The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[savedbygrace57]

Oh so again your demanding EXACT wording (of your choice) in the bible! Lolz! Playing the same game as the start of the thread.

Show me in the bible where it says Christs death means obedience. I want these exact words. Not obediance unto death. 'Unto' doesnt equal 'means'. I'll be waiting too.

Are non-predestined people even capable of loving, in your opinion?

Still waiting for an answer on that one.

show me in the bible where it says Christ death does not mean His obedience. I'll be waiting..

 

[Deavonreye]

Been continually watching this debate. It has been a paramount issue in why I started my thread on the holy spirit bringing men to the truth.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Sheep shall believe !

The Sheep will believe in Christ because they were given to Christ ! Those God before the foundation, gave to His Son, will believe in Him in time. Thats why and the effects of having been given.

Jesus said to some, the reason why you do not believe is because you are not of my Sheep Jn 10:


26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

So, it stands for reason, those who believe, is because They are of His Sheep. And, its specifically said that He lay down His life for His Sheep Jn 10:

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

So, its because He laid down His Life for the Sheep, that they believe on Him.

Those therefore who do not believe, because they are not of His Sheep, He did not lay down His life for.

Unbelief in its finality, means Christ did not die for one, and that one will perish for their own sins..​

 

[mondar]

Been continually watching this debate. It has been a paramount issue in why I started my thread on the holy spirit bringing men to the truth.

I dont remember your thread.

The issue is important. It affects missiology, evangelistic methodology, and our view of God and his grace.

The issue should be resolved by a study of the semantic range of the greek word "pas--pasa--pan." Most greek students get simple vocabulary cards that give an english meaning of "all, every." It is translated in John 3:16 by the term "whosoever." It would be great to see people go through contexts and discuss the context of the term in certain passages. That of course is not going to take place here. This is not academia.

 

[tig]

You know, many times it is wonderful to think that God loves us, and not other people. Or that he chose us, and not other people, or that we are the only ones going to heaven, and not other people. Me thinks Judas, Hitler, and Stalin are having a good chuckle over the discussion that JC only died for a few, oh yeah, along with Bundy and Gacy.

Of course not all people will be sheep and follow JC in this life, but if you read the bible, that's how it is supposed to be, light shining out of darkness.

Here is a prime example: Savedbygrace said: The sheep will believe in Christ...

But this is what JC said to those who believed on him: JN 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

And this is what he said to those same believing Jews a few verses later: Jn 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Good thing you guys do not speak for the Father or JC. But here is what one who was ordained of God to speak said to idol worshippers who not only did not believe in JC, but did not believe that God raised him from the dead either, this is what he had to say to the filthy idol worshippers:

Acts 17:28 For in him (God) we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God....

God is the Father of all mankind, as JC stated over and over, as when he told us to pray, he said to address God as Our Father who art in heaven.

Sometimes it does make us special to think God has chosen us and not others, but fortunately, the first will be last, and the last first, the greatest will be the least, and the least the greatest. Time to pull our heads out of the muck and see who God is, and who our fellow man is, we are all one family.

JC is the lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world as John the Baptist so eloquently put it. So let us make a fast unto the Lord that is acceptable, as so says the book of Isaiah 58:5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?

6Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

7Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

8Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy reward.

9Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;

10And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noon day:

11And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.

Praise be to the one of whom nothing can separate us from his love.

 

[mondar]

You know, many times it is wonderful to think that God loves us, and not other people. Or that he chose us, and not other people, or that we are the only ones going to heaven, and not other people. Me thinks Judas, Hitler, and Stalin are having a good chuckle over the discussion that JC only died for a few, oh yeah, along with Bundy and Gacy.

Of course not all people will be sheep and follow JC in this life, but if you read the bible, that's how it is supposed to be, light shining out of darkness.

Here is a prime example: Savedbygrace said: The sheep will believe in Christ...

But this is what JC said to those who believed on him: JN 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

And this is what he said to those same believing Jews a few verses later: Jn 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Good thing you guys do not speak for the Father or JC. But here is what one who was ordained of God to speak said to idol worshippers who not only did not believe in JC, but did not believe that God raised him from the dead either, this is what he had to say to the filthy idol worshippers:

Acts 17:28 For in him (God) we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God....

