The Law

[Drew]

Is there a reason why the definitions of "Jew" and "Gentile" are even being discussed? Is it relevant to the discussion? If not, it needs to stop.

Good point - I will let the issue drop.

 

[JJsaint]

Firstly, they were not Romans and they were not Gentiles. I have no idea how you can even argue that.

Secondly, what does this have to do with the topic?? You have another thread for this already.

I am not going to discuss this further unless you can show how it is necessary for this topic.

Firstly, they were not Romans and they were not Gentiles. I have no idea how you can even argue that.

If they were not Romans then Websters defines them as gentiles.
Read the definition.

That said,we'll go back to the original topic.

 

[Free]

Good point - I will let the issue drop.

I may have been a bit hasty, so please don't drop it altogether, unless you aren't interested in pursuing it. There is a thread here: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=41255

If this misuse of Strong's and Webster is being used to redefine to whom the Law applies, then it is relevant and should be dealt with.

However, for this thread, the biblical definitions of Jew and Gentile are what will be used, as they should always be in theological discussion. The biblical meanings being at least close to the following:

1. The term "Gentile" denotes a person who is not a member of the 12 tribes - if you are not a member of the 12 tribes, you are a Gentile;

2. While the term "Jew" can be used to refer specifically to a member of the tribe of Judah, it is very often (e.g. by Paul) used to refer to a person who is a member of the 12 tribes;

3. One can, of course, be born as a "gentile".

From wikipedia (I added the emphasis):

The term Gentile (from Latin gentilis, by the French "gentil", female: "gentille", meaning of or belonging to a clan or tribe) refers to non-Israelite peoples or nations in English translations of the Bible. Latin and subsequently English translators selectively used the term gentiles when the context for the base term "peoples" or "nations", Hebrew, גוי (goy) and נכרי (nokhri) in the Hebrew Bible and the Greek word ἔθνη (éthnē) in the New Testament, indicated non-Israelite peoples or nations. The term gentiles is derived from Latin, used for contextual translation, and not an original Hebrew or Greek word from the Bible. Following Christianization of the Roman Empire, the general implication of the word gentile became "non-Jew".

Any disagreement with that needs to be in the "Gentile in the New Testament" thread.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree with everything you write here except the Galatians 3 bit. I believe that "law" in Galatians 3 is a reference to the Law of Moses, not to some universal law.

Nevertheless, I entirely agree with your principal point.

Actually the reference I was making is found in Romans 3...my bad.

The point is, the laws that condemn all of mankind, whether they actually know about the written law of Moses or not, are the laws 'do not murder', 'do not steal', etc., not 'keep Sabbath', 'Sacrifice in the one appointed place', etc.

So it is in that sense that the first covenant was only for the Israelites. The world was not condemned by Mosaic laws about worship during the time of the law. The Israelites were. But the world was condemned by moral laws...whether they actually knew about them in the law of Moses or not.

 

[John 8:32]

Paul is certainly not saying that we, or anybody, should follow the Law of Moses. While what Paul is really saying here is difficult to determine, we can be sure that he is not saying that the Law of Moses remains in force. He is quite clear at numerous other places in his letters - the written code of the Law of Moses has been set aside.

Kinda puts him at odds with Christ and John...

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ - NKJV

Mat 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good[a] Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good?[b] No one is good but One, that is, God.[c] But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’[d] and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ” - NKJV

Christ names some of these commandments to show He is speaking of the Ten Commandments, not some new or different ones.

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

2 John 6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.


1 John 3:4...

New International Version (©1984)
Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.
New Living Translation (©2007)
Everyone who sins is breaking God's law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God.
English Standard Version (©2001)
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
International Standard Version (©2008)
Everyone who keeps living in sin also practices disobedience. In fact, sin is disobedience.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
But whoever commits sin commits evil, for sin is entirely evil.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Those who live sinful lives are disobeying God. Sin is disobedience.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
American King James Version
Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. American Standard Version
Every one that doeth sin doeth also lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. Douay-Rheims Bible
Whosoever committeth sin commmitteth also iniquity; and sin is iniquity.

Now with this in mind...

Ezek 28:15...

