The MYTH of condemned men being the ELECT...

[Eventide]

Hey, if the other thread can go on and one... let's have a sister thread concerning the false premise that the other thread is based upon..

Many Christians have been taught that THEY are the elect of God.. and this might seem fairly obvious to the passive reader who might not have considered WHY a person (like a Christian) is referred to as the elect in scripture.. although upon close examination of the scriptures we can see that WE are not the elect of God but rather that the Lord Jesus Christ IS the elect of God and that we are the elect IN HIM..

That's the key here... IN HIM..

Christians are members of the BODY OF CHRIST.. old things are passed away and all things are become NEW IN CHRIST.. and because you're IN CHRIST, you are the elect, not because YOU ARE, but rather because HE IS.

 

[Eventide]

I find it amazing that an entire system of theology can be built upon this one false premise.. that certain individuals are the elect of God and that all others have no hope..

How can the simplicity of the gospel be distorted into such unbiblical theology as Calvinism.. ?

Because it's taught by men and when man is held in higher esteem than the truth of the bible itself.. then all you have is a system of theology based upon a man's opinion..

How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

 

[Elijah674]

I find it amazing that an entire system of theology can be built upon this one false premise.. that certain individuals are the elect of God and that all others have no hope..

How can the simplicity of the gospel be distorted into such unbiblical theology as Calvinism.. ?

Because it's taught by men and when man is held in higher esteem than the truth of the bible itself.. then all you have is a system of theology based upon a man's opinion..

How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

Truely Amazing huh? But then comes another of satan's false 'teaching' by his large Broadway crew that God did indeed lie & that satan told the truth! Gen. 3

--Elijah

 

[Eventide]

Truely Amazing huh? But then comes another of satan's false 'teaching' by his large Broadway crew that God did indeed lie & that satan told the truth! Gen. 3

--Elijah

As usual Elijah.. I have no idea what you're talking about.. who says that God lied and that satan told the truth ?

 

[Sam21]

I am reminded of what Hitler said,"if you are going to tell a lie then tell a really big lie,people are more likely to believe a really big lie than a small one". The lie that God hand picked certain persons to be saved and others to be lost before they were even born flies in the face of EVERYTHING taught in the bible from cover to cover, it is so obviously false that it is ridiculous. The actual absurdity that any christian with biblical knowledge would believe such a thing makes it difficult to comprehend...you feel like throwing up your hands and screaming, READ THE BIBLE! The entire story of the bible is that God made man with the ability to recognize right from wrong and the ability to chose and that God holds man accountable for the choice he makes..duh,duh, and double duh.

 

[Eventide]

That's how I feel Sam.. and I first heard of Calvinism about 20 years ago and even then it seemed ridiculous to me.. although over time I have come to see Unconditional Election as one of the more subtle lies of Satan..

The bible does speak of people being the elect of God.. although it seems that nobody takes the extra effort to see WHY that is the case.. ie, why are men referred to in the scriptures as the elect of God..?

In light of all the biblical evidence it should be fairly obvious to see that WE are not the elect, but rather that Christ is and that we are the elect IN HIM..

The reason I think that this is subtle is because I think that the main reason for this lie is to take the focus away from the Lord Jesus Christ and to mis place it upon condemned men.. as all in Adam are under the same condemnation..

Have you ever read threads by Calvinists concerning election... they never mention the Lord Jesus Christ.. not at all.. all they do is speak about how condemned men are the elect of God and that all others are not, and therefore have no hope.. the emphasis has completely been removed from the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ and now it has been placed upon condemned men..

That imo is pretty subtle..

 

[Hitch]

I am reminded of what Hitler said,"if you are going to tell a lie then tell a really big lie,people are more likely to believe a really big lie than a small one". The lie that God hand picked certain persons to be saved and others to be lost before they were even born flies in the face of EVERYTHING taught in the bible from cover to cover, it is so obviously false that it is ridiculous. The actual absurdity that any christian with biblical knowledge would believe such a thing makes it difficult to comprehend...you feel like throwing up your hands and screaming, READ THE BIBLE! The entire story of the bible is that God made man with the ability to recognize right from wrong and the ability to chose and that God holds man accountable for the choice he makes..duh,duh, and double duh.

Wow only a few posts and the mark of net forum desperation is already goosestepping across the stage. :toofunny


Christians are members of the BODY OF CHRIST.. old things are passed away and all things are become NEW IN CHRIST.. and because you're IN CHRIST, you are the elect, not because YOU ARE, but rather because HE IS.

So I'' take the bait. How about you ,or Even, show us all exactly where and how any teaching by Calvin, or any well known Reformer, violates the above in bold.

Please be christian enough to include references.

Or are you just telling a really big lie ?

 

[Eventide]

Wow only a few posts and the mark of net forum desperation is already goosestepping across the stage. :toofunny


Christians are members of the BODY OF CHRIST.. old things are passed away and all things are become NEW IN CHRIST.. and because you're IN CHRIST, you are the elect, not because YOU ARE, but rather because HE IS.