God is the Father of all mankind, as JC stated over and over, as when he told us to pray, he said to address God as Our Father who art in heaven.

Sometimes it does make us special to think God has chosen us and not others, but fortunately, the first will be last, and the last first, the greatest will be the least, and the least the greatest. Time to pull our heads out of the muck and see who God is, and who our fellow man is, we are all one family.

JC is the lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world as John the Baptist so eloquently put it. So let us make a fast unto the Lord that is acceptable, as so says the book of Isaiah 58:5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?

6Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

7Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

8Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy reward.

9Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;

10And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noon day:

11And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.

Praise be to the one of whom nothing can separate us from his love.

Interesting, this time a real bonifide universalist. Of course it is always easier to attempt to refute arminians who argue the same universalistic arguments, but refuse to draw the universalistic conclusion. I must admit that I agree that actual universal salvation is far more consistent then what is called arminianism. But I recognize you are being more consistent then that.

My opinion is that the greek term "pas" has a range of meaning that does not demand that we see it as meaning "all men without exception." However, lets look at your texts rather then proof texts I would offer.

First, you talk about John 8. You draw attention to the fact that men believe on Jesus in that passage. While the passage does say those men had faith, I would argue that it was not the kind of faith that flows from regeneration. It was not a faith that would bear fruit. It was not a saving faith.

John has several kinds of faith in his Gospel...
John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, during the feast, many believed on his name, beholding his signs which he did. 24 But Jesus did not trust himself unto them, for that he knew all men,
In John Chapter 2, Jesus refuses to trust himself to a poeple who had faith because of his signs. They know Jesus is different, and they think what about him?

John 6:14 When therefore the people saw the sign which he did, they said, This is of a truth the prophet that cometh into the world.
In John 6, Jesus preforms a great sign. He feeds thousands. The people respond with a "kind" of faith. In fact they want to make him king...
John 6:15 Jesus therefore perceiving that they were about to come and take him by force, to make him king, withdrew again into the mountain himself alone.
They believed he was a prophet, they believed he was from God, they wanted to make him King. They were a people of a kind of faith, but it was not the kind of faith that God gives. It did not save.
John 6:36 But I said unto you, that ye have seen me, and yet believe not.
Thats why he says they did not believe in the above text. So then, they had a faith, faith in Jesus as a preacher, prophet, king, miracle worker, but not savior.

The verses you quote are ...
John 8:30 As he spake these things, many believed on him.
31 Jesus therefore said to those Jews that had believed him, If ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples; Verse 30 says they have faith, but then Jesus calls them to be his disciples. They had a faith in Jesus as prophet, but that was not enough, Jesus calls them to a greater faith. A saving faith. If they come to this faith, they will be free.
John 8:32 and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
These so called believers were not free. They must apostacize because they were still enslaved to sin. Their faith was short lived. It had no root (yes, like in the parable of the seeds).

These believers would deny him and seek to kill him by verse 40.
John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I heard from God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the works of your father. They said unto him, We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

There is a faith that does not save, and leads to apostasy. It is a false faith. It is the faith of demons (James 2:19). It is faith in the signs of Jesus, or in his ability to be a good prophet.

My point is that there is a difference in faith that "Jesus is just alright," and saving faith. The Gospel of john talks about both.

If you want me to comment on the other verses you mention, let me know.

 

[barelohim]

How about.. " For God so loved the World.....that He gave His son.." Does that work? And Jesus' reply to the call...... " Not my will be done, but yours!"'

Just my 5 cents.

Bar..

 

[tig]

Mondar! Thanks for the reply. Am interested in discussing this further, but must take leave for now to "work with my hands" and "to do my own business" so that I may lack nothing. Will fellowship with you soon.

P.s. Don't know if I am a universalist. Not part of any organization, just discuss it as I see it.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Scriptures that indicate that Jesus Christ died and rose again for a specific and definite people !

acts 13:

23Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: cp with 1 cor 15:

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;​

 

[Free]

Scriptures that indicate that Jesus Christ died and rose again for a specific and definite people !

acts 13:

23Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: cp with 1 cor 15:

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;​

But this doesn't support the topic...

 

[savedbygrace57]

But this doesn't support the topic...

Yes it does, I started the topic. It may not support it to you. I am illustrating why its a myth that Christ died for all men without exception. Thats hard to do when the bible indicates he died for a specific people. His own..And I will not argue ith you or debate you on that point ! That the topic is not supported, thats your opinion.