New International Version (©1984)
You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.
New Living Translation (©2007)
"You were blameless in all you did from the day you were created until the day evil was found in you.
English Standard Version (©2001)
You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Your behavior was perfect from the time you were created, until evil was found in you.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till iniquity was found in you.
American King James Version
You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till iniquity was found in you. American Standard Version
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till unrighteousness was found in thee. Douay-Rheims Bible
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day of thy creation, until iniquity was found in thee.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Interestingly enough, the one who originated iniquity (lawlessness) is the arch enemy of God. Ever wonder where this animosity against God's law comes from? Comes from Satan who influences the carnal (fleshly) mind.

Rom 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. - NKJV

 

[John 8:32]

All of the law, what is called Moses law, ceremonial and that of the priesthood was taken away. I am willing to discuss this with anyone in the one-on-one forum.

Let me get a gun, rob your house and rape your wife and see if that is perfectly acceptable since there is no law. After all, if the law is taken away, it is not sin, for sin is...

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

 

[Drew]

Kinda puts him at odds with Christ and John...

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

Its not this simple.

Jesus was a product of his times and culture and I suggest that we in the modern west have been a little careless in understanding the implications of this. On a surface reading, Matthew 5:18 is indeed a challenge to those of us who think that, at least in a certain specific sense, the Law of Moses has been retired. Those who hold the opposing view have their own challenges to face, such as Ephesians 2:15 (and Romans 7) which, to me, unambiguously declare the abolition of the Law of Moses, at least in terms of “rules and regulationsâ€.

Here is Matthew 5:17-19 in the NASB:

Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

How can one read this text and possibly think that the prescriptions of the Law of Moses do not remain in force, given that heaven and earth are still here?

I think that there is a way to faithfully read this text and still claim that Law of Moses was retired 2000 years ago as Paul seems to so forcefully argue that it was (e.g. Eph 2:15). My proposal hinges on the assertion that in Hebrew culture apocalyptic “end of the world†language was commonly used in a specifically metaphorical mode for the specific purposes of investing commonplace events with their theological significance.

This is not mere speculation – we have concrete evidence that this was so. Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. There are other examples of such metaphorical “end of the world†imagery being used to describe much more “mundane†events within the present space-time manifold.

So it is possible that Jesus is not referring to the destruction of matter, space, and time as the criteria for the retirement of the Law. But what might He mean here? What is the real event for which “heaven and earth passing away†is an apocalyptic metaphor.

I would appeal to the phrase “until all is accomplished†and point the reader to Jesus’ proclamation that “It is accomplished!†as He breathed His last on the Cross. Perhaps this is what Jesus is referring to. I believe that seeing it that way allows us to take Paul at his word in his many statements which clearly denote the work of Jesus as the point in time at which Law of Moses was retired.

 

[Drew]

Let me get a gun, rob your house and rape your wife and see if that is perfectly acceptable since there is no law. After all, if the law is taken away, it is not sin, for sin is...

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

The author of 1 John is not saying that the Law of Moses is still in effect - that would contradict the clear teaching of Paul on this matter. Here is the text from the NASB;

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness

Note that this certainly does not appear to be a specific reference to the Law of Moses, but rather is a reference to "lawlessness" in general. So what the writer is saying here really does not strengthen any argument that the Law of Moses continues to be in force.

It (the Law of Moses) rather clearly is not in force anymore, as Paul asserts here in Ephesians 2:

For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the [l]barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might (reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross,....

People will try to make the case that Paul is not speaking of the Law of Moses here. But that cannot really work precisely because it is clearly the Law of Moses, which was for Jews only, that functions to separate Jew from Gentile.

And it is therefore through its abolition that any special status for Jews, which for them was wrapped up in the ethnic specificity of the Law of Moses, is doany away with.

 

[Webb]

Hi John8:32

I don't think you are "rightly dividing the word of truth". Would you like to take this to the one-on-one?

 

[Drew]

Here is Matthew 5:17-19 in the NASB:

Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

I believe it is absolutely critical to try read these words through the eyes of a first century Jew, not the eyes of a 21st century westerner. Jesus lived, ministered, and spoke within a cultural setting vastly different from the 21st western setting.

The Jews of Jesus' day believed (and this is supported in the scriptures) that the temple in Jerusalem was quite literally the place where heaven and earth overlapped.

So when Jesus speaks of heaven and earth passing away, I suggest that, consistent with many other things Jesus said and did, that He is not referring to some cosmic "end of the world", but is rather referring to the end of the age of the Temple.

And, of course, when the temples goes, the law goes, inasmuch as the two are inextricably intertwined.

We need to honour the cultural setting in which Jesus uttered this famous teaching. Many, perhaps most, simply ignore the cultural specificities and read this as some kind of statement that the law will persist until basically the end of time.

