The Law

[Former Christian]

The use of the English word Gentile translates one Hebrew word that means nations. It translates two Greek words, one meaning nations, the other meaning Greeks. These Hebrew and Greek words are also translated as heathen in the good ole KJV. A word not much used in the modern translations. But Gentile continues to be used in the modern translations. It’s become a part of the interpretive translation process for English bibles.

Common people. Let’s not get sidetracked by a red herring. Let’s get back on topic.

Why would God give one nation a Law or set of rules that includes dietary rules and moral rules that isn’t any good for the rest of the nations of the world?

FC

 

[Stormcrow]

Why would God give one nation a Law or set of rules that includes dietary rules and moral rules that isn’t any good for the rest of the nations of the world?

To set apart (sanctify) a "special people" whose sole purpose as a nation was to usher in Messiah.

The law had nothing to do with salvation, which is what Paul and the writer of Hebrews makes perfectly clear. It was there to teach the people whose job it was to bring forth Messiah why they needed Him. Their job was to spread the good news of His coming. Instead, they rejected Him to the entire world's benefit.

The law - as has been repeatedly shown here - did what it was intended to do. It's done. The "perfect" of Christ's kingdom has replaced the "imperfect" of the law.

We should be celebrating that rather than trying to go back to a system that was neither intended for Gentiles nor intended to survive His sacrifice.

If people are that gung-ho to live under a legalistic theocracy, Islam is the way to go.

Just sayin'.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am quite familiar with the passage from Romans 2.

I would say that when Paul refers to the Gentile "keeping the law", he is not really talking about the Law of Moses per se.

I'm confident that the law written on the heart of the person spoken about in Romans 2 is not the parts of the Mosaic law of worship, separation, and cleanliness, but rather the universal law of 'love your neighbor as yourself' as expressed in things like 'do not murder', 'do not steal', 'do not lie', etc. Wouldn't you agree? Those are the parts of the Mosaic law that condemns all of mankind and to which the entire world is accountable to, as Paul speaks about that universal condemnation of the law in Galatians 3.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why would God give one nation a Law or set of rules that includes dietary rules and moral rules that isn’t any good for the rest of the nations of the world?

FC

I don't believe for a minute that any person outside of the nation of Israel was under, and therefore condemned by, the first covenant laws of worship, cleanliness, and separation. God gave those to his covenant people, the nation of Israel, including anyone who attached themselves to the nation of Israel (to the extent that the law itself allowed). The basis of condemnation for those outside of the nation of God's people was/is the moral law. So it is in that sense that the Mosaic law, specifically the laws of temple, priest, and sacrifice (aka, the first covenant) were only for the people of God, not the world. I think that it is absolutely essential that one make this distinction of law to understand the role of the law in this New Covenant.

 

[Elijah674]

The use of the English word Gentile translates one Hebrew word that means nations. It translates two Greek words, one meaning nations, the other meaning Greeks. These Hebrew and Greek words are also translated as heathen in the good ole KJV. A word not much used in the modern translations. But Gentile continues to be used in the modern translations. It’s become a part of the interpretive translation process for English bibles.

Common people. Let’s not get sidetracked by a red herring. Let’s get back on topic.

Why would God give one nation a Law or set of rules that includes dietary rules and moral rules that isn’t any good for the rest of the nations of the world?

FC

______________

He wouldn't huh?! Even before the flood and any gentile, there were divisions between the clean + unclean that went into the ark.

Yet the best verse is seen in Gen. 26:5 for why God CALLED ABE IN THE FIRST PLACE!
Gen.26

[1] And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.
[2] And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:
[3] Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
[4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
[5] Because that Abraham [[[obeyed my voice,]]] and kept my charge, ***my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

And there were NO PEDIGREE Jew's yet! Even in Gen. 12:1-5 we find 'Gentil souls gotton in Haran'. + who in the world does one think that the Holy Spirit was STRIVING with along with Noah's preaching for 120 years of the pre/flood ones??? Gen. 6:3

--Elijah

 

[Drew]

Not all of us cut it out, some of us agree with Paul...

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. - NKJV

Paul is certainly not saying that we, or anybody, should follow the Law of Moses. While what Paul is really saying here is difficult to determine, we can be sure that he is not saying that the Law of Moses remains in force. He is quite clear at numerous other places in his letters - the written code of the Law of Moses has been set aside.

