The Law

[JJsaint]

If the law had not been taken away including food regulations I find it hard to believe God would have used an untruth to represent the truth. What about I Tim.4?

1 Timothy 4:3-5:3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.


Meat is an old English word for food.
Words in the time of Paul writing the letters or Timothy may have meant something different than they do now.


''To sit at meat, to sit or recline at the table.'' - Webster's 1828


If unclean animals are ''sanctified by the word of God and prayer'' - then why can't people Just pray over something unclean today to make it clean? i.e Alcohol,Pornography etc etc


''every creature of God is good'' - Every creature IS good.


Part of Timothy may go with verse 1.


1 Timothy 4:1:Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


Which may say we shouldn't do certain things i.e this may be pagan or idolatry practices?


Now in Timothy 4:1 ''Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith''


Depart from the faith - and do these things i.e read 1 Timothy 4:3


This is falling away from the faith and doing things that should not be done.

 

[Stormcrow]

However, I find the law helpful in guiding my actions, because I want to avoid those unpleasant consequences.

Why?

But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. Romans 7:6 (ESV)

The Spirit frees us from the Law. Why would you want to be under bondage to it again, especially if you are a Gentile who was never under the Law in the first place???

Why are you adding to what Christ has already done for you???

 

[JJsaint]

Why?

But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. Romans 7:6 (ESV)

The Spirit frees us from the Law. Why would you want to be under bondage to it again, especially if you are a Gentile who was never under the Law in the first place???

Why are you adding to what Christ has already done for you???

Gentile?

Since when is gentile used to describe an individual person?

Gentile is used to describe Tribe,nations and people - not single individuals.

 

[Stormcrow]

Gentile?

Since when is gentile used to describe an individual person?

Gentile is used to describe Tribe,nations and people - not single individuals.

Quibble.

Gentile was also used to refer to those without the Law: the "uncircumcised."

The usage of the word changes nothing Paul wrote, which I cited above. Care to address that?

 

[JJsaint]

Quibble.

Gentile was also used to refer to those without the Law: the "uncircumcised."

The usage of the word changes nothing Paul wrote, which I cited above. Care to address that?

It does not describe an individual person - that is simply absurd.

Gentile in the NT with Strong's Exhaustive Concordance,Greek...

1484. ethnos eth'-nos probably from 1486; a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe; specially, a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually, by implication, pagan):--Gentile, heathen, nation, people.


Webster's 1828 defines gentile as one of the definitions...

In civil affairs, the denomination was given to all nations who were not Romans.

Care to address how Jesus and the Apostles would be referred to as gentiles(as they were not Romans)??

Genesis 12:2:And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Nation in that passage in Strong's Hebrew is translated...

1471 gowy go'-ee rarely (shortened) goy {go'-ee}; apparently from the same root as 1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence, a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts:--Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

It could have said ''And I will make of thee a great GENTILE''

Context.

John 18:35:Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?

Even Judea was referred to as GENTILE(nation)

As nation is 1484 in Strong's Greek.

 

[Webb]

JJSaint wrote on post 61: "If unclean animals are 'sanctified by the word of God and prayer' - then whiy can't people just pray over something unclean today and make it clean? i.e. Alcohol, Pornogdraphy etc etc."

Well JJ, FIRST you must find where God has "sanctified" alcohol and pornography etc. Can you do it??? I don't think so. If not all your praying over porn and strong will achieve nothing but wasted time.

Further, the meats in I Timothy 4:3 are identified in vs. 4 as creatures. The Bible is its own best commentary.

 

[Webb]

FC

You asked for 5, I've given you 1. Here are the remaining 4: II Cor. 3:7, 11, 13, 14.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If the law had not been taken away including food regulations I find it hard to believe God would have used an untruth to represent the truth.

I agree. Although I personally don't use Peter's vision to show that the law of unclean foods is no longer binding on the people of God it's clear that it makes no sense that God would use unclean food that remains unclean to illustrate how the uncleanness of the gentiles is now clean.

