The Nature of Judas

[Guest]

Now, what I'm about to say is the complete antithesis of Christian doctrine since it's foundation. The idea presented here is deliberately unorthodox for the sake of thought experimentation. Please resist the urge to say "Judas betrayed Jesus and is the ultimate evil" for a few minutes and hear me out.

So, the idea of the "betrayal of God" seems kind of odd to me. You have an omnipresent and omniscient deity and, yet, He was betrayed. There are a couple of possibilities. Was Jesus ignorant of Judas' betrayal of him? This seems unlikely since, I believe, Jesus mentioned that someone was going to betray him, so it seems like he had some preknowledge of the event. Was Jesus unable to prevent the betrayal? Also seems unlikely since it would be very easy to avoid Judas' kiss. The last two possibilities seem more likely. Jesus let Judas betray him or, more radically, Judas was a willing and conscious agent in Jesus' planned destiny. I believe the Bible says that Jesus at least allowed Judas to betray him and did foresee it.

So, let's look at the first case. Jesus knew of Judas' future betrayl and let Judas betray him. If this is true, then Jesus' foreknowledge of Judas' actions would mean that Judas had no free will. If he had no free will, it's reprehensible that he be held responsible for them. If Judas was a willing agent in Jesus' planned destiny, then Judas should be praised as a necessary agent of the Atonement.

Now, most Christians (with the exception of some Gnostic sects) believe that Judas is in hell for his betrayal. I think it is inarguable that Judas' actions played a pivotal role in the Atonement. If he is, indeed, in Hell, then he is punished for helping to save humanity. Furthermore, if this is true, Judas is suffering for humanity for helping to save humanity, whereas Jesus ascended to heaven and only suffered a mortal life.

Also, Jesus' last words were "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." Why do these words not apply to Judas? It seems that if you are dying for the sins of humanity and demonstrating the ultimate act of forgiveness, forgiving your betrayer would be the ultimate act of benevolence and forgiveness. Also, it is clear that Judas felt guilty for his actions. It seems reasonable that he repented on some level and should be allowed some lenience.

Thoughts?

 

[mrflippy]

For the simple stuff, it's pretty clear from the bible that Jesus knew about the betrayal. It's also pretty clear that avoiding the betrayal or the succeeding events would be counter to the whole purpose of Jesus' life.

(I never can decide whether to use Jesus' or Jesus's)

 

[Guest]

For the simple stuff, it's pretty clear from the bible that Jesus knew about the betrayal. It's also pretty clear that avoiding the betrayal or the succeeding events would be counter to the whole purpose of Jesus' life.

(I never can decide whether to use Jesus' or Jesus's)

Right, so Judas played a pivotal role in the Atonement. Why is he viewed as being punished so harshly and not receiving forgiveness?

 

[mrflippy]

For the simple stuff, it's pretty clear from the bible that Jesus knew about the betrayal. It's also pretty clear that avoiding the betrayal or the succeeding events would be counter to the whole purpose of Jesus' life.

(I never can decide whether to use Jesus' or Jesus's)

Right, so Judas played a pivotal role in the Atonement. Why is he viewed as being punished so harshly and not receiving forgiveness?

It probably has to do with the fact that he assisted with the betrayal and murder of an innocent man for money. (It doesn't help that the innocent man was Jesus) He was also stealing money from the general "disciple fund" that they had.

I haven't really studied this specific issue, so I don't know what passages relate to Judas's salvation, so there could be some passages that shed more light on what's going on.

 

[tim-from-pa]

A lot has been bandied about regarding free choice v.s. predestination. And the Judas incident seems to be the story of biblical choice for debate. I think both exist simultaneously. However, Paul answered that in Romans 9:

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory....

Frankly, I don't think you'll find a better answer. It's as if Paul knew you and everyone else was going to ask the question. I'm not sure why more people don't point to this clear passage.

 

[Collier]

Let me try to explain this as best I can. First, look at a couple of statements made and look at them together.

You have an omnipresent and omniscient deity. And then:Jesus knew of Judas' future betrayl and let Judas betray him. If this is true, then Jesus' foreknowledge of Judas' actions would mean that Judas had no free will.

Since God is all-knowing, why does it follow that one has no free will even though God knows what we may do before we do it? Just because God knows our hearts and what decisions we will make in no way means that we don't have free will.Now as far as this goes:

Now, most Christians (with the exception of some Gnostic sects) believe that Judas is in hell for his betrayal. I think it is inarguable that Judas' actions played a pivotal role in the Atonement. If he is, indeed, in Hell, then he is punished for helping to save humanity. Furthermore, if this is true, Judas is suffering for humanity for helping to save humanity, whereas Jesus ascended to heaven and only suffered a mortal life.

Again, God knew what would happen before it did. There were MANY things which transpired that led to Christ dying on the cross for our sins. So don't just point to Judas and try to justify his role. The fact is that Judas BETRAYED Jesus and this is an act worthy of the punishment he receives. Surely, no man is worthy of praise much less one that has betrayed the very Son of God.