Such a reading simply does not honour the setting in which Jesus spoke, not least for the reason mentioned in this present post, and not least for the reason in my earlier post - that apocalyptic "end of the world" language refers to socio-political change, and not to a literal end of the world scenario.

It is time, I suggest, to think about such texts in an appropriately sophisticated and nuanced manner.

 

[Elijah674]

The author of 1 John is not saying that the Law of Moses is still in effect - that would contradict the clear teaching of Paul on this matter. Here is the text from the NASB;

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness

Note that this certainly does not appear to be a specific reference to the Law of Moses, but rather is a reference to "lawlessness" in general. So what the writer is saying here really does not strengthen any argument that the Law of Moses continues to be in force.

It (the Law of Moses) rather clearly is not in force anymore, as Paul asserts here in Ephesians 2:

For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the [l]barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might (reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross,....

People will try to make the case that Paul is not speaking of the Law of Moses here. But that cannot really work precisely because it is clearly the Law of Moses, which was for Jews only, that functions to separate Jew from Gentile.

And it is therefore through its abolition that any special status for Jews, which for them was wrapped up in the ethnic specificity of the Law of Moses, is doany away with.

Just wondering if you are up to knowing the difference between the Eternal Law of God & the Gal. 3:19 added ones that come by Moses pen? (or compare Rev. 22:18-19 + Heb. 6:6 forum)

Exod. 16 has both seen.

[4] Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
....

[22] And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.
[23] And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
[24] And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.

[25] And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.
[26] Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.

[27] And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.
[28] And the LORD said unto Moses, [[[How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?]]]

And only one TEST is seen to break them ALL! James 2:10 And where did this Law come from?? Moses or God's pen + WORD??

This testing came directly from the forth Commandment.

Deut. 31 has that WORD OF GOD as well!
[9] And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.
(and most know what was, is & eternally has been kept INSIDE GOD'S ARK! And it has nothing to do with Moses added law's!)
...
[24] And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of [[this law in a book]], until they were finished,
[25] That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark [of the covenant of the LORD], saying,
[26] Take [[this book of the law]], and [[[put it in the side]]] of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

And if one does not know what has Eternally been [[[inside of the Ark]]] in Heavens Throne Room of which the 10 Commands were only an exact copy of, let me know!

--Elijah

 

[JJsaint]

Hi I Just read an article title ''should Christians love the wicked'' and it had some info about the law.
I'll try and explain with Bible verses as best I can.


Matthew 19:16-19:
16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.




Matthew 22:36-39:
36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.



Matthew 22 deals with the Ten commandments - Jesus puts more emphasis on the commandments relating to men
v 39 - Is not a new commandment.


In Matthew 19 Jesus states some of the Ten commandments - obviously they are not taken away.






Exodus 20:12-17:12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13Thou shalt not kill.
14Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15Thou shalt not steal.
16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.


If you don't love your neighbor - you cannot fulfill these commandments - can you?




1 John 2:3-4:3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


Galatians 3:12:And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.


Galatians 5:14:For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Romans 13:8-10:

8Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

 

[Elijah674]

Hi I Just read an article title ''should Christians love the wicked'' and it had some info about the law.
I'll try and explain with Bible verses as best I can.


Matthew 19:16-19:
16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.




Matthew 22:36-39:
36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.



Matthew 22 deals with the Ten commandments - Jesus puts more emphasis on the commandments relating to men
v 39 - Is not a new commandment.


In Matthew 19 Jesus states some of the Ten commandments - obviously they are not taken away.






Exodus 20:12-17:12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13Thou shalt not kill.
14Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15Thou shalt not steal.
16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.


If you don't love your neighbor - you cannot fulfill these commandments - can you?




1 John 2:3-4:3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


Galatians 3:12:And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.


Galatians 5:14:For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Romans 13:8-10:

8Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Hi, good post! Very True also. There are two tables of the Covenant. (two tables of stone in ) See if you can find what the Love to God ones are, and then our duty to all mankind? Read the First four & then read the last six. Yet over in James 2:8-12 we see in verse 10 that when any one is knowingly broken ALL are Broken.

Deut. 5
[22] These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
[23] And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders; ...

--Elijah

 

[bahamas242]

This is very true. So how is it then, that Christians dismiss the Sabbath altogether?