 

[Free]

Yes it does, I started the topic. It may not support it to you. I am illustrating why its a myth that Christ died for all men without exception. Thats hard to do when the bible indicates he died for a specific people. His own..And I will not argue ith you or debate you on that point ! That the topic is not supported, thats your opinion.

Well, the topic is error anyway, so whether you think the passage posted supports it is irrelevant anyway.

That passage you gave, if it supported the topic, would only support that Jesus died for the Jews and not the rest of us.

 

[jasoncran]

you know that verse in context is actually the entire nation of the hebrews that will believe.

not the gentiles for that one must go to hoshea. and free is right.

 

[Alabaster]

Yes it does, I started the topic. It may not support it to you. I am illustrating why its a myth that Christ died for all men without exception. Thats hard to do when the bible indicates he died for a specific people. His own..And I will not argue ith you or debate you on that point ! That the topic is not supported, thats your opinion.

Scripture trumps your notions:


1 John 2:2
He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.




'Nuff said.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Well, the topic is error anyway, so whether you think the passage posted supports it is irrelevant anyway.

That passage you gave, if it supported the topic, would only support that Jesus died for the Jews and not the rest of us.

The scripture says that He was unto Israel a Saviour, not Israel according to Abraham's fleshly descendants, for they are not the children of God rom 9:


8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

But Israel the children of promise, comprised of spiritually of both jew and gentile..

You see, all was not Israel which was of Israel rom 9:


6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

But what the scripture tells us in acts 13:23, is that He was raised up unto a Chosen People..wether jew or gentile !

 

[savedbygrace57]

jason:

you know that verse in context is actually the entire nation of the hebrews that will believe.

Thats not what it says. In fact, those very words were asked to be preached to the gentiles in the next Sabbath acts 13:

42And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

And of course Paul preached them to them because they partook of the same promise under the new Covenant..

 

[savedbygrace57]

Scriptures that indicate that Jesus Christ died and rose again for a specific and definite People !



Matt 1:

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins

Notice, His People and not all people without exception. His People, and not all ethnic jews, for all ethnic jews are not His People. Jesus told some of them, who were of the seed of abraham according to the flesh in jn 8:37, that they had the devil as their Father, and not God Jn 8:

42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.


43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So the Promise in matt 1 21 is to save God's People, which puts a limit on who He came to save. His People BTW are all those Chosen in Him eph 1:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[savedbygrace57]

Re: The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ loved all men without exception !

If God Loved all men without exception, whats the Point of Jesus telling His disciples this ? Jn 14:21

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

If God already Loved everyone in the world without exception, then this statement by Christ was a waste of time, and not really meaningful, since all who are in the world breaking God's commandments are Loved too.

 

[tig]

Interesting, this time a real bonifide universalist. Of course it is always easier to attempt to refute arminians who argue the same universalistic arguments, but refuse to draw the universalistic conclusion. I must admit that I agree that actual universal salvation is far more consistent then what is called arminianism. But I recognize you are being more consistent then that.

My opinion is that the greek term "pas" has a range of meaning that does not demand that we see it as meaning "all men without exception." However, lets look at your texts rather then proof texts I would offer.

First, you talk about John 8. You draw attention to the fact that men believe on Jesus in that passage. While the passage does say those men had faith, I would argue that it was not the kind of faith that flows from regeneration. It was not a faith that would bear fruit. It was not a saving faith.


John has several kinds of faith in his Gospel...
John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, during the feast, many believed on his name, beholding his signs which he did. 24 But Jesus did not trust himself unto them, for that he knew all men,
In John Chapter 2, Jesus refuses to trust himself to a poeple who had faith because of his signs. They know Jesus is different, and they think what about him?

John 6:14 When therefore the people saw the sign which he did, they said, This is of a truth the prophet that cometh into the world.
In John 6, Jesus preforms a great sign. He feeds thousands. The people respond with a "kind" of faith. In fact they want to make him king...
John 6:15 Jesus therefore perceiving that they were about to come and take him by force, to make him king, withdrew again into the mountain himself alone.
They believed he was a prophet, they believed he was from God, they wanted to make him King. They were a people of a kind of faith, but it was not the kind of faith that God gives. It did not save.
John 6:36 But I said unto you, that ye have seen me, and yet believe not.
Thats why he says they did not believe in the above text. So then, they had a faith, faith in Jesus as a preacher, prophet, king, miracle worker, but not savior.

