The Law: Fulfilled or Abolished?

[stovebolts]

I need to do better with this. Please share some examples of how I talk at you, so I can change this. I will change.

We can all do better at times in this area. Myself included.

Talking with somebody means you don't put them on trial. If you believe your faith is stronger than somebody else, then Paul says that he would quit eating meat, so that the one with lessor faith would not be caused to sin, because in the eyes of the one with lessor faith, certain things can be sin, and they would be sin to them. It's about showing grace toward others, especially our brothers in Christ.

As far as feast days and new moons and circumcision, Paul has a lot to say on these matters that unite the differing view parts of the Body of Christ. In short, if somebody wants to partake in these events, then thats a-ok. Nothing wrong with it at all. Nothing wrong with circumcision as a New Testament practice either until it is forced as a means into the Fold and Ryan has stated clearly that it's not a salvation issue, so there is no need to quote Galatians because it doesn't apply. If Ryan said, "You have to be circumcised to be a Christian", then Galatians would apply.

As far as Jesus being YHVH, here's a snipit of what I believe, then I shall go silent on the matter.

Genesis 1 is called an Elohist text while Genesis 2 is a Yawistic text. Some say YHVH can't be found in Genesis 1, but I say when you begin to understand Yud-Hey-Vod-Hey you will see YHVH in Gen 1... And Elohim Said, "" And it is this place that you will find Jesus.

Grace and Peace brother.

 

[stovebolts]

In order to obey what Jesus said here, you must disregard what was taught in the Law of Moses.

Brother, have you not heard what I've been writing? The "You have heard it said" comes from how Torah was taught. Jesus is giving the correct interpretation of Torah. [MENTION=11841]jasoncran[/MENTION] has my Ramban commentary on Torah and while studying Exodus, I found the conversation that links to Jesus words, "love your enemies", which lead me elsewhere in Torah which brought me to this very verse you used above about hating your enemies. Jesus is not giving a new commandment, he is giving the proper interpretation of a passage in Torah. I just want you to know that your jumping into a conversation that was being had well before Jesus came on scene and was continuing while Jesus was preaching.

I don't know where in the Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy or Numbers) that it teaches us to hate our enemies.

 

[JLB]

Jesus is not giving a new commandment, he is giving the proper interpretation of a passage in Torah.

Ok, could you please list the chapter and verse of the passage in the Torah that Jesus is giving the proper interpretation of.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am sure Paul could use some lessons in "kindness" from you as well, brother.


JLB

What I've always found interesting is that if Paul was in an on-line forum he would quickly find himself to be in violation of the TOS of any given forum, lol.

 

[Ryan]

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

I just highlighted what that whole passage, and what the whole circumcision argument was about. Being justified before Christ by our works. Impossible. Like I told you, I was lead to get baptized a few months ago, so I did. Was I still justified before that? Yes, you betcha. Same thing with circumcision, if one is lead to do so by the Lord, then God bless them, if not, they are still saved. you see:

Romans 4

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Justification by Faith Evidenced in Old Testament

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather <SUP class=crossreference value='(A)'></SUP>according to the flesh, has found? <SUP class=versenum>2 </SUP>For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but <SUP class=crossreference value='(B)'></SUP>not before God. <SUP class=versenum>3 </SUP>For what does the Scripture say? “<SUP class=crossreference value='(C)'></SUP>Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.†<SUP class=versenum>4 </SUP>Now to the one who <SUP class=crossreference value='(D)'></SUP>works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.

My desiring to get baptized was solely between me and God, not between me and other man. I would certainly never tell anyone someone must get circumcised, or they are any less of a believer. Besides, what is in their pants is their business, not mine.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Consider these verses -

43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' = Law of Moses

44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,

I am sorry brother, but the Law of Moses says to hate your enemies.

The Law of Christ says to love your enemies.

Jesus is teaching the opposite of the Law of Moses, not expounding on how to keep it.

In order to obey what Jesus said here, you must disregard what was taught in the Law of Moses.

I'm of the opinion that this is what Jesus was referring to:

"Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him and said to King Jehoshaphat, “Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the Lord and so bring wrath on yourself from the Lord? " (2 Chronicles 19:2 NASB)

The answer to the rhetorical question being, of course, 'no, you don't love those who hate the Lord (your enemy)'.

Yes, technically not in the law (the first five books of the OT), but surely based on God's prohibition against hanging with the enemies of Israel as if they were one and the same with Israel.

Love is the opposite from hate.

