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The one question that UR's can't answer

H

Heidi

Member
The one question that URist's cannot answer nor have ever answered is, "If there was such a thing as torment that would never go away, what words ydo you think Jesus would use to convey that message?"

But URists haven't answered this question because they know what words Jesus would use to convey the message of torment that will never go away and it is precisely those very words that he does use to explain what will happen to the goats. Thus answering this question truthfully will defeat their whole doctrine. So they don't answer it.
 
I didn't think that any UR's would reply to this question because they'd then have to admit that Jesus has told us that eternal torment does exists for people who reject God and do evil. Therefore, the lack of response is the same as pleading the fifth amendment. :)
 
:D Heidi, the answer to this question or a related question has been answered several times, but I believe that it has been ignored, so it will not be posted for you again, by me. If you are really interested in a hearing the repsonse, please reread threads on which this has been addressed. Thanks and God bless you, Heidi.
 
... and exactly what is that answer Shana?

P.S. You have STILL not given me the web site of where you had read about what Norman Geisler had written about UR. Have you forgotten that request? Remember, it too was your claim, not mine.

:-?
 
:D Go check out the threads, GaryBee, and if I have time, I will post it again. I never indicated to you that I would provide the name of a website. I indicated that I had read all of what you posted which was in violation of the rules for these discussions, on another website. Now, you take care and God bless you.
 
Since I did not see the reply you are referring to, I do not consider your response to this question in good faith. If your answer is sound, I would think you would love to repeat it. Otherwise, I can see why you would not want to repeat it.
 
The reason being, Heidi, is that time and time again responses have been given to you, but they are never responded to or they are ignored. You have accused those who believe in the ultimate victory of God of ignoring the words of Jesus, yet we have also shared words of the Lord which seem very often to be ignored by those of the opposite camp. Now, as I said, if you are really interested in hearing about what the response is that bad, I would think that you would take the time to look for it. God bless you.
 
Shana said:
:D Go check out the threads, GaryBee, and if I have time, I will post it again. I never indicated to you that I would provide the name of a website. I indicated that I had read all of what you posted which was in violation of the rules for these discussions, on another website. Now, you take care and God bless you.
Click to expand...

Shana, you made the following claim... -here-

Shana said:
I have read it all before from another website.
Click to expand...

I have asked you to give me that web site -here-

Gary said:
... and which website would that be? PM me with the website where you have read all of this before.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Simple enough...... UNLESS there is no such web site!!

:)
 
Heidi said:
The one question that URist's cannot answer nor have ever answered is, "If there was such a thing as torment that would never go away, what words ydo you think Jesus would use to convey that
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I would guess that it would be 'eternal torment' or 'tormented for eternity'.

What the bible does say is 'tormented day and night forever and ever' which is explained word for word in other places of the Bible to show 'continuity as long as life lasts'.

It also says 'everlasting punishment' not 'everlasting punishing' Here is where I disgree with both the URist and the traditionalist. The fire at the end of time is a means to an end. The ultimate punishment and the ultimate wages of sin is death. The results are everlasting not the process.

The bible also says 'everlasting destruction' not 'everlasting destroying'. Again as used elsewhere in the bible, the destruction that results from the fire is everlasting.

Nothing is remade, nothing is restored, nothing is resurrected.

It is very easy to use some of these words. They did not and unlike the URist, the annihilation has a valid interpretation of these terms and their uses elsewhere in the Bible.
 
Because you never respond to any reply in good faith. You respond that anyone who doesn't believe precisely what you believe is ignoring Christ, is imagining a God for themselves, is a supposed Christian, blahblahblahblah.

I saw posts that spelled out the Koine Greek word for "eternal" (not age-lasting or age-enduring) several times.

If you're truly interested, and not just fishing for an opportunity to yell at folks, you'll find it.

Good luck, and God bless.
 
:D Last time, GaryBee. I never indicated to you that I would give you the name of the website. I indicated that I had read it all on a website before. The issue here is not the name of the website. The issue here is that you were in violation of the guidelines for these discussions. This is all that you will hear from me on this subject (the website) again. God bless.
 
Shana: I have read it all before from another website.

Gary: ... and which website would that be? PM me with the website where you have read all of this before.

