THE LATIN MASS

[GodsGrace]

I was wondering if Mungo and Walpole feel that changing the Latin Mass to common languages was harmful to the church.
My conservative Catholic friends feel it was damaging. I'm not sure why.

Here in Italy the tabernacle was moved from the altar area to a quiet part of the church. I can understand why they don't like this. Neither do I.

Also returning to receiving communion at the altar banister (forget what it's called), kneeling, is brought up at times. I don't know if it comes from the Vatican...I doubt it.

 

[Mungo]

I was wondering if Mungo and Walpole feel that changing the Latin Mass to common languages was harmful to the church.
My conservative Catholic friends feel it was damaging. I'm not sure why.

Personally I think it was a good thing.
Yes, we could have a Mass book in two columns with the Latin on one side and English on the other but I think it's much better in a language we understand. We can listen properly

The Mass was not just translated our own language but we were encouraged to participate in the responses. In the Latin Mass only the altar server spoke the responses. We were just passive observers.

Also the priest faced the people instead of having his back to them. It was meant to be more of a gathering round. Jesus didn't turn his back on the apostles at the last supper.
Hymns were introduced (initially of very variable quality) and musicians with guitars.

One problem that arose was that some trendy priests went too far in loosening up. They also dropped some of the mystery, like incense.
It varied a lot.

Here in Italy the tabernacle was moved from the altar area to a quiet part of the church. I can understand why they don't like this. Neither do I.

In many churches here the tabernacle was moved to the side of the sanctuary area, ostensibly so that the priest didn't have his back to it when saying Mass. I don't know whether that was done in our church where we are (we weren't here when all these changes were happenIng). But it is at the back of the sanctuary now.

Also returning to receiving communion at the altar banister (forget what it's called), kneeling, is brought up at times. I don't know if it comes from the Vatican...I doubt it.

Generally the old altar rails were done away with as part of the restructuring of the sanctuary. Communion was (and is) received in the hand whilst standing rather than just on he tongue, kneeling at the altar rails. The chalice was introduced for the laity not just the priest to give "the fullness of the sign" as per the Last Supper.

At least that is my experience.

 

[Niblo]

Personally I think it was a good thing.
Yes, we could have a Mass book in two columns with the Latin on one side and English on the other but I think it's much better in a language we understand. We can listen properly

The Mass was not just translated our own language but we were encouraged to participate in the responses. In the Latin Mass only the altar server spoke the responses. We were just passive observers.

Also the priest faced the people instead of having his back to them. It was meant to be more of a gathering round. Jesus didn't turn his back on the apostles at the last supper.
Hymns were introduced (initially of very variable quality) and musicians with guitars.

One problem that arose was that some trendy priests went too far in loosening up. They also dropped some of the mystery, like incense.
It varied a lot.


In many churches here the tabernacle was moved to the side of the sanctuary area, ostensibly so that the priest didn't have his back to it when saying Mass. I don't know whether that was done in our church where we are (we weren't here when all these changes were happenIng). But it is at the back of the sanctuary now.



Generally the old altar rails were done away with as part of the restructuring of the sanctuary. Communion was (and is) received in the hand whilst standing rather than just on he tongue, kneeling at the altar rails. The chalice was introduced for the laity not just the priest to give "the fullness of the sign" as per the Last Supper.

At least that is my experience.

Agreed.

In our local church, the tabernacle remains at the centre of the altar.

Some folk may feel offended by their priest having his back to the tabernacle during Mass. It may help them to remember that during the Mass itself, their Lord - according to dogma - is very much present in the hands of the celebrant...and in their own, during communion.

 

[GodsGrace]

Personally I think it was a good thing.
Yes, we could have a Mass book in two columns with the Latin on one side and English on the other but I think it's much better in a language we understand. We can listen properly

Agreed. For this reason it was a good thing.
It was less universal...when travelling, for example, I couldn't understand the Mass.
Instead it used to be in Latin no matter where a person went. I have some friends that know how to follow the Mass in Latin and still attend one at a sanctuary in my area.

The Mass was not just translated our own language but we were encouraged to participate in the responses. In the Latin Mass only the altar server spoke the responses. We were just passive observers.

Good reason.

Also the priest faced the people instead of having his back to them. It was meant to be more of a gathering round. Jesus didn't turn his back on the apostles at the last supper.

Yes. But the Mass was being offered to God.

Hymns were introduced (initially of very variable quality) and musicians with guitars.

Right. My friends think it was more worship filled and the current Mass is too washed down.

Also the prayers of the Priest are different. I asked about this to a priest I know but he didn't feel like getting into it.

One problem that arose was that some trendy priests went too far in loosening up. They also dropped some of the mystery, like incense.
It varied a lot.

Agreed. Not good.

In many churches here the tabernacle was moved to the side of the sanctuary area, ostensibly so that the priest didn't have his back to it when saying Mass. I don't know whether that was done in our church where we are (we weren't here when all these changes were happenIng). But it is at the back of the sanctuary now.

Also to create a quiet environment for prayer.