 

[Drew]

I'm confident that the law written on the heart of the person spoken about in Romans 2 is not the parts of the Mosaic law of worship, separation, and cleanliness, but rather the universal law of 'love your neighbor as yourself' as expressed in things like 'do not murder', 'do not steal', 'do not lie', etc. Wouldn't you agree? Those are the parts of the Mosaic law that condemns all of mankind and to which the entire world is accountable to, as Paul speaks about that universal condemnation of the law in Galatians 3.

I agree with everything you write here except the Galatians 3 bit. I believe that "law" in Galatians 3 is a reference to the Law of Moses, not to some universal law.

Nevertheless, I entirely agree with your principal point.

 

[Digger]

Romans 3:31 is speaking about how the righteous requirements of the law are established in the heart.

Gal 5:6 says that faith works by love.

Love fulfills the law.

Thus if we walk after the Spirit by a faith that works by love then we have the law established in our hearts and are not under the letter.

The letter kills but the Spirit brings life. This is what Jesus meant by having a righteousness that exceeds the scribes and Pharisees.

God looks at the heart which motivates the outside of the cup Not the other way around. That is why righteousness is by faith and not the law.

It is very simple.

Love God with all your heart soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself. Do that and you will not be fulfilling the lusts of the flesh but will be walking in the light and will be clean and pure.

 

[JJsaint]

Oy! Read the rest of the story!!!!

Early in the morning the chief priests with the elders and scribes and the whole Council, immediately held a consultation; and binding Jesus, they led Him away and delivered Him to Pilate. Mark 15:1 (NASB)

Pilate wasn't a Jew: he was a Roman...A GENTILE!!!

The [Roman] soldiers took Him away into the palace (that is, the Praetorium), and they *called together the whole Roman cohort. They *dressed Him up in purple, and after twisting a crown of thorns, they put it on Him; and they began to acclaim Him, "Hail, King of the Jews!" They kept beating His head with a reed, and spitting on Him, and kneeling and bowing before Him. Mark 15:16-19 (NASB)

Romans are the Gentiles discussed earlier in the book of Mark (and all the gospels!!!)

End of discussion!!!

Gentile does not mean non Jew as Jew in the NT denotes a geographic/national title i.e Judea/Judaean
....unless gentiles are non Judaean/s that would still not make sense.



Ephesians 2:11:Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised†by those who call themselves “the circumcision†(which is done in the body by human hands)— New International Version

How could someone be a non-Jew by birth?

In civil affairs, the denomination was given to all nations who were not Romans. - Websters 1828

Were Jesus and the Apostles,gentiles?

 

[Drew]

Gentile does not mean non Jew as Jew in the NT denotes a geographic/national title i.e Judea/Judaean
....unless gentiles are non Judaean/s that would still not make sense.



Ephesians 2:11:Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised†by those who call themselves “the circumcision†(which is done in the body by human hands)— New International Version

How could someone be a non-Jew by birth?

In civil affairs, the denomination was given to all nations who were not Romans. - Websters 1828

Were Jesus and the Apostles,gentiles?

1. The term "Gentile" denotes a person who is not a member of the 12 tribes - if you are not a member of the 12 tribes, you are a Gentile;

2. While the term "Jew" can be used to refer specifically to a member of the tribe of Judah, it is very often (e.g. by Paul) used to refer to a person who is a member of the 12 tribes;

3. One can, of course, be born as a "gentile".

 

[Drew]

Gentile does not mean non Jew.....

From wikipedia (I added the emphasis):

The term Gentile (from Latin gentilis, by the French "gentil", female: "gentille", meaning of or belonging to a clan or tribe) refers to non-Israelite peoples or nations in English translations of the Bible. Latin and subsequently English translators selectively used the term gentiles when the context for the base term "peoples" or "nations", Hebrew, גוי (goy) and נכרי (nokhri) in the Hebrew Bible and the Greek word ἔθνη (éthnē) in the New Testament, indicated non-Israelite peoples or nations. The term gentiles is derived from Latin, used for contextual translation, and not an original Hebrew or Greek word from the Bible. Following Christianization of the Roman Empire, the general implication of the word gentile became "non-Jew".

 

[JJsaint]

1. The term "Gentile" denotes a person who is not a member of the 12 tribes - if you are not a member of the 12 tribes, you are a Gentile;

2. While the term "Jew" can be used to refer specifically to a member of the tribe of Judah, it is very often (e.g. by Paul) used to refer to a person who is a member of the 12 tribes;

3. One can, of course, be born as a "gentile".

How can you be born a gentile if Jew denotes a geographic/national address?
Can you be born not belonging to a certain geographic location?

Genesis 25:23:And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

Nations in Strong's Hebrews is defined as.....