Do you have that website or not?

:-? :-?
 
We can discuss whether the fire is eternal in another thread, Guibox. I happen to agree with you that the fire never goes out, which is what Jesus says. But this thread is about whether or not eternal torment or eternal punishment even exists. The UR's claim that those in the lake of fire will eventually climb out and live with Christ forever. This not only cannot be verified in Revelations, but nowhere in scripture. Jesus said "If you don't forgiven men their sins, then neither will your Father forgive your sins." Shana & the other URists disagree with Jesus here.

Jesus also says to Peter, "If you forgive anyone their sins, their sins will be forgiven; if you do not forgive their sins, their sins will not be forgiven." The URisits disagree with Jesus here too.

Jesus says that "small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life and only a few find it." But the URists again disagree with Jesus.

Jesus says, "For many are invited, but few are chosen." The URists disagree with Jesus here also.

Jesus says, "Not everyone who calls me Lord will enter the kingodm of heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father." Jesus says earlier; "The work of God is this; to believe in the one he sent." The URists disagree with jesus here also.

Jesus says; "But whoever blasphemes against the Holy spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." the URists disagree with Jesus here also.

Jesus says, "But whoever does not believe me stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." The URists disagree with Jesus here also.

Jesus said to the woman who kissed his feet; "Your faith has saved you." But the URists add that if she didn't have faith, then she would be saved also.

Jesus says, "I tell you the truth, unless you beomce like little children, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven." But the URists also disagree with this.

Paul says "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Neither the sexually immoral, the nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves, nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." The URists also disagree with Paul here. Nowhere in scripture does it say that they will all jump out of the burning fire and inherit the kingdom of God.

Rev. 21:7-8,, when speaking about the New Jerusalem, John says; "He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters, and all liars-their place will be in the Lake of burning sulphur." John makes it as clear as Paul & Jesus do, who will inerit the kingdom of God and who will be in the lake of burning sulphur instead. John even speaks about this while describing who will be in the New Jerusalem!
 
The issue here is not the name of the website. The issue here is that you were in violation of the guidelines for these discussions.
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Shana, the issue you speak of has been taken care of already, but I see the one Gary is asking you about has not been. :-?
 
Heidi said:
We can discuss whether the fire is eternal in another thread, Guibox. I happen to agree with you that the fire never goes out, which is what Jesus says. But this thread is about whether or not eternal torment or eternal punishment even exists. The UR's claim that those in the lake of fire will eventually climb out and live with Christ forever. This not only cannot be verified in Revelations, but nowhere in scripture. Jesus said "If you don't forgiven men their sins, then neither will your Father forgive your sins." Shana & the other URists disagree with Jesus here.

Not at all!! When Jesus says to those outside the New Jerusalem to "wash their robes", I would assume they would have to forgive men their sins. There is a necessary humbling and transformation that is a fundamental prerequisite and integral part of reconciliation.

Jesus also says to Peter, "If you forgive anyone their sins, their sins will be forgiven; if you do not forgive their sins, their sins will not be forgiven." The URisits disagree with Jesus here too.

Not at all!! Will you forgive sinners their sins, Heidi? This is a very sharp, two-edged sword. Those who are forgiven much will love much. Anyone who wishes to drink from the fountain without cost will have forgiven the sins of men.

Jesus says that "small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life and only a few find it." But the URists again disagree with Jesus.

Not at all!! Only an idiot would look around the world we live in and not wholeheartedly agree with Jesus here. The vessels of wrath are many, and the vessels of mercy are few. "Wide is the gate that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

Jesus says, "For many are invited, but few are chosen." The URists disagree with Jesus here also.

Not at all! In 2 Corinthians 5, we see how necessary the destruction is. And isn't it humbling to be chosen to be an ambassador of Christ? 2 Cor 5:17 "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God."

Jesus says, "Not everyone who calls me Lord will enter the kingodm of heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father." Jesus says earlier; "The work of God is this; to believe in the one he sent." The URists disagree with jesus here also.

Not at all!! The kingdom of heaven is the millenium, a time of triumph for the elect believers, who are in fact to be priests and rulers (Revelation 20:6), presumably over these same folks who did NOT do the will of the Father.