True in the kingdom of God. In the world it is said that love and hate are very close to one another (I just woke up, the exact phrase escapes me just now, lol). Which is true for worldly love--the love that covets and grasps and consumes others. Unlike God's kind of love that considers the well being of another at it's own expense. Human love grasps. God's love expends itself.

The whole entire animal sacrificial system and the Levitical priesthood with all the special food laws and clothing laws and feast days that were required are all invalid, and have vanished away at the cross.


JLB

Vanished, yet fulfilled, all at the same time. Only God could think of a way to 'get rid of something', but 'keep' it at the same time. I guess that's why he's God.

 

[Ryan]

I am sure Paul could use some lessons in "kindness" from you as well, brother.


JLB

What I've always found interesting is that if Paul was in an on-line forum he would quickly find himself to be in violation of the TOS of any given forum, lol.

Galatians 5:12 (CJB) | In Context | Whole Chapter


<SUP class=versenum>12 </SUP>I wish the people who are bothering you would go the whole way and castrate themselves!


Hmmm...good enough for Paul

 

[Jethro Bodine]

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

I just highlighted what that whole passage, and what the whole circumcision argument was about. Being justified before Christ by our works. Impossible. Like I told you, I was lead to get baptized a few months ago, so I did. Was I still justified before that? Yes, you betcha. Same thing with circumcision, if one is lead to do so by the Lord, then God bless them, if not, they are still saved. you see:

Romans 4

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Justification by Faith Evidenced in Old Testament

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather <SUP class=crossreference value='(A)'></SUP>according to the flesh, has found? <SUP class=versenum>2 </SUP>For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but <SUP class=crossreference value='(B)'></SUP>not before God. <SUP class=versenum>3 </SUP>For what does the Scripture say? “<SUP class=crossreference value='(C)'></SUP>Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” <SUP class=versenum>4 </SUP>Now to the one who <SUP class=crossreference value='(D)'></SUP>works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.

My desiring to get baptized was solely between me and God, not between me and other man. I would certainly never tell anyone someone must get circumcised, or they are any less of a believer. Besides, what is in their pants is their business, not mine.

I often say, the 'baptism saves' argument is nothing more than the New Covenant version of 'circumcision saves'.

Just as circumcision was a symbol of being in covenant with God, so baptism also is a symbol of relationship with God...and is just as commanded as circumcision was...but not in order to become slaves of men as some make baptism out to be (that is, the enslavement of denominational identification).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am sure Paul could use some lessons in "kindness" from you as well, brother.


JLB

What I've always found interesting is that if Paul was in an on-line forum he would quickly find himself to be in violation of the TOS of any given forum, lol.

Galatians 5:12 (CJB) | In Context | Whole Chapter


<sup class="versenum">12 </sup>I wish the people who are bothering you would go the whole way and castrate themselves!


Hmmm...good enough for Paul

Yes, that's exactly the quote I primarily had in mind, lol.

In another forum I announced to everyone that was going to be my standard response to all doctrines I didn't agree with:

"<sup class="versenum">12 </sup>...I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!" (Galatians 5:12 NIV)

Ryan, do you know what OT law Paul has in mind when he says this? It's in Deuteronomy if I'm not mistaken. He's not really using a middle-school insult to the Judaizers here. He has something very specific in mind as a necessary benefit for the church of this happening to the circumcision group.

 

[iLOVE]

The Law Points Us to Christ

Scripture: Galatians 3:24

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The Law of Moses was designed to show mankind his need for a Savior. We are not made righteous by the Law but by faith in Jesus Christ.

The law is still perfect and needed as a schoolmaster for those who do not understand the message of the cross.

 

[reba]

What I've always found interesting is that if Paul was in an on-line forum he would quickly find himself to be in violation of the TOS of any given forum, lol.

Hey

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What I've always found interesting is that if Paul was in an on-line forum he would quickly find himself to be in violation of the TOS of any given forum, lol.

Hey

Oh yeah? Well I wish you would go the whole way and......oh wait...

...never mind.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Law Points Us to Christ

Scripture: Galatians 3:24

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The Law of Moses was designed to show mankind his need for a Savior. We are not made righteous by the Law but by faith in Jesus Christ.

The law is still perfect and needed as a schoolmaster for those who do not understand the message of the cross.

So in your opinion, does the schoolmaster get fired, or do the students fulfill what they were taught by the schoolmaster? Or both?

 

[Ryan]

I am sure Paul could use some lessons in "kindness" from you as well, brother.


JLB

What I've always found interesting is that if Paul was in an on-line forum he would quickly find himself to be in violation of the TOS of any given forum, lol.