1471 gowy go'-ee rarely (shortened) goy {go'-ee}; apparently from the same root as 1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence, a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts:--Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

Jacob and Esau - are they gentiles? as nations could have been gentiles the translators only used the words that connected with the context...
'' Two GENTILES are in thy womb''

Genesis 12:2:And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

The same meaning as above.

Was Abraham to be a ''a great GENTILE'' ?


The word Jew is not used for someone of the twelve Tribes - go back in the first five books of Moses and see where Israel and Jew are used interchangeably - no where!
Jew is a slang term.

 

[JJsaint]

From wikipedia (I added the emphasis):

The term Gentile (from Latin gentilis, by the French "gentil", female: "gentille", meaning of or belonging to a clan or tribe) refers to non-Israelite peoples or nations in English translations of the Bible. Latin and subsequently English translators selectively used the term gentiles when the context for the base term "peoples" or "nations", Hebrew, גוי (goy) and נכרי (nokhri) in the Hebrew Bible and the Greek word ἔθνη (éthnē) in the New Testament, indicated non-Israelite peoples or nations. The term gentiles is derived from Latin, used for contextual translation, and not an original Hebrew or Greek word from the Bible. Following Christianization of the Roman Empire, the general implication of the word gentile became "non-Jew".

In civil affairs, the denomination was given to all nations who were not Romans. - Webster's 1828

Were Jesus and the Apostles,Gentiles?

 

[Free]

In civil affairs, the denomination was given to all nations who were not Romans. - Webster's 1828

Were Jesus and the Apostles,Gentiles?

I'm going to suggest that you stop referring to Webster's 1828 (why you keep doing so is beyond me), and go with the accepted Hebrew and Greek definitions, that is, the words as the writers of Scripture meant them.

I don't know how you came up with that counter-argument as clearly that is not what Drew has said. Jesus and the Apostles were Jews.

 

[Free]

How can you be born a gentile if Jew denotes a geographic/national address?
Can you be born not belonging to a certain geographic location?

Genesis 25:23:And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

Nations in Strong's Hebrews is defined as.....

1471 gowy go'-ee rarely (shortened) goy {go'-ee}; apparently from the same root as 1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence, a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts:--Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

Jacob and Esau - are they gentiles? as nations could have been gentiles the translators only used the words that connected with the context...
'' Two GENTILES are in thy womb''

Genesis 12:2:And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

The same meaning as above.

Was Abraham to be a ''a great GENTILE'' ?


The word Jew is not used for someone of the twelve Tribes - go back in the first five books of Moses and see where Israel and Jew are used interchangeably - no where!
Jew is a slang term.

Here you argument is completely in error. You are sticking to only one definition of 'nation' as given by Strong's and ignoring the rest. That is simply not how things are done. Context determines the meaning. You just cannot simply replace 'nation' with 'Gentile' and think you have made some point.

 

[Free]

Is there a reason why the definitions of "Jew" and "Gentile" are even being discussed? Is it relevant to the discussion? If not, it needs to stop.

 

[JJsaint]

I'm going to suggest that you stop referring to Webster's 1828 (why you keep doing so is beyond me), and go with the accepted Hebrew and Greek definitions, that is, the words as the writers of Scripture meant them.

I don't know how you came up with that counter-argument as clearly that is not what Drew has said. Jesus and the Apostles were Jews.

Use a strong's concordance - the word Jew has meanings.

JUDEAEAN.
Jesus and the Apostles were Judean.


Were Jesus and the Apostles Romans?????
If they were not Romans,they were Gentiles,is there any way around that?

 

[JJsaint]

Here you argument is completely in error. You are sticking to only one definition of 'nation' as given by Strong's and ignoring the rest. That is simply not how things are done. Context determines the meaning. You just cannot simply replace 'nation' with 'Gentile' and think you have made some point.

THEY MEAN THE EXACT SAME THING!!!!!!!!!!!!

Use a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance.

 

[Free]

THEY MEAN THE EXACT SAME THING!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, they do not. I suggest you learn how to use Strong's properly.

 

[Free]

Use a strong's concordance - the word Jew has meanings.

JUDEAEAN.
Jesus and the Apostles were Judean.


Were Jesus and the Apostles Romans?????
If they were not Romans,they were Gentiles,is there any way around that?

Firstly, they were not Romans and they were not Gentiles. I have no idea how you can even argue that.

Secondly, what does this have to do with the topic?? You have another thread for this already.

I am not going to discuss this further unless you can show how it is necessary for this topic.