So I'' take the bait. How about you ,or Even, show us all exactly where and how any teaching by Calvin, or any well known Reformer, violates the above in bold.

Please be christian enough to include references.

Or are you just telling a really big lie ?

This is a good and fair question.. and the simple answer is as to WHY a person is referred to as the elect in scripture.

Calvinism teaches that condemned men are UNCONDITIONALLY the elect of God and that they receive this by IRRESISTABLE GRACE, and that all others are without hope.. this is because they do not understand the actual 'reason' WHY that they are the elect in the first place..

And it's because they are IN CHRIST.. and HE IS the elect.. so there's one painfully obvious CONDITION as to WHY they are the elect.. and that's because they are members of His body.. prior to this they (we) were vessels fit for destruction, just as ALL in the first Adam are..

So unconditional election is false at its basis.. because ALL election is conditional upon being IN CHRIST, and every member of the first Adam MAY be justified freely by placing their faith and trust in the Last Adam, and thereby becoming the elect of God... and God, who alone judges true faith and repentance, baptizes them into the body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.. and they are new creatures IN HIM, in Christ.

 

[Eventide]

We can go further and see that even AFTER a person is saved and baptized into the body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.. that they are not the elect.. because it's NOT our old life which is justified in us, but rather the LIFE of Christ in us which is justified.. for He is OUR LIFE and He is the Way, the Truth, and the LIFE.

This is why Paul teaches Christians to PUT OFF the OLD MAN who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts and to put on the Lord Jesus Christ... makes sense right.. HE IS OUR LIFE.. and He IS the LIFE.. and this is why Paul could ultimately say that he IS crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, YET NOT I, but CHRIST liveth in me.. and this is why he would teach the Colossians to NOT set their affections on the things on the earth, but rather on those things which are above where CHRIST IS.. because YE are DEAD he says... and OUR LIFE is hid IN CHRIST with God.. when He appears, we shall appear WITH HIM..

So it should be obvious that election isn't about us at all, it's all about the eternal and glorious majesty of the Lord Jesus Christ.. and those that ARE Christ's have crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts.. and their LIFE is now HIS LIFE.

Flesh gives birth to the flesh and this is the case of every last one in the first Adam..

Spirit gives birth to the Spirit and this is the case in every last one who is born into the Last Adam..

 

[Hitch]

This is a good and fair question.. and the simple answer is as to WHY a person is referred to as the elect in scripture.

Calvinism teaches that condemned men are UNCONDITIONALLY the elect of God and that they receive this by IRRESISTABLE GRACE, and that all others are without hope.. this is because they do not understand the actual 'reason' WHY that they are the elect in the first place..

And it's because they are IN CHRIST.. and HE IS the elect.. so there's one painfully obvious CONDITION as to WHY they are the elect.. and that's because they are members of His body.. prior to this they (we) were vessels fit for destruction, just as ALL in the first Adam are..

So unconditional election is false at its basis.. because ALL election is conditional upon being IN CHRIST, and every member of the first Adam MAY be justified freely by placing their faith and trust in the Last Adam, and thereby becoming the elect of God... and God, who alone judges true faith and repentance, baptizes them into the body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.. and they are new creatures IN HIM, in Christ.

Christians are members of the BODY OF CHRIST.. old things are passed away and all things are become NEW IN CHRIST.. and because you're IN CHRIST, you are the elect, not because YOU ARE, but rather because HE IS.


Please show us where and when Calvin or any well known Reformer teaches election outside of Christ.

good luck

 

[Eventide]

Christians are members of the BODY OF CHRIST.. old things are passed away and all things are become NEW IN CHRIST.. and because you're IN CHRIST, you are the elect, not because YOU ARE, but rather because HE IS.


Please show us where and when Calvin or any well known Reformer teaches election outside of Christ.

good luck

I just did.. are you going to DENY the fact that Calvinists' teach UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION and IRRESISTABLE GRACE.. ? ?

If so, then you know less of Calvinism than I do..

 

[Hitch]

I just did.. are you going to DENY the fact that Calvinists' teach UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION and IRRESISTABLE GRACE.. ? ?

If so, then you know less of Calvinism than I do..

You present a false dichotomy, now please:

Christians are members of the BODY OF CHRIST.. old things are passed away and all things are become NEW IN CHRIST.. and because you're IN CHRIST, you are the elect, not because YOU ARE, but rather because HE IS.


Please show us where and when Calvin or any well known Reformer teaches election outside of Christ.

Since this a a basic doctrine of the Reformation and thousands of books have been written on the subject it should be no trouble at all for you to support your claim with plenty of quotes and citations .


II Thess. 2:13: God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

 

[Eventide]

You present a false dichotomy, now please:

Christians are members of the BODY OF CHRIST.. old things are passed away and all things are become NEW IN CHRIST.. and because you're IN CHRIST, you are the elect, not because YOU ARE, but rather because HE IS.


Please show us where and when Calvin or any well known Reformer teaches election outside of Christ.

Since this a a basic doctrine of the Reformation and thousands of books have been written on the subject it should be no trouble at all for you to support your claim with plenty of quotes and citations .