I am convinced that we are no longer bound by the laws of unclean foods by what Jesus himself said:

“Don’t you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him ‘unclean’? 19 For it doesn’t go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods “clean.”) (Mark 7: NIV1984)

This doesn't mean a person was not bound by the law of unclean foods during the time of the law. It means that there is nothing inherently unclean about the forbidden foods of the law in and of themselves that they should remain unclean in this New Covenant.

Unclean foods, like the sacrifices, serve as illustrations of greater, unseen spiritual truth. And like the sacrifices, once that spiritual truth is known the illustration can be laid aside in favor of the truth. But if a person can't accept that they should continue to avoid the unclean foods of the law for conscience sake.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why?

But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. Romans 7:6 (ESV)

The Spirit frees us from the Law. Why would you want to be under bondage to it again, especially if you are a Gentile who was never under the Law in the first place???

Why are you adding to what Christ has already done for you???

The bondage you speak of being the bondage of trying to be declared righteous through the 'old way' of performing the works of the law. A law of righteousness that the gentiles for the most part were ignorant about.

That old way of the law--a law that if the people of God kept would "be our righteousness" (Deut. 6:25 NIV1984)--has been shown for what it really is: an impossible way to be declared righteous, some of which has been made obsolete and no longer needed by what really does make a person righteous, faith in the blood of Christ.

 

[Stormcrow]

It does not describe an individual person - that is simply absurd.

Gentile in the NT with Strong's Exhaustive Concordance,Greek...

1484. ethnos eth'-nos probably from 1486; a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe; specially, a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually, by implication, pagan):--Gentile, heathen, nation, people.


Webster's 1828 defines gentile as one of the definitions...

In civil affairs, the denomination was given to all nations who were not Romans.

Care to address how Jesus and the Apostles would be referred to as gentiles(as they were not Romans)??

Genesis 12:2:And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Nation in that passage in Strong's Hebrew is translated...

1471 gowy go'-ee rarely (shortened) goy {go'-ee}; apparently from the same root as 1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence, a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts:--Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

It could have said ''And I will make of thee a great GENTILE''

Context.

John 18:35:Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?

Even Judea was referred to as GENTILE(nation)

As nation is 1484 in Strong's Greek.

gen·tile/ˈjentīl/

Adjective:Not Jewish.
Noun:A person who is not Jewish.
Synonyms:adjective. pagan
noun. pagan

Usage determines meaning. When used of a single person, Gentile means someone not Jewish.

It's absurd that you want to argue about this really insignificant point while refusing to address what Paul wrote about the law.

Whatever. :bigfrown

 

[Stormcrow]

The bondage you speak of being the bondage of trying to be declared righteous through the 'old way' of performing the works of the law. A law of righteousness that the gentiles for the most part were ignorant about.

Paul was dealing with the issue of Judaizers who were trying to get Gentile believers to be circumcised and follow the law when he wrote the following to the Galatians:

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9 (ESV)

O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness� Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.†So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.†Galatians 3:1-10 (ESV)

You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. Galatians 5:4 (ESV)

There is no justification in keeping the law. At all.

If anyone thinks they are still under the law, then they are still under the curse of the law, be they Jew or Gentile, then or now.

 

[Webb]

I agree with your last post to me. Meats was but incidental but does teach and clarify a truth the scripture makes clear elsewhere.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Regardles of multiple translations we are not left with Eph.2:15 alone to know the entire old law was taken away.

The Ephesians 2 passage has so much more meaning when one knows how the law discriminated according to gender and nationality, limiting one's access to God on that basis. But in Christ, no one is discriminated against, and all have equal access to God through Christ. No limitations of Mosaic law remain. Thus the meaning of the passages...