Hi, good post! Very True also. There are two tables of the Covenant. (two tables of stone in ) See if you can find what the Love to God ones are, and then our duty to all mankind? Read the First four & then read the last six. Yet over in James 2:8-12 we see in verse 10 that when any one is knowingly broken ALL are Broken.

Deut. 5
[22] These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
[23] And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders; ...

--Elijah

 

[Webb]

Very simple, "Christians dismiss the Sabbath" because the NT church dismissed it (to put it in you terminology).

 

[Drew]

In Matthew 19 Jesus states some of the Ten commandments - obviously they are not taken away.

At the time Jesus uttered those words, the Law was indeed still in force. But that does not mean that the Law remained in force after His death and resurrection.

Paul is quite clear: The Law of Moses is retired.

The Law of Moses points to the cross; The Law is part of God's plan for the redemption of the world. But when the part that the Law had to play was completed, the Law is "written out" of the script.

To say that the Law of Moses remains in force is to entirely miss the flow of the Biblical story.

The end of the Law........Christ

These are Paul's words, not mine.

 

[Former Christian]

Jethro Bodine

So it is in that sense that the first covenant was only for the Israelites. The world was not condemned by Mosaic laws about worship during the time of the law. The Israelites were. But the world was condemned by moral laws...whether they actually knew about them in the law of Moses or not.

I fail to see how Gentiles could not be held accountable for one part of the Law they didn’t know about, while being held accountable for another part of the same Law they still didn’t know about.

FC

 

[Former Christian]

Drew

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven
Its not this simple.

Jesus was a product of his times and culture and I suggest that we in the modern west have been a little careless in understanding the implications of this. On a surface reading, Matthew 5:18 is indeed a challenge to those of us who think that, at least in a certain specific sense, the Law of Moses has been retired. Those who hold the opposing view have their own challenges to face, such as Ephesians 2:15 (and Romans 7) which, to me, unambiguously declare the abolition of the Law of Moses, at least in terms of “rules and regulationsâ€.

And here I always thought that Christians believed that Jesus was God. Most of them anyway. When what they actually believed is that Jesus was just a man like any other. Very enlightening.

In the view I present, as a non-Trinitarian no less, Jesus was not a product of his times and culture. He was taught of God, not his culture. What he presented was from God, not his culture. In fact, what Jesus taught was counter culture, against the culture of his times. In human terms, one could say that Jesus was a cultural rebel, something like the American hippies in the 1960’s.

I think that there is a way to faithfully read this text and still claim that Law of Moses was retired 2000 years ago as Paul seems to so forcefully argue that it was (e.g. Eph 2:15). My proposal hinges on the assertion that in Hebrew culture apocalyptic “end of the world†language was commonly used in a specifically metaphorical mode for the specific purposes of investing commonplace events with their theological significance.

Making the bible into a metaphorical book, like a cultural book, does solve any possibility of there being biblical discrepancy. At least in the eyes of the one who interprets metaphorically and culturally. But it solves it by making the bible the writings of men. Theistic and Progressive Evolutionists, in order to believe in Evolution, turn the Genesis account into a metaphor. There is one little problem with turning that account into a metaphor. And that is, being as the rest of the bible is based on those first chapters in Genesis, there’s no reason to think that the rest of the bible isn’t simply a metaphor as well. Thus you have Jesus Christ as a means of redemption being simply a metaphor. Whether the person even existed or not is irrelevant. It’s the metaphor that’s important. Just as whether God created the earth in a certain way, or even exists, is irrelevant. It’s the metaphor that’s important.

The point is that the only thing that considering what any part of what the bible says as metaphorical, is that any other part of it can be seen as metaphorical as well. Personal opinion becomes the determining factor as to what’s metaphorical and what isn’t. Nothing to base one’s life on. Just fun for some to banter different metaphorical views around.

Even the moral law is just a metaphor and certainly not something binding on that account alone. No reason to change one’s view from one’s secular cultural morality. Even the Lord’s Table no longer needs to be practiced in any physical sense, since it’s just a metaphor for a “Spiritual†idea.

But you have a point if the bible isn’t actually to be considered inspired Scripture in the usual Christian sense. Rather just a bunch of documents put together by men for what ever reason that’s really unclear simply because it depends on which men are using the bible.

I would appeal to the phrase “until all is accomplished†and point the reader to Jesus’ proclamation that “It is accomplished!†as He breathed His last on the Cross. Perhaps this is what Jesus is referring to. I believe that seeing it that way allows us to take Paul at his word in his many statements which clearly denote the work of Jesus as the point in time at which Law of Moses was retired.