Jesus says; "But whoever blasphemes against the Holy spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." the URists disagree with Jesus here also.

Not at all!! They will be "forgiven neither in this age, nor the <<millenial>> age to come." (You oddly omit the immediately preceding statement that all the sins of men will be forgiven.)

Jesus says, "But whoever does not believe me stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." The URists disagree with Jesus here also.

Not at all!! Confessing Christ as Lord is an absolute prerequisite to reconciliation with God. Those who do not believe do stand condemned. But a condemned man may serve his sentence, he may have his sentence commuted, or he may eventually be pardoned as we were, depending on what the JUDGE decides.

Jesus said to the woman who kissed his feet; "Your faith has saved you." But the URists add that if she didn't have faith, then she would be saved also.

Absolutely! Because she will eventually confess Christ, as all will. But if by "saved", we mean reconciled to Christ in this life, no she wouldn't have been. (Go here to my point about condemnation, above.)

Jesus says, "I tell you the truth, unless you beomce like little children, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven." But the URists also disagree with this.

Not at...Huh? When we came to the Lord as little children, we understood him perhaps best, as a stern but always loving Father. We knew in our heart of hearts how good God was, and that, though we didn't understand every little doctrinal esoterica, everything would end up all right. God was in control. We must return to that visceral, unshakable belief in the goodness of God.

Paul says "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Neither the sexually immoral, the nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves, nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." The URists also disagree with Paul here. Nowhere in scripture does it say that they will all jump out of the burning fire and inherit the kingdom of God.

Not at all! Most biblical scholars agree that Jesus ushered in the Kingdom of God here on earth (Mark 9:1), the Kingdom of His people, His elect, His chosen ambassadors. Obviously none of these people (unless they accept Christ and subsequently are radically changed) will inherit the kingdom of God. (I mean, my goodness, who among us has ever seen a sexually immoral, adulterous, greedy or slandering person in the Church?!)

Rev. 21:7-8,, when speaking about the New Jerusalem, John says; "He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters, and all liars-their place will be in the Lake of burning sulphur." John makes it as clear as Paul & Jesus do, who will inerit the kingdom of God and who will be in the lake of burning sulphur instead. John even speaks about this while describing who will be in the New Jerusalem!

Yes he does! (Though I don't anywhere see the phrase Kingdom of God...a rare bit of scholarly sloppiness?). He speaks of those very same people from Revelation 21:7-8 being outside the New Jerusalem in Revelation 22, does he not? Huh? That's odd.

Revelation 22:14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Gosh, I thought we were done with those wretches back in Chapter 21. And what does John record that Jesus (the Alpha and Omega) and the Church (the Bride) say?

22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!†And let him who hears say, “Come!†Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

{/quote]

All I can say is "Amen. Come, Lord Jesus."
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Hello?

Rev. 22:14-15, "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they might have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs..."Where does jesus say that the dogs, etc. will wash their robes? If all will go through the gates, then why does Jesus even tell su who will be outside, Dean? According to you, there will be no one outside, will there not? Therefore, you are again saying that Jesus is lying.

In addition, do you even know what Jesus is talking about when he says wash their robes, Dean? And where does the bible say anywhere when, and how those in the lake of fire will ever come out?

Your "assumption" that Jesus will forgive men their sins is again, just that, and not based on Christ's words at all. Jesus said to Peter, "If you forgive anyone their sins; their sins will be forgiven; If you do not forgive them their sins, they will not be forgiven." The fact that Jesus gives Peter a choice here, shows that not all will be forgiven Dean! "If you do not forgive men their sins, then neither will your father forive your sins." Jesus makes it very clear that some will be forgiven and others will not be. Only those who forgive men their sins will be forgiven. Those who do not, Jesus clearly says they will not be forgiven. Therefore, your assumption is again not based on Christ's words, but instead your own imagination.

Are you saying that Jesus is lying here, Dean?

So you finally agree with Jesus that few will find the road that leads to life and many will enter the road that leads to destruction. Do you know what destruction means, Dean? Do you know what the word "destroy means, Dean? Do you know what Jesus means by life, Dean? it can't be life on earth because life on earth is not a narrow road. Everyone alive is on that road. Therefore, the life that Jesus is talking about is eternal life with Christ. Therefore, you have admitted that few, not all, will have eternal life with Christ.