The verses you quote are ...
John 8:30 As he spake these things, many believed on him.
31 Jesus therefore said to those Jews that had believed him, If ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples; Verse 30 says they have faith, but then Jesus calls them to be his disciples. They had a faith in Jesus as prophet, but that was not enough, Jesus calls them to a greater faith. A saving faith. If they come to this faith, they will be free.
John 8:32 and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
These so called believers were not free. They must apostacize because they were still enslaved to sin. Their faith was short lived. It had no root (yes, like in the parable of the seeds).

These believers would deny him and seek to kill him by verse 40.
John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I heard from God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the works of your father. They said unto him, We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

There is a faith that does not save, and leads to apostasy. It is a false faith. It is the faith of demons (James 2:19). It is faith in the signs of Jesus, or in his ability to be a good prophet.

My point is that there is a difference in faith that "Jesus is just alright," and saving faith. The Gospel of john talks about both.

If you want me to comment on the other verses you mention, let me know.

You know, I agree with much of what you say. I don't think many people understand the good news to be able to believe it. They believe so to speak, but they do not understand, so actually they only profess to believe, or believe something other than the truth. And that is exactly where I see these people who believed in JN 8, they believed JC was tellling them the truth, they just did not realize what that truth was.

And because they did not know the truth, they were still servants of sin, because they remained in the system of sin, the law, for their justification and hope. But the Son is the one who has the words of life, that lift a man out of the system of sin, the law, as a servant, and brings him into the family of God, as a son or daughter. As long as they remained in the present covenant or agreement, they were still sinners, and servants, children of the one who tempted mankind to enter the system that makes them slaves.

Of course, what made the difference is what they believed. Those who believe the message of Christ become alive immediately, the first harvest. Those who reject the message, or are ignorant of it, or go about to justify themselves by any other manner other than the unchangeable truth that JC taught, are damned and living a life of burning hell, being baptized by the fire John the Baptist said JC would baptize mankind with.

Man baptizes with water, but JC baptizes with the spirit and with fire. Here on earth, the way I read it, you either live a life baptized in the spirit, understanding the Father's unchanging truth given by JC, or you live a life of hell baptized by fire, believing a lie- that there is something you must do to become a child of God.

The saving faith saves the soul, which is described as the time in which the spirit resides inside the body of flesh, our time on earth. The "demon" faith damns the soul, or our time here in the flesh.

Either way, our spirit is still God's, it is who we really are, and is in the family of God, and will go back to God at the death of the flesh.

Eccl 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.



I agree not all are Christ's sheep now. But look at this, this is what is so wonderful whether or not you are his sheep.

Jn 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Here is a great fact. What does the Father do? He raises the dead! Who dies? All men. Who are raised by the Father? Then came JC, who also has the power to raise the dead! When does JC raise the dead? Here it is:

Jn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Those who hear and believe now live now, those who go on to die without hearing and believing, don't begin to really live until their bodies die and the Father raises them.

There are two resurrections, the resurrection the Son performs now on earth, and the resurrection the Father performs at the death of the flesh.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

And that is why JC came, to: Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

When one believes the message of Christ that we are the spirit within the flesh, not the flesh itself, then they are "resurrected" understanding that they are not what they appear to be, but are in fact spirit just like God their Father himself, and will never die in reality, because in reality they are not the flesh, but the spirit that is eternal, that dwells within the flesh for it's time on earth.

Once you understand that message, you don't fear death anymore, so no one is able to put you in some kind of bondage or other because you fear if you don't do what they say you will go to hell or something for all eternity.

 

[Alabaster]

Re: The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ loved all men without exception !

If God Loved all men without exception, whats the Point of Jesus telling His disciples this ? Jn 14:21

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

If God already Loved everyone in the world without exception, then this statement by Christ was a waste of time, and not really meaningful, since all who are in the world breaking God's commandments are Loved too.

You can love your neighbour, but the love and union of your wife and children is far more meaningful and has far-reaching benefits. So, in that vein---God loves everyone of His creation, but He has a special father-child relationship with those who become His adopted children.