"25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:25-28 NIV1984)


"11 Here (in the new creation) there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all." (Colossians 3:11 NIV1984)



The Ephesians 2 passage is actually more directed to rabbinical judgments concerning the law of Moses and not so much the law itself if I'm not mistaken. But the reason rabbinical rule is no longer binding is because many of the actual laws of Moses the rabbinical rulings sought to interpret and uphold have themselves become obsolete. A point made more clear in Colossians 2.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Paul was dealing with the issue of Judaizers who were trying to get Gentile believers to be circumcised and follow the law when he wrote the following to the Galatians:

...A law of righteousness the gentiles were largely unfamiliar with prior to Christ, and instead were steeped in pagan idol worship. But a law of righteous which, sadly, the Judaizers were quick to impose on believing gentiles.

 

[Free]

It does not describe an individual person - that is simply absurd.

Gentile in the NT with Strong's Exhaustive Concordance,Greek...

1484. ethnos eth'-nos probably from 1486; a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe; specially, a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually, by implication, pagan):--Gentile, heathen, nation, people.


Webster's 1828 defines gentile as one of the definitions...

In civil affairs, the denomination was given to all nations who were not Romans.

Care to address how Jesus and the Apostles would be referred to as gentiles(as they were not Romans)??

Genesis 12:2:And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Nation in that passage in Strong's Hebrew is translated...

1471 gowy go'-ee rarely (shortened) goy {go'-ee}; apparently from the same root as 1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence, a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts:--Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

It could have said ''And I will make of thee a great GENTILE''

Context.

John 18:35:Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?

Even Judea was referred to as GENTILE(nation)

As nation is 1484 in Strong's Greek.

Why is the meaning of Gentile even an issue? Clearly it refers to an individual when it is singular and a nation or group of peoples when it is plural.

Mat 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

1Co 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

And so the plural is used in 91 verses. Clearly referring to many people or a nation.



Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

And so the singular is used in 2 verses. Clearly referring to an individual.

 

[Drew]

Why?

But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. Romans 7:6 (ESV)

The Spirit frees us from the Law. Why would you want to be under bondage to it again, especially if you are a Gentile who was never under the Law in the first place???

I entirely agree on both points. What is especially mystifying to me is that so many believers do not know that the Law was clearly given to Jews and was for Jews only. This is really quite clear in the scriptures.

Paul certainly believes this, arguing here that if one could be saved by the Law, then salvation would be limited to Jews:

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

Paul could not be more clear than he is here - the Law of Moses was only for Jews.

 

[JJsaint]

gen·tile/ˈjentīl/

Adjective:Not Jewish.
Noun:A person who is not Jewish.
Synonyms:adjective. pagan
noun. pagan

Usage determines meaning. When used of a single person, Gentile means someone not Jewish.

It's absurd that you want to argue about this really insignificant point while refusing to address what Paul wrote about the law.

Whatever. :bigfrown

Point out the word ''non Jew'' in the Bible?

Gentile is not used of a single person.

 

[JJsaint]

Why is the meaning of Gentile even an issue? Clearly it refers to an individual when it is singular and a nation or group of peoples when it is plural.

Mat 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

1Co 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

And so the plural is used in 91 verses. Clearly referring to many people or a nation.



Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

And so the singular is used in 2 verses. Clearly referring to an individual.

Romans 2:10:But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Gentile is...

1672. Hellen hel'-lane from 1671; a Hellen (Grecian) or inhabitant of Hellas; by extension a Greek-speaking person, especially a non-Jew:-- Gentile, Greek.

GREEK

 

[Free]

Romans 2:10:But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Gentile is...

1672. Hellen hel'-lane from 1671; a Hellen (Grecian) or inhabitant of Hellas; by extension a Greek-speaking person, especially a non-Jew:-- Gentile, Greek.

GREEK

Exactly, thank you. You've just proved yourself wrong.

 

[JJsaint]

Exactly, thank you. You've just proved yourself wrong.

How so?

How is Greek used in the singular?

''to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:''

All I see is that every Greek person can refer to themselves as a ''gentile'' no one else,who is not Greek.