So what is the name of the place that the murderers go to, Dean? Are you saying they won't be in heaven? Jesus said not all will go to heaven. Do you believe him here?

Sorry Dean, but Jesus says all the sins of men will be forgiven in those who believe him, except the sin against the Holy Spirit. Jesus makes it quite clear in many other of his words, that only those who believe him will be forgiven. So you have once again, distorted his meaning. Jesus does not lie, Dean.

Do you know what "reconciling the world in Christ means, Dean? It means those in Christ. I think you better read what Jesus says about those who receive the Holy spirit in John, 14:20, "On that day (when you receive the Holy Spirit), you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I am in you." In Christ means all those who have received the Holy Spirit. But since you don't understand what that means, then you interpret any passages that says "in Christ" as being the whole world. You have a lot to learn, Dean. This whole passage in 2 Co 5:17 is talking about born again Christians once they receive the Holy Spirit. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, is the crux of that passage. He therefore, is not talking about those who are not in Christ, or he wouldn't have even mentioned having to be in Christ! They become new creations, the old is gone, the new has come. the reconciliation Paul is talking about is for believers only! You cannot be reconciled to God if you don't believe him!

You have clearly shown that you do not know what it is like to be born again, Dean. If you did, you would the difference between heaven and hell instantly. And you would also know that if you died withoutthe Spirit, there will be no way to ever receive it once you are dead because your heart & brain will have rotted away. You would also know what Jesus means by the last day. But now, you're leaving it up to your imagination, not the Holy Spirit in you because the Holy Spirit inside a person does not lead to twisting or denying Christ's words.

Your persistent lack of ability to understand what Jesus, Paul, and John mean by the eternal fire where the unbelievers will be, will lead you to pass on Satan's lie, "You will not surely die." Therefore, there is nothing i can do for you. Only God can show you the truth. Jesus said; "Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to understand what I say. Your father is the devil, the father of lies, and you want to carry out your father's desires." Only the Holy Spirit can lead you to believe Christ's words without contradicting other words of his.
 
Heidi said:
Hello? Yes?

Rev. 22:14-15, "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they might have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs..."Where does jesus say that the dogs, etc. will wash their robes? If all will go through the gates, then why does Jesus even tell su who will be outside, Dean? According to you, there will be no one outside, will there not? Therefore, you are again saying that Jesus is lying.

This is silliness. Jesus isn't lying. Outside are the dogs. Many places (Ephesians 1:9-11 is one) we see that ultimately God will bring all things under Christ's headship. So it doesn't suprise me to see how that occurs. It doesn't say (though you see it there as if it did) Outside, forever, are the dogs. Actually, in his letter to the Church at Philadelphia, Jesus tells overcomers that they will never leave, so there is no-one else who can come through the gates.

In addition, do you even know what Jesus is talking about when he says wash their robes, Dean? And where does the bible say anywhere when, and how those in the lake of fire will ever come out?

Weren't you suprised to see them outside the New Jerusalem in 22, after so confidently frying them in Chapter 21. What wonders the Lord has in store will amaze us all, of that I'm sure.

Your "assumption" that Jesus will forgive men their sins is again, just that, and not based on Christ's words at all. Jesus said to Peter, "If you forgive anyone their sins; their sins will be forgiven; If you do not forgive them their sins, they will not be forgiven." The fact that Jesus gives Peter a choice here, shows that not all will be forgiven Dean! "If you do not forgive men their sins, then neither will your father forive your sins." Jesus makes it very clear that some will be forgiven and others will not be. Only those who forgive men their sins will be forgiven. Those who do not, Jesus clearly says they will not be forgiven. Therefore, your assumption is again not based on Christ's words, but instead your own imagination.

If anyone else could follow that, please chime in here. Clearly, prior to anyone's forgiveness, they need to cleanse themselves of hatred and unforgiveness. Perhaps that's what "washing one's robes" means.

Are you saying that Jesus is lying here, Dean?

You know, Heidi, I'm going to go with "No" here.

So you finally agree with Jesus that few will find the road that leads to life and many will enter the road that leads to destruction.

