full body washing known in Hebrew as tevilah in a mikvah (ritual bath). Mikvah means a gathering of water and so a river is a mikvah. Since rivers were not commonly available it was any suitable pool of water, but not a free standing bath in the modern sense. It had to be dug into the ground, or built into the structure of a building and should contain rainwater with a minimum of 77 gallons. Bathing should be by total immersion and naked to ensure every part of the body was purified.

When the Jews and Evangelists wrote in Greek they avoided the Greek words for bathe and bath because of the sexual connotations. The Greek communal bathing was a place of gossip (often crude), communal nudity and homosexuality. So they used the word baptizo (and it’s derivatives) instead. The word therefore expresses this ritual purification in water.
The origins of this purification ritual go back to the book off Leviticus. There seem to be three occasions where a mikvar is required in Leviticus, those involving birth (including sex and menstruation), death (including skin diseases) and coming into the presence of God. They seem to be a reminder of our uncleanness and the need for purification. So the tevilar/mikvar also became a symbol of repentance, of expressing faith that cleansing was available and of asking for it. Hence John the Baptist baptised in the Jordan as a baptism of repentance.

We can see the three purposes in Christian baptism.

Birth – we are born from above (born again) in baptism (Jn 3:5)

Death – Paul compares baptism to dying with Christ and rising to new life. There are two connotations here because entering a mikvar involved physical descent and coming out a physical ascent (rising), something Paul would be very aware of. (Rom 6:3-4 and Col 2:11-12). When Jews became Christians the public and private mikvahs became used for baptism instead.

Coming into the presence of God and forgiveness of sin – In baptism we are made children of God and our sins are forgiven (1Cor 12:12-13, Coll 2:11-13, Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16).

The Pharisees bathed daily for ritual cleansing and before entering the temple (coming into the presence of God). Excavations of the TempleMount area have shown that there were 48 mikvahs for ritual bathing (hence why the apostles could baptise 3,000 at Pentecost).

There are two more uses of the mikvah that have some parallels in Christianity.
Firstly, when a Rabbi took a student as his disciple the Rabbi supervised the student taking a mikvar in his name (http://beth-abraham.org/mikvah.html ). Thus you became cleansed from your old life (born again) with your Rabbi as your spiritual father, and you were to believe and observe everything he taught you, and obey his commands.
Thus in Christian baptism we become cleansed from our old life, with Jesus as our Rabbi, and we promise to believe and obey him. Also the reference to be baptised in the name of Jesus (Acts 8:16, Acts 10:48, Acts 19:5)

Secondly when a gentile because a Jew, he/she was taught the Jewish faith, and then with prayers took a mikvah, and men were circumcised. In Acts 15 circumcision was dispensed with. The mikvah was part of the initiation into Judaism just as baptism is a part of the initiation into Christianity.

Paul, by the Spirit, showed us the OT type of water baptism which is the foundation, the first time and takes precedent over any other minor types of baptism in the Old Testament.


Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
1 Corinthians 10:1-2


This is a biblical type of baptism, and foreshadows John’s baptism in water.



There are three distinct and different baptisms, in the New Testament, with three different baptizers.




JLB
 
Paul, by the Spirit, showed us the OT type of water baptism which is the foundation, the first time and takes precedent over any other minor types of baptism in the Old Testament.


Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
1 Corinthians 10:1-2


This is a biblical type of baptism, and foreshadows John’s baptism in water.



There are three distinct and different baptisms, in the New Testament, with three different baptizers.




JLB

One baptism "one Lord, one faith, one baptism", (Eph 4:5).
 
One baptism "one Lord, one faith, one baptism", (Eph 4:5).

There is one baptism that all born again Christians share.


Its this one, where we are all baptized into one body, the body of Christ, and are all members of one body.

Thats the context.


For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. For in fact the body is not one member but many.
If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
1 Corinthians 12:13-19


Have you been baptized with the Holy Spirit?



JLB
 
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