Galatians 5:12 (CJB) | In Context | Whole Chapter


<sup class="versenum">12 </sup>I wish the people who are bothering you would go the whole way and castrate themselves!


Hmmm...good enough for Paul

Yes, that's exactly the quote I primarily had in mind, lol.

In another forum I announced to everyone that was going to be my standard response to all doctrines I didn't agree with:

"<sup class="versenum">12 </sup>...I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!" (Galatians 5:12 NIV)

Ryan, do you know what OT law Paul has in mind when he says this? It's in Deuteronomy if I'm not mistaken. He's not really using a middle-school insult to the Judaizers here. He has something very specific in mind as a necessary benefit for the church of this happening to the circumcision group.

Deuteronomy 23:1 No one who is emasculated or has his male organ cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Galatians 5:12 (CJB) | In Context | Whole Chapter


<sup class="versenum">12 </sup>I wish the people who are bothering you would go the whole way and castrate themselves!


Hmmm...good enough for Paul

Yes, that's exactly the quote I primarily had in mind, lol.

In another forum I announced to everyone that was going to be my standard response to all doctrines I didn't agree with:

"<sup class="versenum">12 </sup>...I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!" (Galatians 5:12 NIV)

Ryan, do you know what OT law Paul has in mind when he says this? It's in Deuteronomy if I'm not mistaken. He's not really using a middle-school insult to the Judaizers here. He has something very specific in mind as a necessary benefit for the church of this happening to the circumcision group.

Deuteronomy 23:1 No one who is emasculated or has his male organ cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord.

Bravo!

I figured you might know the answer.

Paul's point being, he wishes the influence of the Judaizer's teaching would be removed from the assembly.

 

[reba]

Seems to me way to many of us want to be Pauls .... Of all the people Jesus walked and talked with there is just a handful who ' He had speak for Him...

We often learn more from those who do not want to be Pauls... those who speak of Him

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"...wounded in the stones..." (Deuteronomy 23:1)

Ouch.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Seems to me way to many of us want to be Pauls .... Of all the people Jesus walked and talked with there is just a handful who ' He had speak for Him...

We often learn more from those who do not want to be Pauls... those who speak of Him

Paul was definitely rough around the edges, lol. My pastor said he probably had a 'choleric' personality (of the four personalities).

I'd love to hear how Barnabas taught.
If you told me Barnabas wrote Hebrews, I'd believe you.

 

[iLOVE]

The Law Points Us to Christ

Scripture: Galatians 3:24

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The Law of Moses was designed to show mankind his need for a Savior. We are not made righteous by the Law but by faith in Jesus Christ.

The law is still perfect and needed as a schoolmaster for those who do not understand the message of the cross.

So in your opinion, does the schoolmaster get fired, or do the students fulfill what they were taught by the schoolmaster? Or both?

Most people put their faith in their works, (self-effort & performance) wanting the glory. Your works will eventually drop you. It is very difficult for a person to believe something they have no knowledge of. Many Christians do not understand the message of the cross. They have made the cross ineffective in their life. To make the Cross void is to cancel out the Cross benefits to you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Law Points Us to Christ

Scripture: Galatians 3:24

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The Law of Moses was designed to show mankind his need for a Savior. We are not made righteous by the Law but by faith in Jesus Christ.

The law is still perfect and needed as a schoolmaster for those who do not understand the message of the cross.

So in your opinion, does the schoolmaster get fired, or do the students fulfill what they were taught by the schoolmaster? Or both?

Most people put their faith in their works, (self-effort & performance) wanting the glory. Your works will eventually drop you. It is very difficult for a person to believe something they have no knowledge of. Many Christians do not understand the message of the cross. They have made the cross ineffective in their life. To make the Cross void is to cancel out the Cross benefits to you.

Many claim the problem in the church is people trying to earn their own salvation. There was a day I would have agreed with that, but now I think the problem is the exact opposite extreme--people thinking the faith that justifies all by itself doesn't have to do anything...because it justifies all by itself, not knowing that the faith that justifies all by itself is the faith that changes a person into an ever-increasing obedient person, not a lazy disobedient person who changes the grace of God into a license to not take obedience seriously. The grace of God was given to us to make us obey, not given so we can disobey with impunity. But that is what so many people think in the church.

So in the analogy of the schoolmaster, does the schoolmaster get laid off for the person who comes to Christ and no longer has to do what the schoolmaster instructed him/her to do?

Think of your third grade teacher. Does not being under her tutlage (Miss Vaughn in my case) mean I no longer have to do what she taught me to do? Or does it simply mean I am no longer under her insistence and drive to do what she taught me to do?