When did I stop beating my wife?

Do you know what destruction means, Dean? Do you know what the word "destroy means, Dean? Do you know what Jesus means by life, Dean? it can't be life on earth because life on earth is not a narrow road. Everyone alive is on that road. Therefore, the life that Jesus is talking about is eternal life with Christ. Therefore, you have admitted that few, not all, will have eternal life with Christ.

All I know is that in Christ we are a "new creation", that the old is passed away, crucified with Christ. Since this is our experience, why would non-believers not similarly experience absolute destruction of that Sinful Nature, that selfish, vulgar, self-seeking person that causes sin. That was destroyed in us, and Scripture tells us it will be destroyed in them.

So what is the name of the place that the murderers go to, Dean? Are you saying they won't be in heaven? Jesus said not all will go to heaven. Do you believe him here?

Actually, Jesus said the "Kingdom of Heaven". But you've gotten confused on this before. See my prior notes on the Kingdom of Heaven, the Millenial reign of God's elect, and their priesthood (presumably to the non-elect)

Sorry Dean, but Jesus says all the sins of men will be forgiven in those who believe him, except the sin against the Holy Spirit.

I think it's the Gospel according to Heidi that adds the words I've underlined above.

Jesus makes it quite clear in many other of his words, that only those who believe him will be forgiven. So you have once again, distorted his meaning. Jesus does not lie, Dean.

I know he doesn't, Heidi. It has to happen. And it will. All will confess him as Lord, and be reconciled to his headship.

Do you know what "reconciling the world in Christ means, Dean? It means those in Christ. I think you better read what Jesus says about those who receive the Holy spirit in John, 14:20, "On that day (when you receive the Holy Spirit), you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I am in you." In Christ means all those who have received the Holy Spirit. But since you don't understand what that means, then you interpret any passages that says "in Christ" as being the whole world. You have a lot to learn, Dean. This whole passage in 2 Co 5:17 is talking about born again Christians once they receive the Holy Spirit.

I understand, now. We're ambassadors...to ourselves!!

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, is the crux of that passage. He therefore, is not talking about those who are not in Christ, or he wouldn't have even mentioned having to be in Christ! They become new creations, the old is gone, the new has come. the reconciliation Paul is talking about is for believers only! You cannot be reconciled to God if you don't believe him!

Am I talking to myself, here?

You have clearly shown that you do not know what it is like to be born again, Dean. If you did, you would the difference between heaven and hell instantly. And you would also know that if you died withoutthe Spirit, there will be no way to ever receive it once you are dead because your heart & brain will have rotted away. You would also know what Jesus means by the last day. But now, you're leaving it up to your imagination, not the Holy Spirit in you because the Holy Spirit inside a person does not lead to twisting or denying Christ's words.

Are you not forgiving my sins, here, Heidi? Must...stay...awake.

Your persistent lack of ability to understand what Jesus, Paul, and John mean by the eternal fire where the unbelievers will be, will lead you to pass on Satan's lie, "You will not surely die." Therefore, there is nothing i can do for you. Only God can show you the truth. Jesus said; "Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to understand what I say. Your father is the devil, the father of lies, and you want to carry out your father's desires." Only the Holy Spirit can lead you to believe Christ's words without contradicting other words of his.
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"Only the Holy Spirit can lead you to believe Christ's words without contradicting other words of his." Amen, sister. Leave me to Him.
 
Yes, Dean, you are talking to yourself because you do not have the words of eternal life. Only Christ does. People who believe Jesus about ET think he knows better than you do about it. Therefore, I only listen to people who agree with Christ, and the ones who don't but are sincerely interested in uderstanding his words instead of putting words into his mouth. I simply quote & believe his words. I don't convolute them or delete, alter, add subtract, or change them. Sorry, to burst your bubble, Dean, but you are not God. And what does it matter if I forgive you Dean, because according to you, but contrary to Christ, I'm going to heaven anyway! So I can do anything I want! Also, by repeating back to me what I said to you is a little game that children play called; "I know you are but what am I?" This kind of behavior only hurts your credibility more. That apparently is the only type of arugment you have left. Therefore, I will not respond to these childish games.
 
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