Generally the old altar rails were done away with as part of the restructuring of the sanctuary. Communion was (and is) received in the hand whilst standing rather than just on he tongue, kneeling at the altar rails. The chalice was introduced for the laity not just the priest to give "the fullness of the sign" as per the Last Supper.

At least that is my experience.

No more chalice.
Would you like the altar rail?

 

[GodsGrace]

Agreed.

In our local church, the tabernacle remains at the centre of the altar.

Some folk may feel offended by their priest having his back to the tabernacle during Mass. It may help them to remember that during the Mass itself, their Lord - according to dogma - is very much present in the hands of the celebrant...and in their own, during communion.

I'm of the opinion that it should have remained at the altar.

What are people kneeling to if Jesus is not there?

I hope I could remember to ask a priest re having his back to the tabernacle.

 

[WIP]

I was wondering if Mungo and Walpole feel that changing the Latin Mass to common languages was harmful to the church.
My conservative Catholic friends feel it was damaging. I'm not sure why.

Here in Italy the tabernacle was moved from the altar area to a quiet part of the church. I can understand why they don't like this. Neither do I.

Also returning to receiving communion at the altar banister (forget what it's called), kneeling, is brought up at times. I don't know if it comes from the Vatican...I doubt it.

Our Mass was rarely in Latin but occasionally it was. When it was in Latin, even though I was younger I found that because I was not able to read or speak Latin, the Mass meant little to me.

Today, after understanding what Paul spoke of with regard to speaking in tongues and how an interpreter should be present, I've wondered if a similar problem could be found with a Mass conducted in Latin. What value is there when the congregants are unable to understand what is being said? It would be like me going to a Mass in Italy. I can't understand a bit of Italian.

 

[GodsGrace]

Our Mass was rarely in Latin but occasionally it was. When it was in Latin, even though I was younger I found that because I was not able to read or speak Latin, the Mass meant little to me.

Today, after understanding what Paul spoke of with regard to speaking in tongues and how an interpreter should be present, I've wondered if a similar problem could be found with a Mass conducted in Latin. What value is there when the congregants are unable to understand what is being said? It would be like me going to a Mass in Italy. I can't understand a bit of Italian.

It's not just the language that changed..
Many don't like the changes in the new Mass.
It's just difficult to pin point what they are.
A more liberal Mass for instance, as Mungo said.

Some attribute this to lower attendance.

 

[Mungo]

Yes. But the Mass was being offered to God.

Two different paradigms
1. Back to the people - leading the people to God
2. Facing the people - all gathered around the altar.

 

[Mungo]

Agreed. For this reason it was a good thing.
It was less universal...when travelling, for example, I couldn't understand the Mass.
Instead it used to be in Latin no matter where a person went. I have some friends that know how to follow the Mass in Latin and still attend one at a sanctuary in my area.

True but the loss of say a couple of times a year - if you holiday abroad - against the other 50 times a year when you can actually understand what is going on.

 

[Mungo]

No more chalice.

Several things were dropped during covid. But we are just coming back to normal apart from the chalice. I think that will come back soon.

Would you like the altar rail?

No I like the open sanctuary

 

[Mungo]

Right. My friends think it was more worship filled and the current Mass is too washed down.

I think that depends on how it is conducted.

I think there have been many improvements.

Firstly the priests prayers are spoken out (and microphones and the sound system help). The prayers used to be mumbled quietly. One of the prayers was even called "The Secret".

Secondly the Lectionary (readings) were totally revised so that we get a more coherent read through the Bible.

 

[Walpole]

I was wondering if Mungo and Walpole feel that changing the Latin Mass to common languages was harmful to the church.
My conservative Catholic friends feel it was damaging. I'm not sure why.

Here in Italy the tabernacle was moved from the altar area to a quiet part of the church. I can understand why they don't like this. Neither do I.

Also returning to receiving communion at the altar banister (forget what it's called), kneeling, is brought up at times. I don't know if it comes from the Vatican...I doubt it.

You are conflating a few things here, namely the new Mass as merely the changing of the Traditional Mass to the vernacular. The novus ordo is not the Latin Mass just in a vernacular language.

My preference is the Latin Mass. I believe it perfectly articulates the faith of the Church (lex orandi, lex credendi) with beauty and reverence due to Almighty God.

 

[WIP]

My preference is the Latin Mass. I believe it perfectly articulates the faith of the Church (lex orandi, lex credendi) with beauty and reverence due to Almighty God.

How does it do that any better than in a language that is understood by everyone?

 

[GodsGrace]

You are conflating a few things here, namely the new Mass as merely the changing of the Traditional Mass to the vernacular. The novus ordo is not the Latin Mass just in a vernacular language.

My preference is the Latin Mass. I believe it perfectly articulates the faith of the Church (lex orandi, lex credendi) with beauty and reverence due to Almighty God.

I don't believe I'm conflating, I just don't know the difference enough to have a solid opinion. Those that feel as you do feel it has driven many away, that it has less meaning.

I agree with you and go every now and then.
It used to be that the priest had to do a latin mass even if just one person asked for it.
The new Bishop wants to stop this. I do think this comes from Rome. The Santuario still does the Latin Mass. Many go and the church is full but it's a small church.