 

[Guest]

Random thoughts, in no specific order:

- It's not impossible to assume a model of free-will that's not inconsistent with foreknowledge. It just requires a multi-dimensional view of time. A 3-dimensional being can see the entirety of a 2-dimensional realm at once, while a 2-dimensional being within that realm can only see a narrow section of that realm at any one time. So a being with a 2-dimensional grasp of time (like a deity) may be able to see all of time at once. For example, Jesus may not have known Judas would betray him because of simple precognition, but rather because, as far as he was concerned, Judas had already betrayed him. So just because Jesus foresaw this event doesn't mean that Judas had no choice. At any rate, though, this is going to devolve into a semantic quibble over terms like "free will", so I don't want to continue on this tangent much farther.

- On the subject of Judas in hell, there are several explanations. One is the belief, held by some Christians, that Hell is not permanent. You go there for awhile, and after you've atoned, you either are reconciled with God, or you just cease to exist. Either way, you're not being tortured anymore. So even if Judas went to hell, he may or may not be there for eternity while the rest of the good guys frolick in heaven.

- It should be noted that English translations of the Bible play fast and loose with the word "Hell". There's Geheena, which is where the corpses of criminals (I think) are to be cremated after the Second Coming. This gets translated as "Hell". There's the place where fallen angels go to suffer, Tartarus. This gets translated as "Hell". There's Hades where all the dead go temporarily. Here, they're in a state of temporary non-existence, devoid of mind and body. This gets translated as "Hell". When you go back to the original texts, in fact, it's pretty hard to get much of an impression of what the hell "Hell" actually is, pun very much intended.

- About five minutes of non-strenuous research resulted in no real evidence that Judas even went to Hell. He repented before his death, and was obviously sorry for what he did. Based upon the general notion that there's no sin that you can commit that will keep you out of heaven if you repent and accept Jesus, it seems a safe assumption that Judas is likely in Heaven. But he probably has a dinky little flat there with a lousy view and no cable.

 

[Guest]

I will say one thing about free will. If there is any foreknowledge, regardless of its source, then there is no such thing as free will. Let's take the simple case where God has precognition of the future. If God knows that I am going to choose a certain way tomorrow, then tomorrow I will choose that way. From my perspective, I have the illusion of free will, but I don't really, because I WILL choose that way.

Now, let's take ElJeffe's more convuluted scheme of Jesus as a higher dimensional being able to survey all of time at once. This bodes even worse for free will. If it is possible for Jesus to see all of time simultaneously as if he were surveying a field, then that means that our actions have already occured. Furthermore, that means our entire life is mapped out already and there is zero free will. However, we lower-dimensional being still have the illusion of free will.

Omniscience means there cannot be free will, logically.

 

[mrflippy]

Omniscience means there cannot be free will, logically.

I knew you were going to say that.

 

[tim-from-pa]

I will say one thing about free will. If there is any foreknowledge, regardless of its source, then there is no such thing as free will. Let's take the simple case where God has precognition of the future. If God knows that I am going to choose a certain way tomorrow, then tomorrow I will choose that way. From my perspective, I have the illusion of free will, but I don't really, because I WILL choose that way.

Now, let's take ElJeffe's more convuluted scheme of Jesus as a higher dimensional being able to survey all of time at once. This bodes even worse for free will. If it is possible for Jesus to see all of time simultaneously as if he were surveying a field, then that means that our actions have already occured. Furthermore, that means our entire life is mapped out already and there is zero free will. However, we lower-dimensional being still have the illusion of free will.

Omniscience means there cannot be free will, logically.

That's man's logic. Actually, there can be free will and predestination at the same time, but don't ask me to explain it--- the Bible demonstrates both. The problem lies when one side or the other quotes verses to prove their point, and when all is said and done, each one looks like they proven their case. That's what's so amazing about God.

BTW, just so I do not sound like a person with blind faith, I work in the technical field and I had straight A's in calculus. I'm smart enough to know that we do not know everything (just in case anyone thinks I am one who does not approach things scientifically or logically---- I have no problems with logic.)

 

[Drew]

I will say one thing about free will. If there is any foreknowledge, regardless of its source, then there is no such thing as free will.

Omniscience means there cannot be free will, logically.

I used to believe exactly as you do about the incompatibility of foreknowledge and free will. I was vigorously defending this very position in a thread in this very forum about 4 or 5 months ago (the name of the thread = "The old Foreknowledge / Free Will problem" or something very close to that). Then another poster with the very interesting name "Not_Registered" counterargued that the 2 were indeed compatible. I was convinced that he was wrong.

At the end of the day, I became convinced that he was right after all. He referred me to a link to some philosophy professor who provided a very convincing argument that a subtle trap of logic leads us to believe that the two are incompatible. His argument is purely technical and relies on no Christian doctrine whatsoever.

If you are really interested in this seeming paradox, I recommend that you consult the thread in question and / or read the material from the professor. Here is the link to the thread:

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=16341

 

[Guest]

I used to believe exactly as you do about the incompatibility of foreknowledge and free will. I was vigorously defending this very position in a thread in this very forum about 4 or 5 months ago (the name of the thread = "The old Foreknowledge / Free Will problem" or something very close to that). Then another poster with the very interesting name "Not_Registered" counterargued that the 2 were indeed compatible. I was convinced that he was wrong.

I just went through and followed that discussion. I do believe in the compatibility of omniscience and free will, and I still think that argument was horrible.