The metaphorical/cultural view is interesting. Of that there’s no doubt. But you have to take into consideration that the moral law, that’s a part of the Law, would not automatically be separated from the Law as is often done in Christianity. What Paul says in Ephesians 2:15 is not limited in any way. It’s a blanket statement as a reason for peace between Jew and Gentile. Ignoring the JJsaint theory that Jew and Gentile are somehow synonymous terms.

If it can be said that the Law is retired, there is no reason to think that didn’t also include the moral law, the dietary laws, or any other aspects of the Law. When the tabernacle ritual was fulfilled in Christ, it must be considered that if we’re talking of a law that was only for the Jews, the rest of the Law of Moses was fulfilled as well. The fulfillment was finished in totality.

Which leads to the conclusion that the idea that sin as a transgression of the Law, the Law of Moses, is meaningless for the 21st century reader. Each culture has it’s own laws now, and sin must be determined accordingly. The laws of the Cannibal determines sin for them. And Cannibalism isn’t a sin according to their laws, as it might be under American jurisprudence. And Cannibalism itself isn’t actually dealt with under American Law, so far as I know. What is dealt with is the murder of the person who was cannibalized. So that in America, the sin is not Cannibalism per se, though some might find it revolting to personal sensibility. Rather, the sin to be punished is murder.

I don’t think you realize how close you and Stormcrow are to proving the non-Christian view. Not to yourselves of course. But an open mind can see many things.

FC

 

[Former Christian]

Drew

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
The author of 1 John is not saying that the Law of Moses is still in effect - that would contradict the clear teaching of Paul on this matter. Here is the text from the NASB;

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness

Note that this certainly does not appear to be a specific reference to the Law of Moses, but rather is a reference to "lawlessness" in general. So what the writer is saying here really does not strengthen any argument that the Law of Moses continues to be in force.

It (the Law of Moses) rather clearly is not in force anymore, as Paul asserts here in Ephesians 2:

I fail to see the nuance between the KJV translation and the NASB translation that leads you to think there is any real difference between “transgression of the law†and “lawlessnessâ€. Nevertheless, now all you have to consider is who determines this lawlessness in general. It couldn’t be God, since the only law he determined was the Law of Moses. And that’s been abrogated.

And as you consider that, consider also a Christian denomination that makes no bones that the denominational leadership determines the law for that denomination. Which gives it the authority to say that these moral laws, that happen to be the same as the moral law in the Law of Moses, are valid, and these other moral laws, that also happen to be the same as the moral law in the Law of Moses, are not valid.

People will try to make the case that Paul is not speaking of the Law of Moses here. But that cannot really work precisely because it is clearly the Law of Moses, which was for Jews only, that functions to separate Jew from Gentile.
And it is therefore through its abolition that any special status for Jews, which for them was wrapped up in the ethnic specificity of the Law of Moses, is doany away with.

This is a good point that needs to be addressed. And it is what I was trying to point out originally. Eph 2:15 does in fact refer to the Law that was given by God, the Law of Moses, the Law recorded in the Torah. What other Law could Paul be referring to? And Paul makes a clear statement, on the surface at least, that this Law has been “retired†as you call it.

Generally, Christians who claim that the Law is not in effect for the Christian will mitigate the view by separating the moral law from the rest of the Law that has been abrogated. When in fact there is no logical reason for doing so. And then they proceed to judge, gays and abortionist for example, as being against the moral Law of God, again with no logical reason for doing so. Especially in modern America wherein the Gay lifestyle and practicing abortion is not a sin under American jurisprudence. Which is the only Law practically speaking available to the American Christian who considers the Law of Moses to have been abrogated.

FC

 

[Former Christian]

Drew

I believe it is absolutely critical to try read these words through the eyes of a first century Jew, not the eyes of a 21st century westerner. Jesus lived, ministered, and spoke within a cultural setting vastly different from the 21st western setting.

I wish you would consider the fact, THE FACT, that the only eyes we in the 21st century have are not the eyes of a 1st century Jew. And I wish you and Stormcrow would consider the fact, THE FACT, that when you say we should consider something through the eyes of a 1st century Jew, it is through your own 21st century eyes you are determining what the eyes of a 1st century Jew saw. If it’s a fact you can’t see, then, as you were.

FC