Here's your answer right here.. if you can man up and answer it..

Do you deny that Calvinism teaches that specific condemned men are ELECTED UNCONDITIONALLY and that this is due to regeneration and IRRESISTABLE GRACE.. ?

 

[Eventide]

Here's one Calvinist definition of Unconditional Election..

Because of humanity's total depravity, God of necessity, in eternity past, chose certain people to be saved. There was nothing inherently better or different about the chosen people which caused God to choose them. God was totally free in His decision to show grace and mercy to some sinners who deserved nothing but His wrath. This is, in essence, the doctrine of Unconditional Election.

Pretty scary isn't it.. ?

Simply because they don't understand WHY they are the elect in the first place... because God didn't choose THEM, He chose them IN CHRIST.

 

[Hitch]

Here's your answer right here.. if you can man up and answer it..

Do you deny that Calvinism teaches that specific condemned men are ELECTED UNCONDITIONALLY and that this is due to regeneration and IRRESISTABLE GRACE.. ?

Is false dichotomy to big a word for you?


No matter how dim one might be its plain in my response;



Since this a a basic doctrine of the Reformation and thousands of books have been written on the subject it should be no trouble at all for you to support your claim with plenty of quotes and citations .


and open for any one literate, that I embrace the doctrine spoken of, namely unconditional election.


Please show us where and when Calvin or any well known Reformer teaches election outside of Christ.


Now I've opened the door as wide as possible. Quote any well known Reformer, Calvin if you're able, in support. I cant think of a way to make it easier for you.

II Thess. 2:13: God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.


I'll give you some ammo;


The Westminster Confession states the doctrine thus:

By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated to everlasting life, and others are foreordained to everlasting death.
These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His mere grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace.
As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Whereby they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.1
​

emphasis added

 

[Eventide]

Have fun with your childish games Hitch.. seeing you're consistent in being unable to answer the simplest of questions like any man.

For the record.. I didn't even say that Calvinists teach election outside of Christ, they teach unconditional election and I explained why that is.. because they don't understand the simple basis for being the elect.. they think it's unconditional.. and that it comes by regeneration and irresistable grace..

No problem.. I'd be ashamed to admit it too.

 

[Hitch]

Is false dichotomy to big a word for you?


No matter how dim one might be its plain in my response;



Since this a a basic doctrine of the Reformation and thousands of books have been written on the subject it should be no trouble at all for you to support your claim with plenty of quotes and citations .


and open for any one literate, that I embrace the doctrine spoken of, namely unconditional election.


Please show us where and when Calvin or any well known Reformer teaches election outside of Christ.


Now I've opened the door as wide as possible. Quote any well known Reformer, Calvin if you're able, in support. I cant think of a way to make it easier for you.

II Thess. 2:13: God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.


I'll give you some ammo;


The Westminster Confession states the doctrine thus:

By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated to everlasting life, and others are foreordained to everlasting death.
These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His mere grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace.
As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Whereby they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.1
​

emphasis added

Re: The MYTH of condemned men being the ELECT...

Have fun with your childish games Hitch.. seeing you're consistent in being unable to answer the simplest of questions like any man.

For the record.. I didn't even say that Calvinists teach election outside of Christ, they teach unconditional election and I explained why that is.. because they don't understand the simple basis for being the elect.. they think it's unconditional.. and that it comes by regeneration and irresistable grace..

No problem.. I'd be ashamed to admit it too.​

Try again jr ,I colored it so even you couldnt miss it

 

[Hitch]

Have fun with your childish games Hitch.. seeing you're consistent in being unable to answer the simplest of questions like any man.

For the record.. I didn't even say that Calvinists teach election outside of Christ, they teach unconditional election and I explained why that is.. because they don't understand the simple basis for being the elect.. they think it's unconditional.. and that it comes by regeneration and irresistable grace..

No problem.. I'd be ashamed to admit it too.

Many Christians have been taught that THEY are the elect of God.. and this might seem fairly obvious to the passive reader who might not have considered WHY a person (like a Christian) is referred to as the elect in scripture.. although upon close examination of the scriptures we can see that WE are not the elect of God but rather that the Lord Jesus Christ IS the elect of God and that we are the elect IN HIM..

That's the key here... IN HIM..


Gee Even sure looks like you're contrasting Calvin;s election with being IN HIM.
:toofunny:toofunny:toofunny

 

[Eventide]

Any others here care to DENY that Calvinism teaches UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION and that THAT IS its basis.. ?

Why else would they call it UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION ?

I know, I'd be ashamed to admit it too..

 

[Eventide]

Re: Here's one Calvinist definition of Unconditional Election..

Because of humanity's total depravity, God of necessity, in eternity past, chose certain people to be saved. There was nothing inherently better or different about the chosen people which caused God to choose them. God was totally free in His decision to show grace and mercy to some sinners who deserved nothing but His wrath. This is, in essence, the doctrine of Unconditional Election.

Here it is again in case any one else wishes to DENY that this is what Calvinists teach people..